Hi, I'm new to Doom and just started playing with a group and I have a few questions.

1) Are oversized figures hit multiple times by weapons like grenades, the BFG or chainsaws? Example, in the last room of the first scenario there are a bunch of oversized figures grouped together. One marine fired at them with the BFG and based on the blast radius of the gun, hit a 5 x 5 square which covered a few of them completely. He then scored 10 hits on the dice which he argued was multiplied by 4 (one for each space the oversized figures covered). I don't think that was correct and we probably just cheated through the last room without knowing it. We tried to consult the rules but couldn't find anything solid either way so we let it be since the night was winding down.

1, b) What if a player with a chainsaw is standing to the side of an oversized figure like a demon dog? Does he essentially deal double damage because of the creatures size?

2) With front guard and scout together, my marine seemed really cool, being able to advance 8 spaces AND attack twice. Could I break up those moves and attacks however I wanted? As in, move 2 spaces, shoot once, move another 3, shoot once, then move elsewhere another 3?

3) We had a hard time staying alive and moving through the game. The first mission took us about 3 and a half hours because we kept getting bogged down by spawned monsters. What's the general strategy for winning as a marine? Do you just ignore the spawned creatures? My issue with ignoring them was that they'd catch up eventually and we'd have to fight them.

3 b) On that note, the invader player was hoarding trites (the spider monsters) near a vent, waiting to release them when we were already surrounded, as a way of dealing the death blow to us at the end. It killed one of us and almost finished us off but we managed to escape with 5 frags and almost all of us near death. How would you guys have dealt with that situation? Is it worth going back to clear out the room of trites? Or just deal with it when the attack happens?

Thanks a lot for your answers in advance. I appreciate anyone willing to give me concise answers.

iceberg84 said:

Everything inside the Blast is hit once for the full rolled damage.

iceberg84 said:

Same as Blast, each fig gets the rolled damage once.

iceberg84 said:

Sure, go for it. Add Killer Instinct for a truely mobile Slayer (+4 move & +1 attack immediately when he kills something).

iceberg84 said:

Sounds like Marines were in kill-mode. They really should be in RUN-mode. Trying to clear everything from the board will result in one thing, Invader win. Marine goal is to escape ('cos they're pansies ).

iceberg84 said:

You block the vent. Voila, no Trites can come through !

iceberg84 said:

Most attacks target a space instead of a figure (which is probably what lead to this question), however, area attacks like Blast and Sweep only hit each figure within range once, no matter how many spaces they occupy in the affected region.

Note that something with the Walkthrough ability, like the chaingun, CAN hit a large figure more than once by walking the attack to an adjacent space occupied by the same creature. This is mainly because walkthrough isn't an area effect.

iceberg84 said:

The marines need to keep moving to survive. It's natural to worry about monsters left behind, but if you go out of your way to kill them you're only buying the Invader time to spawn EVEN MORE some place else. Take shots at anything you can afford to while moving, but keep moving. Don't double back to attack things you've already passed. If the monsters DO catch up, then have at them, but once you get the hang of it, you'll find they don't catch up that often.

Just as everyone said, all attacks in this game except for Blow Through attacks can only hit the target once. Blow Through though does a separate attack for each space "walked" to. Keep in mind the range and LOS for the additional spaces.

As for a good walk-through of Knee Deep In The Dead, take a look at a play-by-forum game I've been playing in (that's just about complete) over on BGG: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/469135/ Marauder and I have done a really good job at covering LOS, removing figs as necessary, running as necessary, stacking armor and other good strategies to make it through the end with I think only 2 frags so far. It should give you some good ideas for strategies.

-shnar

Thanks a lot for the replies! I appreciate it.

Just to be more specific.

Rulebook, oversized invaders section, the second entry says:

"Oversized figures can only be targeted once by a single attack,
even if a blast or sweep attack covers multiple spaces occupied by
the figure. Likewise, oversized figures only take 1 wound from
damaging obstacles per move, no matter how many spaces containing
damaging obstacles they enter."

So does this mean with blow-through, on a 2x2 creature you can

Make initial attack

Remove one dice for first blow-through on the same creature

But youre not allowed to make the "second" blow-through on the same creature? (Which would equate to the 3rd attack)

EpicSausage said:

My memory is fuzzy on this one. I can't recall a rule forbidding you from walking back and forth across the same two spaces, and thus attacking an oversized monster as many times as you can so long as you have LOS to at least two of his spaces. Should be legal, but I have a gut feeling that tells me this isn't allowed. It's been too long since I last played this game. =(

I recently asked this on BGG and the consensus was that you cannot attack the same space twice with Blowthrough, no straffing back and forth. They had rule quotes to back their side up (maybe the FAQ, dunno) and I'm too lazy to go look it up to find out exactly what they said, but it was pretty sound. So no, you cannot attack a Demon 3 time with Blow Through. You could attack a Hell Knight 3 times though, if you had the Sniper ability (can trace LOS through obstacles and figures).

-shnar

As far as I remember the figures do not block line of sight to themselves. The other figures do.

Yes, but you're not targeting the figure, you're targeting the square, and the back half of a Hell Knight is definitely blocked by the front half of the figure.

-shnar

I dont see the diference when you have a sniper ability (that allows to trace LOS through enemy figures) and the rule of oversized invaders that do not block LOS to themselves. In both cases you can see the rear of the invader and attack it. I know that in Doom there is rule that says that you actualy dont attack a figure but a space. Still if you have one oversized invader figure than you can see all his spaces that are in your LOS.

The difference is that the front half is blocking LOS to the back half, unless you're the Sniper, then nothing blocks LOS. Where did you heard that a large monster doesn't block LOS to its rear? I don't think that's stated anywhere in the rules nor FAQ, and as much as I don't like saying this, it flies in the face of "common sense". If you're facing the head of a long, dog-like creature, you can't shoot it's butt because, well, you can't see it.

-shnar

I've read it somewhere - old forum maybe. I common sense you can also say that all the models are in motion and thats why thye dont block line of sight to themselves. And if they do what with that example:

EEP

BB

MM

MM

E - empty square

B - blocking obsrtacle

P - marine player figure

M - Mancubus

Toy are saying that Mancubus and Marine cant see each other? And if mancubus moves one square backwards (mofing his front to the rear position) then he will be able to trace LOS to the Marine.

For me rule that says:

"If attacking with an oversized invader, you
need only trace a line of sight from the center of one of the spaces
it occupies to the center of the space it is targeting."

Allows the Mancubus in starting position (without moving) to shot at marine tracing LOS from his right rear square, an the common sense tels me that if something sees me and shots to me I can see that too.

Stev e- O said:

The last sentence in the definition of Blow-Through on the back cover of the original rules forbids it. "The attacker cannot make multiple blow-though attacks against the same [square] during one attack." (Original wording is "target", but that's confusing, and it's clarified in the FAQ and the Expansion rules.

Jervon, you and Shnar are thinking about back and front differently. In your diagram the Mancubus has line of sight to the Marine from the lower-right square (and vise-versa), since line of sight is only blocked by "walls, closed doors, other figures, and blocking obstacles". (Emphasis added. Quoted from original rules, page 8, first sentence of second paragraph under the heading "Step 2: Confirm Line of Sight".)

Here's what Shnar's saying, though:

P

MM

mm

Common sense says the Marine shouldn't be able to target either of the "m"s unless he's a sniper. I'd house rule that into effect.

Of course, there's also this:

P

EMM

EMm

Three hits on the Mancubus without a sniper. Watch your diagonals!

(Yeah, I know I'm taking this too seriously, but as a referee and a nomic player, I'm a huge rules nerd. You'll have to forgive me.)

Ok, but if the Mancubus have LOS from the lower right space, like you saind - and what I understand the rules - then there is no diffrence in situation from my example and the one when marine is directly facing the ovesized invader. The rules dont change and you still can trace LOS to every space of that invader.

I remember where I read it. The Descent rules, large monsters block LOS to their hind quarters (however LOS is *only* blocked by other figures and obstacles, not your own figure, so you could trace LOS from a rear square if you needed to).

-shnar

Jervon: Yeah, you do have line of sight to the rear of the Mancubus according to the rules. It just doesn't really make any sense, and FFG seem to agree, since they changed the rule in Descent. Like I said, I'd house rule it. Of course, we're only talking about a single red die roll, and there are plenty of other things that don't make sense about line of sight rules. Take a look at Tibs's Line of Sight guide on BGG. ( http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/15988/los_guide-jpg )

Shnar: Do you mind posting the actual wording of the rule? I haven't been able to figure out a way to word it concisely that still allows Jervon's diagram, and I'm curious to see how they did it.

Mind you, this is all Descent, however I think it's applicable to Doom. AFAIK, there's nothing in Doom that says if a large creature blocks LOS to other squares of said creature, so either way you rule it really a houser-ule.

In the Descent ruleboook, pg 10 there's an LOS example. It explicitly states that Sir Valadir does not have LOS to the rear 2 squares of the 2x2 Ogre monster. On the same page, the first paragraph states what blocks LOS:

"Line of sight is blocked by walls, closed doors, other figures,
and blocking obstacles. Thus you cannot, for
instance, shoot directly through one monster to hit another
monster behind it."

Note how it states "other figures". Your *own* figure does not block LOS.

Again, this is for Descent, not Doom, but I feel it is applicable.

-shnar

Ha. Looks like they couldn't figure out a way to word it either. Oh well. Some things are just easier to show with a picture.

That "other figures" line is in the Doom rules, too. You're interpretting it to mean figures other than the one doing the shooting (or whatever the Descent equivalent is. I guess they have bows? Or magic?), but it also excludes the one being shot at, otherwise you can't shoot Jervon's mancubus.

I already warned y'all I'm a rules nerd, right? 'Cause I'm about to start nerding it up again. Just fair warning.

For the sake of simplicity, let's put the mancubus in a corner:

(Diagram extends up/north and right/east infinitely.)

|XXEEEe

|XXEEeX

|XXEeXX

|X x eXXX

|MmXXXX

|WwXXXX

----------------

E=Empty space

e=Empty space along a line diagonal from the corner of the mancubus

X & x=Damaging obstacle

M, m, W, & w=Mancubus

| & -=Wall

Now, the marine, who isn't a sniper, shouldn't be able to hit W from anywhere, and can hit M and m from any of the empty spaces. The question is: from which empty spaces can he hit w ?

The simplest answer is to say that he can hit it from any e and none of the E s. However, that means Jervon's mancubus can shoot the marine, but not be shot at, so that won't work.

The best answer I've come up with is that if a line from the center of the marine's square to the center of w enters m on the north side (opposite the target square), the marine doesn't have LoS; if it enters m on the east side (adjacent to the target square), he does. This means the slope of the line has to be less than 3. (Outside of this simplified corner scenario, the slope of the potential LoS to a mancubus square other than the closest corner (which is (ignoring outside interference) always legal) and the furthest corner (which is always illegal) has to be between 1/3 and 3 or between -1/3 and -3 for the marine to have LoS.) Another way of saying this is that any line that would be a legal LoS if x were a blocking obstacle and m were empty space is a legal LoS. But as I'm sure I've demonstrated quite thoroughly, I don't have any way to express it concisely.

Actually, if you change LoS figure-penetration in general to something along those lines, you clear up a lot of the weirdness. (Shooting between two corners at a multi-square invader would still be unintuitive, though.*) Just use a string or something as a visual LoS to cut out the math and the need for putting the whole thing into words, and say figures only block LoS if the string goes though opposite sides of a square occupied by a figure. Add a visual example, showing it'll go through this figure but not this one, and I think it'll work. It's a few steps toward wargame territory, but it works.

*I think the fix to this is to aim at any point along a line from the center of any square occupied by the figure to the center of any orthagonally adjacent square occupied by the same figure, rather than the center of one of the squares, and then declare both of those squares previous targets and valid places to start walking the shot from for the purposes of blow-through. In a few situations, this'd let you blow-through to squares that would be one square too far away under current rules, but I'm calling that a feature.

In my opinion, there are two possible ways of tracing LOS to oversized figures, and each of them can spoil a game in different ways.

First one is that Marine can not trace LOS to back of Mancubus,

The second one is that, apparantly, he can.

Lets talk about the first one, and here are two diagrams, describing game situations:

|E|E|P| |E|E|P|

|M|M|E| |B|B|E|

|m|m|E| |M|M|E|

|Z|Z|E| |m|m|E|

Where E is empty space,B is blocking obstacle, P stands for Player(Marine), Ms stand for front side of Mancubus and ms for it's rear parts, and Z stands for Zombie.

If we use Descent rule, You should agree, that it doesn't matter if we stand directly in front of Mancubus, or diagonaly to it, anyway we dont see any "m", because M here prevents us from making straight LOS from P to right m

So, I can not throw grenade to right m, and, thus, kill(try to kill, whatever) Mancubus, and BOTH zombies. I am only allowed to throw it to any E, and then try to kill only Mancubus and ONE Zombie.

In the right diagram, Marine can not do anything with Mancubus. So I can not choose two attacks and try to kill it =(

Ok, second one: Marine CAN attack butt of Mancubus, here is diagram of Overloard plan:

|E|E|E|P|

|Z|M|M|E|

|Z|m|m|E|

|Z|Z|Z|E|

Do u see, that you can kill 6(!!!) monsters at a time throwing grenade to left "m"?

So, where is the truth?

ornithopter said:

I don't see how that statement can be true, regardless of what LOS rules you use. If figure A has LoS to figure B (or any part of figure B) then figure B must necessarily have LoS back to figure A (or some part of figure A) from the same space. LoS is bi-directional and figures on both sides use the same rules.

Steve-O said:

Thats not true. Rules say that oversized figure can trace LOS from any of its space, where it IS NOT said that Marine can trace LOS to back of oversized figure. Thats the trick. It seems that LOS in NOT bi-directional.

Botanikys said:

Which comes back to the original question, whether or not an oversized figure blocks LOS to it's "rear" spaces. If it does, then the figure could not attack through it's hind quarters, as it blocks LOS. If it doesn't, then the figure could attack, but a marine could attack it as well, since it's "front" would not block the marine's LOS. In both cases, Steve-O is correct, LOS is bi-directional.

-shnar

Botanikys said:

Pick any one space occupied by an oversized invader. Can you trace LOS from that space to the marine? If the answer is yes, then the marine can most certainly trace LOS backwards to the same space occupied by the oversized invader. If there is nothing obstructing the invader's LOS to the marine, then there cannot be anything obstructing the marine's LOS to the invader. There is nothing in the game that can block LOS in one direction and not block LOS in the exact opposite direction along the same line.

Incidentally, if the answer to the question was no, thent he invader cannot attack the marine from that space either. The invader can trace LOS from any space he occupies, but he must be able to trace LOS from one specific space he occupies in order to attack.

If you're trying to argue that the LOS from the marine back to the chosen space is blocked by the same invader occupying a different space, then guess what? The marine can still trace LOS to the other space that is supposedly blocking his LOS to the first! Either way, both figures can shoot at each other.