Elite Sniper: While attacking, if the target is 5 or more spaces away, you may reroll up to 2 attack dice.

Q: Do you have to select both dice and reroll them at one time, or can you pick one- reroll it- see the result before deciding if you want to reroll the other? I believe it's the former, but wanted to be sure.

It has been debated. My take is that because it is one ability, you need to decide how many dice to roll and then roll them. (Otherwise the ability would probably say "may reroll 1 die. This ability may be used upto twice per attack.".)

There is a chance that the use of the term 'upto' may imply something we have not come across in other abilities, but the above argument should crush that chance pretty well.

There's a clause saying that each dice can only be re-rolled once per attack (RRG 5). An ability would need to explicity say "Re-roll a die, even if it has already been re-rolled" or "Abilities can cause the re-rolled die to be re-rolled" to get around that.

Each die can be only rerolled once. That's not what the OP means (or writes) though. The question is: if I choose to reroll one die, can I choose to reroll the other (not rerolled) die after seeing the result of the first?

Edit: To me Elite Sniper is a single ability granting a (single) reroll of 1 or 2 dice. Otherwise it would be written "while attacking, if the target space is 5 or more spaces away, you may reroll 1 attack die. This ability can be used up to twice per attack."

There is nothing in the rules that allow me to change my already made decision after new information becomes available.

In the other FFG games that use the same wording, all Rolls (and Rerolls) are performed at the same time.

There is no one-after-the-other when it comes to dice.

You can select 0, 1 or 2. But think of "Select" as "Pick up" that many dice. Once you pick it up, it has to be rolled.


And this applies in ignorance as to weather a Die which has been Rerolled cannot be rerolled again (X-Wing), or wether a Die Rerolled can be Rerolled again (Armada)...

We debated this in another thread earlier:

By the strict reading of the rules there is nothing to prevent a player from rerolling one die, looking at the results and then choosing to reroll a 2nd die (but not the one that was already rerolled). There is no rule that says all the dice to be rerolled have to be done at the same time (there is one for the initial dice rolls, but not for rerolls). Precedent from other FFG games does not apply here. There is no rule that says you have to decide all elements of an ability before implementing any of them (for instance if I play hit and run I don't have to decide how/if to spend my movement points until after I fully resolve the attack), and the text of the ability does not specify that you have to decide to reroll both before rerolling either of them - if that was the intent then it would read better like "While attacking, Choose up to 2 of your attack dice then you may reroll those dice". If that had been the wording it would be clear you have to choose both before seeing any results. But the simple wording they chose ("while attacking, if the target space is 5 or more spaces away, you may reroll up to 2 attack dice") indicates that you should be able to reroll one, look at the result, then reroll the second if you so choose (as long as it is done sequentially).

Now FFG may have intended it to be a single decision, and they may FAQ it later to indicate so, but until then I would rule it is legal to reroll one die, look at the results, then choose to reroll a 2nd die.

You can roll and look at the results and then roll again. Here's why:

1. Not all rerolls have to trigger at the same time. For example the HK's can reroll the opponents defense die and then reroll one of their attack die with Versatile Weaponry and Targeting computer. Another example, you can reroll an attack die with targeting computer, then play "mitigate" to reroll a second attack die after you've seen the results. The only stipulation is that all rerolls must occur in "step 3: rerolls" of the attack and all attacker triggered rerolls (including versatile weaponry on the HK's) must occur before the defender voluntarily rerolls his defense dice.

2. Not all abilities trigger in the same timing window. Elite sniper reads. "While attacking, if the target space is 5 or more spaces away, you may reroll up to 2 attack dice." There are 2 rules for timing of abilities and they are different depending if the ability says "Use" or not. If the ability says "USE" aka "use while attacking" the rule is:

If an ability is “used,” it can be triggered multiple times each round, but it can only be triggered once per timing instance. For example, an ability that says, “Use while attacking to apply +1 H to the attack results,” can only be triggered once during each attack. RRG pg 2

But there are abilities (special actions are a subset of "abilities" RRG pg. 2) such as "Brutality" and "General's Orders" (Weiss) that follow a different rule for using abilities, namely that they persist over several timing windows. For example, with brutality you attack one figure at a time, not simultaneously. These attacks can be interrupted by "counter attack" or "parting shot" etc. but you still get to finish using brutality even though several timing windows have passed. "General's Orders" makes you move two figures, but these moves occur one at a time and can also be interrupted by things like "slippery target".

3. The other rule for abilities timing windows is on RRG pg. 6:

Any ability that is resolved “while attacking” or “while defending” can be used at any point during the attack with the following exceptions:

-- An ability that adds dice to a dice pool can only be used immediately before step 2 of the attack.

-- An ability that allows a player to reroll dice can only be used during step 3 of the attack.

-- An ability that allows a player to modify die results can only be used during step 4 of the attack.

So in conclusion, if the designers wanted you to roll both die simultaneously they would word elite sniper "Use while attacking to reroll up to 2 attack dice". Since the "USE" keyword is not there, you can reroll both die one at a time just like brutality occurs one attack at a time.

1. Elite Sniper is a single ability. You saying separate abilities (Versatile Weaponry and Targeting Computer) follow the timing resolution rules is not an argument for Elite Sniper counting as two abilities.

The ability including use or not does not matter, the "use" is red herring. Any ability can only be used once per timing instance (unless explicitly specified otherwise). This has been made clear many times. (I'm too lazy to look up the threads now.)

Wait for the next FAQ.

The intent is to choose 0, 1, or 2 dice to reroll, then reroll the chosen dice. And this is supported by the rules.

For what it's worth, I'm with a1bert on this one.

When elite sniper timing window comes up and triggers, it must be resolved at that time. Resolving that ability is rerolling UP TO 2 dice and that's it. Once your reroll has happened , whether that be 0, 1, or 2 dice, elite sniper is done.

Your examples using Brutality aren't applicable in this case because that ability (and others you mentioned) specially say to perform two attacks. Elite sniper does not say to perform 2 rerolls, it says - and im paraphasing a tiny bit, perform a reroll with up to 2 dice. 0 is up to 2, 1 is up to 2, and 2 is up to 2.

HK assassins allow the die to be rerolled at different times simply because those rerolls are triggered by different abilities, each of which provides the player to do a reroll. 2 triggers, 2 rerolls.

23 minutes ago, Core said:

For what it's worth, I'm with a1bert on this one.

When elite sniper timing window comes up and triggers, it must be resolved at that time. Resolving that ability is rerolling UP TO 2 dice and that's it. Once your reroll has happened , whether that be 0, 1, or 2 dice, elite sniper is done.

Your examples using Brutality aren't applicable in this case because that ability (and others you mentioned) specially say to perform two attacks. Elite sniper does not say to perform 2 rerolls, it says - and im paraphasing a tiny bit, perform a reroll with up to 2 dice. 0 is up to 2, 1 is up to 2, and 2 is up to 2.

HK assassins allow the die to be rerolled at different times simply because those rerolls are triggered by different abilities, each of which provides the player to do a reroll. 2 triggers, 2 rerolls.

The elite sniper doesn't say "perform a reroll" (implying one) it says you may reroll up to two dice. The "up to" has no bearing on the timing. As far as the comparison to Brutality it says perform two attacks but doesn't specify that they should be one after another. If you interpreted as " Any ability can only be used once per timing instance" as albert said then both attacks would have to be performed simultaneously. This is absolutely not the case.

As far as the separate abilities for rerolling I only brought those up to prove that there are indisputable cases in which multiple attack dice are rerolled at separate timing instances, since some people have argued that all attack die rerolls must occur at the same time.

I don't see how "use" is a red herring. It's written in quotation marks in the RRG, with an example that starts with "Use while attacking" (which easily could have been the beginning of "elite sniper" instead of just "while attacking")

Not this whole thing again. I submitted a rules question to FFG a week or two ago but have not received a reply.

What it boils down to is that you want to have your cake and eat it too. There is a blatant refusal here to acknowledge that you are triggering one ability and then triggering it a second time, all under the guise that you are simply trying to drag out your timing instance until you are fully satisfied.

In the example of Elite Sniper, when you say "I will re-roll this one die," you have now used that ability and decided to only re-roll one die (out of 0, 1, or 2). By deciding, after your timing instance, to trigger Elite Sniper again, you are now using the ability more than once and no where in the rules is that permitted within the same attack. The logic "it doesn't say I can't do that" doesn't apply when no where in the rules does it say you can use an ability multiple times.

For what it's worth locally, everyone I have spoken to has formed a consensus on how this should be played. Hopefully FFG can release a FAQ soon with a similar ruling. Unfortunately, it is still tournament session and Worlds is coming up, I would hate to sit across from someone with such a bent interpretation, or hear about that person using this rules improperly against a fellow player.

I don't remember claiming that you cannot reroll dice from separate abilities one after another. On the contrary. Abilities with the same trigger are resolved in the timing resolution order and abilities from the same side are resolved in the order of the controller's choosing. https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1631857/ability-resolution-order-during-attacks

Brutality is an ability, you cannot resolve Brutality twice in the same timing instance (during the same action spent). (And explicitly you cannot perform the same special action twice in the same activation.) When you perform the Brutality ability, you must perform two attacks. Once you have started to resolve Brutality, you must perform both attacks if possible. You cannot perform one attack and then decide to not perform the other. You must perform the other attack if you can.

Special Situations Regarding Attacks implies that all while attacking / while defending abilities can only be used once per attack, and Surges is explicit that surge abilities can be used only once per timing instance.

I'm not arguing to be to right or to win an argument. I have been wrong in the past and I am quick to admit it. I'm saying that this how I interpret how the resolve Elite Sniper with all the knowledge I can accumulated from my time with Imperial Assault. The current technical editor of Imperial Assault agrees, and with what information I have, that is how it has been intended, and how will be ruled. It will almost certainly be included in the next FAQ. (Hopefully soon.)

I would be very interested to know of any ability without "use" which can be performed more than once during the same trigger. (Discounting abilities that explicitly say they can be used more than once.)

(Note that class and item cards - and others, like skirmish upgrade attachments - can have more than one ability separated by lines although the card has only one name.)

So I went searching through abilities to find any abilities that are any bit similar to this situation. Criteria looking for: The term upto, single ability, no "then" clause.

The 3 closest abilities I found were:

1) General Weiss General's Orders: (Choose up to 2 other friendly figures on the map, those figures may interrupt to perform a move). This is the closest ability I can see to the elite ranger reroll (and even this is a stretch). The question is can you move one figure, then choose a 2nd figure to move - or do you have to select both figures first them move the 1st then move the 2nd? I know the way I've always seen this played by players it was the former.

2) Kayn Somos Firing Squad (choose up to 2 adj friendly troopers. Each of those figures may interrupt to perform an attack targeting the same figure). Again very similar to Weiss's ability, however in this case because the stakes are higher and the choices a lot more limited (target is already selected and there usually isn't more than 2 choices of figures that are eligible) I tend to see more people declare the 2 figures before performing either attack (although sometimes they don't - its about 50/50).

3) Bantha Rider's Trample (Choose up to 3 adj hostile figures and roll 1 red die). Not quite the same but if you read this you choose the figures and roll the die at the same time, so there is no order specified between them. Thus you could say roll the die then decide on the 3 figures to suffer that damage. Now common sense dictates that is wrong, that you should decide the figures first then roll the die - but the ability doesn't specify that timing. I've not seen nor heard of anyone attempting to play this as roll the die then declare the targets.

Out of the whole pool of abilities we have those 3 are the closest, and none of those are inside an attack window. So in reality this ability is unique at this point. The wording on it is poor and does not address this cleanly. The rules have a level ambiquity around this, so I'm going to have to look at the similar abilities and how they are used. We've got one used solely one way, one used almost solely the other way, and the 3rd somewhere in the middle - so no real help there.

Each locality is going to have to come to an agreement on this individually until we get an official answer from FFG (either via email or updated FAQ).

2 hours ago, roman2440 said:

The 3 closest abilities I found were:

1) General Weiss General's Orders: (Choose up to 2 other friendly figures on the map, those figures may interrupt to perform a move).

2) Kayn Somos Firing Squad (choose up to 2 adj friendly troopers. Each of those figures may interrupt to perform an attack targeting the same figure).

3) Bantha Rider's Trample (Choose up to 3 adj hostile figures and roll 1 red die).

I agree that, as you mentioned, all three are outside of performing an attack so they are not the best examples. That being said though, all three of these abilities do require you to declare "up to" that number of figures, and then proceed to the remainder of their respective rule.

1) General's Orders requires you to "Choose up to two figures." Full stop. So you cannot begin moving figures until you have chosen 0, 1, or 2 figures.

2) Firing Squad, likewise, requires you to select two friendly Troopers. You may only perform an attack with the first one after establishing which of the 0, 1, or 2 figures you decided to choose.

3) Trample is pretty easy as you wouldn't choose one figure, roll 1 red die, choose another figure, roll a different red die, etc. etc.

I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it to, I'm just trying to explain how I'm interpreting that rule. You say you're triggering the ability twice, but I say you're triggering it once and the timing window for the two rererollsis not instantaneous, it is a small window. Just like when you trigger brutality the timing window for performing the two attacks is not instantaneous.

Most of the abilities in the game do not have timing windows, they have triggers. The term timing window does not actually exist in Imperial Assault. (The rules talk about timing instance.)

Practically only the "during your activation" abilities have flexible timing for triggering them.

When an ability triggers, you perform the ability in full - everything that's possible to perform/resolve, then you return to the trigger, so can perform other abilities with the same trigger. Or you can pass on the trigger by activating an ability with a different trigger.

You can consider actions to be abilities you trigger during your activation.

Triggering is instantaneous but using the ability is sometimes not instantaneous. I'm not arguing that triggering is a window, I'm arguing once you trigger an ability you don't always resolve it all at once, just like when you trigger brutality you don't resolve it all at once.

If Vinto's rapid fire said "you may perform up to two attacks" I think we'd all agree you would perform one and then have the option to perform another. Correct me if you'd interpret that differently

And if Elite Sniper were worded "... you may perform a reroll of up to 2 attack dice."we would not be talking about it either, right?

True lol that would be very clear. But how is the Vinto example different

Because it is possible to perform a reroll with 2 dice, but it is not possible for one attack to target two figures at once.

Well at least I think you understand why I have this interpretation now even if you disagree. Hopefully ff will clear this up soon

On 1/28/2017 at 8:11 AM, brettpkelly said:

Triggering is instantaneous but using the ability is sometimes not instantaneous. I'm not arguing that triggering is a window, I'm arguing once you trigger an ability you don't always resolve it all at once, just like when you trigger brutality you don't resolve it all at once.

The meaning and intent seems clear to me and the other board members have convincingly confirmed the correct ruling.

Triggering the ability can be fully resolved in one reroll- "I am resolving the ability by choosing to reroll one die"- and then the results are seen. The trigger event has passed. Your argument is simply double triggers the same event when the intent is clear using examples that insist on events that cannot be resolved at the same time, choosing to reroll 2 die can be resolved in one instance because you may choose 0, 1, or 2 die. Rerolling only 1 resolves elite sniping fully as all requirements are met and the trigger has now past.

Brutality, "perform two attacks, each attack must have a different target". Do you have to declare your targets before you do the attacks? Because you obviously can do that just like you can do two rerolls at the same time. If you must simply because you can consider the following scenarios:

• Rancor declares "Brutality" triggering the ability. The rancor declares both of his targets (because you can do that at the same time). The rancor does his first attack and cleaves to kill his second target. The Rancor can now no longer perform his second attack against a third target because that would be triggering the brutality ability again (by your definition).
• Vinto declares "Rapid Fire" and says he wants to attack the same figure twice (because you can declare attacks simultaneously). Vinto kills his target in the first attack and therefore cannot use his second attack.

OK, so that seems wrong. Obviously, you'd want to see the results of your first attack before you determine even the target of the second attack. Lets say that you don't have to declare your targets at the same time, but you DO have to declare that you are doing two attacks for brutality and rapid fire. That means you can't do one attack and then decide not to use your second attack. Consider the following scenarios:

• There are 2 hostile figures and 1 door that are valid targets of an attack. The rancor declares "brutality" and therefore must complete 2 attack actions if possible. The rancor kills the 2 hostile figures in his first attack with "cleave". The rancor now must attack the door, even if he doesn't want to.
• There is 1 hostile figure and a door that are valid targets of an attack. Vinto uses "rapid fire" which states "perform 2 attacks". Vinto kills the hostile figure in his first attack. Vinto now must target the door, even if he doesn't want to.

This also seems wrong to me. Just because you CAN declare 2 attacks at the same time and just because the abilities say "perform 2 attacks", doesn't mean you MUST declare them both at the same time, nor do you have to complete the second one (or reroll the second die in our comparable dice roll). Just because you can reroll them both at the same time doesn't mean you must. Also, it wouldn't be "impossible" to do two attacks at the same time, just unwieldy. Simultaneous attacks happen all the time in "Descent" which IA is based on.

Declare target is the first step of an attack. You cannot do that beforehand, although you may have additional restrictions during the declare target step from abilities or from mission rules.

If the ability does not say the part is optional, then it is mandatory. If you can perform a part of an ability, you must perform it.