Running on an MC-30 Torpedo Frigate.

I want to put ELs on my frigates to give them a nasty front arc to serve as wingmen to my Liberty, but at 13 points for two extra dice vs. 5 points for APTs, I don't know if it's worth it.

If I can get a double arc with APTs, that is almost two guaranteed extra *crits* through APTs (with EO, of course), whereas the two extra dice on the front are an average of three extra damage. Of course double-arcing takes some skillful flying, so I won't get that every firing turn.

Any thoughts on this?

similar rewards, but you save 8 points with APT. So think of it as, APT + Admonition, or expanded launchers?

Depends on your Admiral, too. If you're playing Dodonna, APT's all day every day to fish for the crits you want.

I don't take expanded launchers because I also enjoy the challenge of trying to line up double broadsides on the same ship with MC30 (hitting the flank of almost any ship, T Bone style), or hitting the front (or rear) of a large ship*

*You can also technically accomplish this on front/rear of medium size ship but....good luck with that.

Depends on your Admiral, too. If you're playing Dodonna, APT's all day every day to fish for the crits you want.

I don't take expanded launchers because I also enjoy the challenge of trying to line up double broadsides on the same ship with MC30 (hitting the flank of almost any ship, T Bone style), or hitting the front (or rear) of a large ship*

*You can also technically accomplish this on front/rear of medium size ship but....good luck with that.

Running it with Madine for the crazy maneuverability of the Liberty.

Once Sato comes out EL will be very, very good on the scout or torpedo frigate since 2 of the dice can now change. Imagine a front arc with the same as your side arcs at close and 3 red from long range. Personally though for now APT is the best choice since it is so cheap and is 1 extra damage.

Depends on your Admiral, too. If you're playing Dodonna, APT's all day every day to fish for the crits you want.

I don't take expanded launchers because I also enjoy the challenge of trying to line up double broadsides on the same ship with MC30 (hitting the flank of almost any ship, T Bone style), or hitting the front (or rear) of a large ship*

*You can also technically accomplish this on front/rear of medium size ship but....good luck with that.

Running it with Madine for the crazy maneuverability of the Liberty.

Ok cool, so just out of curiousity, what do you mean when you said you are using the MC30 as "Wingman" to Liberty? Liberty with Madine has a lot of maneuverability. He doesn't need a wingman, in fact neither ship needs a Wingman. They both have the speed, maneuverability and staying power (depending on what you're up against and how you deploy) to get around the back of your opponent and just reign all kinds of hell. I probably wouldn't deploy these 2 ships anywhere near each other. And being thusly not bound to any "wingman" (read: adjacent) positioning of the MC30, I would not worry about Expanded Launchers, and would default to APTs.

Once Sato comes out EL will be very, very good on the scout or torpedo frigate since 2 of the dice can now change. Imagine a front arc with the same as your side arcs at close and 3 red from long range. Personally though for now APT is the best choice since it is so cheap and is 1 extra damage.

You cant alter dice with Sato to add range. You need to be able to gather those black dice into your attack pool before replacing.

Depends on your Admiral, too. If you're playing Dodonna, APT's all day every day to fish for the crits you want.

I don't take expanded launchers because I also enjoy the challenge of trying to line up double broadsides on the same ship with MC30 (hitting the flank of almost any ship, T Bone style), or hitting the front (or rear) of a large ship*

*You can also technically accomplish this on front/rear of medium size ship but....good luck with that.

Running it with Madine for the crazy maneuverability of the Liberty.

Ok cool, so just out of curiousity, what do you mean when you said you are using the MC30 as "Wingman" to Liberty? Liberty with Madine has a lot of maneuverability. He doesn't need a wingman, in fact neither ship needs a Wingman. They both have the speed, maneuverability and staying power (depending on what you're up against and how you deploy) to get around the back of your opponent and just reign all kinds of hell. I probably wouldn't deploy these 2 ships anywhere near each other. And being thusly not bound to any "wingman" (read: adjacent) positioning of the MC30, I would not worry about Expanded Launchers, and would default to APTs.

I definitely see your point, but even as maneuverable as she is, the Liberty is liable to block (especially with the flotillas out now). In the right circumstances, I'd have my MC-30 flying close on the flank of my Liberty if I thought it was threatened by the opponent's build or setup.

Expanded Launchers are an extra 2.5 damage on average from the front arc with Ordinance Experts

APT is an extra .8 - 1.0 damage per arc with Ordinance Experts.

Depends on your Admiral, too. If you're playing Dodonna, APT's all day every day to fish for the crits you want.

I don't take expanded launchers because I also enjoy the challenge of trying to line up double broadsides on the same ship with MC30 (hitting the flank of almost any ship, T Bone style), or hitting the front (or rear) of a large ship*

*You can also technically accomplish this on front/rear of medium size ship but....good luck with that.

Running it with Madine for the crazy maneuverability of the Liberty.

Ok cool, so just out of curiousity, what do you mean when you said you are using the MC30 as "Wingman" to Liberty? Liberty with Madine has a lot of maneuverability. He doesn't need a wingman, in fact neither ship needs a Wingman. They both have the speed, maneuverability and staying power (depending on what you're up against and how you deploy) to get around the back of your opponent and just reign all kinds of hell. I probably wouldn't deploy these 2 ships anywhere near each other. And being thusly not bound to any "wingman" (read: adjacent) positioning of the MC30, I would not worry about Expanded Launchers, and would default to APTs.

I definitely see your point, but even as maneuverable as she is, the Liberty is liable to block (especially with the flotillas out now). In the right circumstances, I'd have my MC-30 flying close on the flank of my Liberty if I thought it was threatened by the opponent's build or setup.

Well, it's your game and your ships, so do as you will. But even in this scenario, I don't see it as cost effective alternative to Ordnance experts and APTs (and then taking a concentrate fire command for the turn you expect to be in combat).

Yeah, I watched a game where a guy with a bomber list and 2 liberties let a demolisher into his flank. Those libs got flattened so fast it wasn't pretty.

I like expanded launchers, while they are expensive they increase your potential damage by 4 and they are great in combination with another ship attacking at long range like a salvation neb or a few trc90s, if you can encourage an opponent to either spend tokens or spend shields a subsequent double arc with ELs can be fatal.

I've seen them used to good effect on a demolisher as the speed 4 pounce can be painful and 4 more black dice with OEs across a triple tap can often do more to kill a ship than those potential 3 extra cards (8 potential damage added....)

Once Sato comes out EL will be very, very good on the scout or torpedo frigate since 2 of the dice can now change. Imagine a front arc with the same as your side arcs at close and 3 red from long range. Personally though for now APT is the best choice since it is so cheap and is 1 extra damage.

You cant alter dice with Sato to add range. You need to be able to gather those black dice into your attack pool before replacing.

Ahh dang I misinterpreted his ability then, thought it was just dice in your arc not the pool. Back to the drawing board!

APT is an extra .8 - 1.0 damage per arc with Ordinance Experts.

Incorrect. APT does 1 damage if you roll a crit. Therefore, the expected damage of APT is entirely dependent on your chance to roll a crit. The formula would be p*1 where p equals your probability to roll a crit.

Using the OP's MC30 as an example, there are 3 black die on the sides and 2 black on the front.

The Expected Damage of APT on a Side Arc shot with Ordinance Experts would be (3 Choose 1)*(.25^1 *.75^2) + .25 * (3 Choose 1) * (.25^1 *.75^2) = .5273 Damage

The Expected Damage of APT on a Front Arc shot with Ordinance Experts would be (2 choose 1)*(.25^1*.75^1) + .25* (2 choose 1)*(.25^1*.75^1) = .4687 Damage

Therefore, for a double arc'ed shot on a MC30, APT will add .9960 Damage and the chance to get crit effects through shields.

APT is an extra .8 - 1.0 damage per arc with Ordinance Experts.

Incorrect. APT does 1 damage if you roll a crit. Therefore, the expected damage of APT is entirely dependent on your chance to roll a crit. The formula would be p*1 where p equals your probability to roll a crit.

Using the OP's MC30 as an example, there are 3 black die on the sides and 2 black on the front.

The Expected Damage of APT on a Side Arc shot with Ordinance Experts would be (3 Choose 1)*(.25^1 *.75^2) + .25 * (3 Choose 1) * (.25^1 *.75^2) = .5273 Damage

The Expected Damage of APT on a Front Arc shot with Ordinance Experts would be (2 choose 1)*(.25^1*.75^1) + .25* (2 choose 1)*(.25^1*.75^1) = .3515 Damage

Therefore, for a double arc'ed shot on a MC30, APT will add .8788 Damage and the chance to get crit effects through shields. Since the 2.5 Damage of EL is 184% larger than .8788 and the 12 point cost of EL is only 140% larger than 5 point cost of APT, Expanded Launchers are actually undercosted.

Biggs, I think you just got frekkin pwned. Like...circa 2005 pwned.

Watch out, Maths, there's a new sheriff in town and he's Latin.*

*Italy/Roman empire Latin, not South-central America latin.

In targeting scrambler world maybe EL, sensor teams, xi7. Just block braces and redirects and use more dice to hopefully get damage through... targeting scrambler will often times just nullify your crit effects, and then you aren't doing enough damage to even warrant the use of a brace, the damage gets redirected and you can't get it into the hull... worst case if you run el,st,xi7 is that he doesn't bring targeting scrambler, and your upgrades are still good... if he does bring scrambler, good luck getting apt's to stick

APT is an extra .8 - 1.0 damage per arc with Ordinance Experts.

Incorrect. APT does 1 damage if you roll a crit. Therefore, the expected damage of APT is entirely dependent on your chance to roll a crit. The formula would be p*1 where p equals your probability to roll a crit.

Using the OP's MC30 as an example, there are 3 black die on the sides and 2 black on the front.

The Expected Damage of APT on a Side Arc shot with Ordinance Experts would be (3 Choose 1)*(.25^1 *.75^2) + .25 * (3 Choose 1) * (.25^1 *.75^2) = .5273 Damage

The Expected Damage of APT on a Front Arc shot with Ordinance Experts would be (2 choose 1)*(.25^1*.75^1) + .25* (2 choose 1)*(.25^1*.75^1) = .4687 Damage

Therefore, for a double arc'ed shot on a MC30, APT will add .9960 Damage and the chance to get crit effects through shields.

Hello, I'm not a math buff but I would appreciate your comments on how I was doing it...

Chance of hit/crit on side arc of mc30 rolling 3 blacks with ordnance experts:

1-(.75x.75x.75)^2=.822. Or 82.2%

Is that correct??? That's the percent chance of rolling all 3 dice as hits or blanks, then rolling all hits or blanks again with oe, and then subtracting from 1 to give us our chance of rolling a hit/crit... is that right?

That's correct for that particular situation skycake! (Which is to say, the probability of getting at least 1 hit/crit is equal to 1 minus the probability of not getting any)

When you start throwing in selective rerolls, the equations get much, much more complex if you are instead thinking about predicting damage/when to re-roll a die.

In short, however, you should pretty much always reroll black hits if you have yet to trigger your ordnance crit all other things being equal.

APT is an extra .8 - 1.0 damage per arc with Ordinance Experts.

Incorrect. APT does 1 damage if you roll a crit. Therefore, the expected damage of APT is entirely dependent on your chance to roll a crit. The formula would be p*1 where p equals your probability to roll a crit.

Using the OP's MC30 as an example, there are 3 black die on the sides and 2 black on the front.

The Expected Damage of APT on a Side Arc shot with Ordinance Experts would be (3 Choose 1)*(.25^1 *.75^2) + .25 * (3 Choose 1) * (.25^1 *.75^2) = .5273 Damage

The Expected Damage of APT on a Front Arc shot with Ordinance Experts would be (2 choose 1)*(.25^1*.75^1) + .25* (2 choose 1)*(.25^1*.75^1) = .3515 Damage

Therefore, for a double arc'ed shot on a MC30, APT will add .8788 Damage and the chance to get crit effects through shields. Since the 2.5 Damage of EL is 184% larger than .8788 and the 12 point cost of EL is only 140% larger than 5 point cost of APT, Expanded Launchers are actually undercosted.

Biggs, I think you just got frekkin pwned. Like...circa 2005 pwned.

Watch out, Maths, there's a new sheriff in town and he's Latin.*

*Italy/Roman empire Latin, not South-central America latin.

That math is wrong. It is considerably easier to calculate odds of not rolling a crit and subtract from one.

75% chance of no crit. 3 dice, each of which can be rerolled if needed. So no difference between that and rolling 6 dice once IF WE CONSIDER NOTHING ELSE. 1-.75^6. So 82.2% chance of crit.

For 2 black dice, 1-.75^4=68%

So APT+OE averages closer to 1.5 damage added. 9 points for 1.5 compared to 17 for 2.5

Right... So 1.5 expected damage for apt versus 2.5 expected for el... now before wave 4, there didn't really exist a repeatable consistent way to interact with apt... if your opponent triggers it there was nothing you could do, unless lando... but now there are targeting scramblers... and I will contend that not only is it going to be very popular, it is perhaps the best reason to take an interdictor... and if that becomes the meta, the 1.5 expected damage from apt should diminish substantially... In which case, el may become more on par with apt, or perhaps stronger altogether... but I dunno, face up crits to the hull are very good, especially with dodonna, and it can be hard to quantify their value... In which case perhaps apt is what you should take, dam the meta, and Pray you don't run into scramblers

APT is an extra .8 - 1.0 damage per arc with Ordinance Experts.

Incorrect. APT does 1 damage if you roll a crit. Therefore, the expected damage of APT is entirely dependent on your chance to roll a crit. The formula would be p*1 where p equals your probability to roll a crit.

Using the OP's MC30 as an example, there are 3 black die on the sides and 2 black on the front.

The Expected Damage of APT on a Side Arc shot with Ordinance Experts would be (3 Choose 1)*(.25^1 *.75^2) + .25 * (3 Choose 1) * (.25^1 *.75^2) = .5273 Damage

The Expected Damage of APT on a Front Arc shot with Ordinance Experts would be (2 choose 1)*(.25^1*.75^1) + .25* (2 choose 1)*(.25^1*.75^1) = .3515 Damage

Therefore, for a double arc'ed shot on a MC30, APT will add .8788 Damage and the chance to get crit effects through shields. Since the 2.5 Damage of EL is 184% larger than .8788 and the 12 point cost of EL is only 140% larger than 5 point cost of APT, Expanded Launchers are actually undercosted.

Biggs, I think you just got frekkin pwned. Like...circa 2005 pwned.

Watch out, Maths, there's a new sheriff in town and he's Latin.*

*Italy/Roman empire Latin, not South-central America latin.

That math is wrong. It is considerably easier to calculate odds of not rolling a crit and subtract from one.

75% chance of no crit. 3 dice, each of which can be rerolled if needed. So no difference between that and rolling 6 dice once IF WE CONSIDER NOTHING ELSE. 1-.75^6. So 82.2% chance of crit.

For 2 black dice, 1-.75^4=68%

So APT+OE averages closer to 1.5 damage added. 9 points for 1.5 compared to 17 for 2.5

Also, depending how far down the rabbit hole we want to go, we can further say that APT gives you a 8/52 chance of Structural Damage, 2/52 of Shield Failure, and 2/52 of Projector Misaligned. We could then pull from Schmitty's regionals data to get a rough estimate of proportional representation of ships with contains, and also the average value of maximum shield facings (weighed for each ship's proportional representation, of course) to find out the average damage value of PM (I'd wager it's around 3). Then we can multiply the likelihood of incidence of PM with the average max shield facing, add that to (2/52*2+2/52*1+1), then multiply the result by the incidence of contain (to account for the number of times ExL won't get that crit through even if it punches through the shields). Then we also need to adjust for ExL's chance of not even punching through the shields, which would have to account for defense tokens and shields AND average damage. And all this is assuming we're attacking an untouched ship.

I'm not doing all that math on my phone while I sit here waiting for a piss test.

More to the point, you also need to account for the flexibility in attack facing the APT gives you over OE. It is very common that I would rather attack out of both side arcs of my MC30 than out a double arc or just the front. I build my MC30's as small-ship bullieS: OE, H9, and APT means you have a very good chance to one-shot CR90's, Raiders, and flotillas as long as you can dredge up that APT crit. That means that if you can split two targets, one in each side arc, you threaten the survival of two ships in one turn. That is huge, and is much more difficult to pull off with ExL. On the other hand, I can also double-arc a single larger ship to put through almost the same average damage as the ExL, for WAY cheaper.

Both are valid: ExL can definitely give you some serious punch, and APT will fail you--generally only when it's really important that they hit. In the end, you just gotta judge for yourself which upgrade suits you better.

But if you pick ExL, you're wrong.

Expanded Launchers also have more synergy with Intel Officer in a double-arc situation. Go for the big damage from one attack and use Intel Officer on the Brace. Then follow up with the next attack at similar potency. One way or the other, your opponent is getting only one use of his Brace against both attacks*. With APTs, you may not trigger the crit as reliably as you'd like and the amount of raw damage isn't high enough to necessarily make the Intel Officer choice a tough one for your opponent. Keep in mind, however, that Intel+Expanded Launchers is a hefty price tag while APTs or ACMs are much more affordable all on their own.

*Unless it's a double-Brace ship like a Nebulon-B or Liberty, mind you.

APT is an extra .8 - 1.0 damage per arc with Ordinance Experts.

Incorrect. APT does 1 damage if you roll a crit. Therefore, the expected damage of APT is entirely dependent on your chance to roll a crit. The formula would be p*1 where p equals your probability to roll a crit.

Using the OP's MC30 as an example, there are 3 black die on the sides and 2 black on the front.

The Expected Damage of APT on a Side Arc shot with Ordinance Experts would be (3 Choose 1)*(.25^1 *.75^2) + .25 * (3 Choose 1) * (.25^1 *.75^2) = .5273 Damage

The Expected Damage of APT on a Front Arc shot with Ordinance Experts would be (2 choose 1)*(.25^1*.75^1) + .25* (2 choose 1)*(.25^1*.75^1) = .3515 Damage

Therefore, for a double arc'ed shot on a MC30, APT will add .8788 Damage and the chance to get crit effects through shields. Since the 2.5 Damage of EL is 184% larger than .8788 and the 12 point cost of EL is only 140% larger than 5 point cost of APT, Expanded Launchers are actually undercosted.

Biggs, I think you just got frekkin pwned. Like...circa 2005 pwned.

Watch out, Maths, there's a new sheriff in town and he's Latin.*

*Italy/Roman empire Latin, not South-central America latin.

That math is wrong. It is considerably easier to calculate odds of not rolling a crit and subtract from one.

75% chance of no crit. 3 dice, each of which can be rerolled if needed. So no difference between that and rolling 6 dice once IF WE CONSIDER NOTHING ELSE. 1-.75^6. So 82.2% chance of crit.

For 2 black dice, 1-.75^4=68%

So APT+OE averages closer to 1.5 damage added. 9 points for 1.5 compared to 17 for 2.5

Also, depending how far down the rabbit hole we want to go, we can further say that APT gives you a 8/52 chance of Structural Damage, 2/52 of Shield Failure, and 2/52 of Projector Misaligned. We could then pull from Schmitty's regionals data to get a rough estimate of proportional representation of ships with contains, and also the average value of maximum shield facings (weighed for each ship's proportional representation, of course) to find out the average damage value of PM (I'd wager it's around 3). Then we can multiply the likelihood of incidence of PM with the average max shield facing, add that to (2/52*2+2/52*1+1), then multiply the result by the incidence of contain (to account for the number of times ExL won't get that crit through even if it punches through the shields). Then we also need to adjust for ExL's chance of not even punching through the shields, which would have to account for defense tokens and shields AND average damage. And all this is assuming we're attacking an untouched ship.

You forgot Dodonna!

APT is an extra .8 - 1.0 damage per arc with Ordinance Experts.

Incorrect. APT does 1 damage if you roll a crit. Therefore, the expected damage of APT is entirely dependent on your chance to roll a crit. The formula would be p*1 where p equals your probability to roll a crit.

Using the OP's MC30 as an example, there are 3 black die on the sides and 2 black on the front.

The Expected Damage of APT on a Side Arc shot with Ordinance Experts would be (3 Choose 1)*(.25^1 *.75^2) + .25 * (3 Choose 1) * (.25^1 *.75^2) = .5273 Damage

The Expected Damage of APT on a Front Arc shot with Ordinance Experts would be (2 choose 1)*(.25^1*.75^1) + .25* (2 choose 1)*(.25^1*.75^1) = .3515 Damage

Therefore, for a double arc'ed shot on a MC30, APT will add .8788 Damage and the chance to get crit effects through shields. Since the 2.5 Damage of EL is 184% larger than .8788 and the 12 point cost of EL is only 140% larger than 5 point cost of APT, Expanded Launchers are actually undercosted.

Biggs, I think you just got frekkin pwned. Like...circa 2005 pwned.

Watch out, Maths, there's a new sheriff in town and he's Latin.*

*Italy/Roman empire Latin, not South-central America latin.

That math is wrong. It is considerably easier to calculate odds of not rolling a crit and subtract from one.

75% chance of no crit. 3 dice, each of which can be rerolled if needed. So no difference between that and rolling 6 dice once IF WE CONSIDER NOTHING ELSE. 1-.75^6. So 82.2% chance of crit.

For 2 black dice, 1-.75^4=68%

So APT+OE averages closer to 1.5 damage added. 9 points for 1.5 compared to 17 for 2.5

Also, depending how far down the rabbit hole we want to go, we can further say that APT gives you a 8/52 chance of Structural Damage, 2/52 of Shield Failure, and 2/52 of Projector Misaligned. We could then pull from Schmitty's regionals data to get a rough estimate of proportional representation of ships with contains, and also the average value of maximum shield facings (weighed for each ship's proportional representation, of course) to find out the average damage value of PM (I'd wager it's around 3). Then we can multiply the likelihood of incidence of PM with the average max shield facing, add that to (2/52*2+2/52*1+1), then multiply the result by the incidence of contain (to account for the number of times ExL won't get that crit through even if it punches through the shields). Then we also need to adjust for ExL's chance of not even punching through the shields, which would have to account for defense tokens and shields AND average damage. And all this is assuming we're attacking an untouched ship.

You forgot Dodonna!

No, it was just time to go pee. Ran out of time.

But yes, Dodonna is another major factor.

Good stuff above.

I think I'll go with APT and upgrade my Torpedoes to Scouts with the extra points.

Good stuff above.

I think I'll go with APT and upgrade my Torpedoes to Scouts with the extra points.

Well done. You show much wisdom.

Also, I mentioned Dodonna in my first post.