ok if you want to desl with the inferior weapons issued to SoBs here's my two thrones on it.

Alternatively, just go with Games Workshop instead of BI/FFG (lol @ "civilian plasma guns") and give them weapons with similar profiles. That would also preclude having to find a justification for even Inquisitors apparently also getting crap ammo.

Yeah, the different stats for Astartes vs. 'civilian' bolters exists only in WH40KRP and no where in the fluff, so no extra justification should be needed- just give everyone the same kind of bolters, full stop.

But I still recommend going with an Inquisitor instead of a SoB.

And please use plasma stats from black crusade or DW errata.

Try to imagine people who could use .50 calibre adsault rifles today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAW3dlTMv6g

Let's see.... Stationary shooter, stationary targets, such close rsnge a thrown knife could hit, not being shot at....

Now let's see that in actual combat conditions.

Try to imagine people who could use .50 calibre adsault rifles today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAW3dlTMv6g

A better comparison is someone hip firing an auto cannon. Bolter shell caliber is .75 which would maybe be around 20mm shell that is also used as a light anti aircraft cannon. Try bracing with that...

A bolter shell js a solid fuel rocket propelled round, the firer is not taking the full recoil.

First thing - Space Marines cannot give orders to Imperial Guard/Navy, and do not take orders from them. But wise commander listens when SM asks him to do something. I think the same applies to Inquisition. If it is not their personal Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, they dont have to listen to him.

This power though is seldom executed in its entirety and in the majority of cases an Inquisitor will politely request such assistance from the asset. This is because to exercise this can cause friction between the factions that may disrupt future agreements. It's a bureaucratic nightmare mind you...

If two inquisitors both require the same thing then there is a debate and arbitration where both sides of the inquisition must come to a debate, possibly adjudicated by a more senior Inquisitor Lord unless, and this is the only loophole, either side serves the Ordo Malleus. The Malleus Remit supersedes all orders, chain of command or hierarchy and if the services are required to oppose such daemon threat this request may not be refused on pain of immediate execution. This is because the threat from daemon is of chief concern.

tl;dr Inquisitors are always right.

Marines on the other hand don't necessarily have that. A marine can request and reasonable captains usually agree since it is in their best interest to help the half ton of muscle and armour but officially their chain of command is to their IG commander. That said, primarchs were sons of the emperor, marines are DNA of their Primarch (albeit lesser degree) which makes any marine the Great great (etc.) Grandchild of the emperor.

Ok, since I know at least one of you is going to either throw a vortex grenade at me or call in the inquisition for saying this I' posting it from an undisclosed orbital location.

Basically a lot of the issues I see about non spess muhreen characters in DW is their relative lack of combat power compared to the mighty spess muhreens, Well, guys and gals, i would like to point out that dark heresy and deathwatch are role playing games and not just combat/wargames. So just because a character can't match a might spess muhreen in combat does not make him or her useless or unplayable in a role playing game.

There are, or at least should be, things in a rpg that are not direct combat.

Now the problem with a SoB character is she is basically a combat oriented character and is essentially a watered down spess muhreen, so yes in some ways she comes off as second rate in a deathwatch game. But she can still outfight pretty much most things below a spess muhreen so she's still handy at dealing with heretic scum, mutant filth, etc. An inquisitor is a more flexible character plus can order spess muhreens around i9f need be. As an alternative to SoB or inquisitor how about a female inquisitor agent who isn't a full on inquisitor yet but is a trusted right hand woman to an inquisitor who is very well equipped ( Oh, grow up! ) and skillful in ways spess muhreens can't really be. (Knock off the beavis and butthead laughs already !)

She could be very good at infiltration, sabotage, intel gathering, forbidden lore, etc. She could be a wiz at security and surveillance systems, lock picking, sneaking up on sentries and a load of stuff that comes in very useful and spess muhreens aren't always excellent at. Plus she could be issued gear that spess muhreens don't know how to use.

So really you can have a fun to play, useful and relevant female character who does play a vital role in a mission or campaign even if she can't go toe to toe with a spess muhreen in combat. You just have to remember that a role playing game is not all combat all the time.

Or have her be a pariah . (you can mix DH2 with DW right?) Having a walking counter to psychic problems might be a boon on certain missions.

Watch captain: "Right, brothers, we expect mind tricks and witchcraft from the xenos on the planet below. Since we are currently without a Librarian, Inquisitor Graves has lent us one of his accolytes. Her name is Antia Malfikarem and she is an unbtouchable."

Space wolf: "Russ's balls..."

Watch captain: "Shut up you! Now Despite the.. disquiet her proximity couses she is a valuable asset and a true aegis against the spells of the psyker and the daemon. You are hereby tasked with her safekeeping. You will ward her body and she wil ward your minds. Ooorah!"

Black shield: "Yes! Iron within, Iron with...out..."

Dark Angel: "What was that?"

Black shield: "Nothing Nothing! We welcome our mortal ally to our kill squad!"

Watch captain: "**** straight!"

The same would be true for a suitably strong psyker , but those aren't to be trusted, and if you have another player as a SM librarian you end up with: "We already have a proper psyker, why are we bringing the witch along?"

Or just go full RT over the top and have a flippin' navigator do he is medusa death stare at everything! (I have serous issues with with the lethality of that btw...)

Or just go full RT over the top and have a flippin' navigator do he is medusa death stare at everything! (I have serous issues with with the lethality of that btw...)

The Homo Navigo care not for the opinions of a Sapiens.

*Stares with Warp Eye*

Or just go full RT over the top and have a flippin' navigator do he is medusa death stare at everything! (I have serous issues with with the lethality of that btw...)

The Homo Navigo care not for the opinions of a Sapiens.

*Stares with Warp Eye*

It's suposed to be only lethal if you stare into it, in the RPG it's basically a basilisks stare. Also: I had my eyes shut!

look at my avatar, a navigator's stare doesn't bother you if you've got a third eye too....

hmm, i read the eisenhorn trilogy abd i remeber how useful liz bequin was, even if she nearly made eisenhorn's head explode when she had to fake fething him to maintain her cover as a prostitute with a client. A null could be useful.

Despite the impossibility of a sexual relationship she and him did love each other.

Caiphus Caine has a null sidekick too.

hmm, i read the eisenhorn trilogy abd i remeber how useful liz bequin was, even if she nearly made eisenhorn's head explode when she had to fake fething him to maintain her cover as a prostitute with a client. A null could be useful.

Despite the impossibility of a sexual relationship she and him did love each other.

Caiphus Caine has a null sidekick too.

Jurgen is basically a butler in my book. Well, a butler with poor hygiene and dress.

A bolter shell js a solid fuel rocket propelled round, the firer is not taking the full recoil.

Well, technically, it is a two-stage projectile, fired as a conventional round, with the rocket motor activating after the bolt has cleared the barrel.

Still, cal .75 is roughly the calibre of a shotgun shell, which is why I consider the AA-12 comparison accurate. Built-in recoil compensation (which may well exist in the grimdark future, too) even enables you to fire these guns on full-auto, single-handedly.

GW's books have repeatedly pointed out that .75 is the standard calibre for everyone's boltguns, and when you have Commissars firing bolt pistols with one hand, recoil indeed seems to be manageable.

Meanwhile, we have FFG's weapon profiles, which try to tell us a character capable of firing a cal 1.00 heavy bolter with a weight of 40 kg on full-auto is somehow incapable of using a semi-auto cal 0.75 bolt pistol at a weight of 5.5 kilograms and a fraction of the heavy bolter's size. The reason? Said pistol has the prefix "Astartes", and you've just rolled the wrong class. Even if you're an Ogryn from Only War.

I know what I'd rather go with, even if it were not a balancing issue.

Now the problem with a SoB character is she is basically a combat oriented character and is essentially a watered down spess muhreen, so yes in some ways she comes off as second rate in a deathwatch game. But she can still outfight pretty much most things below a spess muhreen so she's still handy at dealing with heretic scum, mutant filth, etc.

The problem is that in this game, the SoB would be watered down even in areas where it makes no sense, utterly undermining her character's portrayal. GW's own website presented them as "equals to their brother Space Marines", and whereas they absolutely are inferior in some areas, ranged damage potential is not it. Or rather, it shouldn't be.

If a player wanted to play an infiltrator or saboteur, they'd be better off with a Sister Sabine. Forbidden Lore? Sister Pronatus. Or, as mentioned before, just pick the Inquisitor, for an even greater range of options when interaction with other agencies of the Imperium, and fewer oath-specific limitations to your character.

Or have her be a pariah . (you can mix DH2 with DW right?) Having a walking counter to psychic problems might be a boon on certain missions.

Two problems with that, though. One, super-limited utility to the party, virtually to the point of being a glorified 'magic item'. Two, squishyness: how is a null/pariah (as depicted in GW lore, i.e. a specialty unto itself) going to do anything but insta-die when the pulse rifle shots start flying?

tl;dr Inquisitors are always right.

You're right. They have the authority, but they don't have the power to support that. SM can say NO, whacha gonna do? Stare angrily? Then the Inquisitor goes to his Lord Inquisitor, and he goes to Watch-Captain or even Chapter Captains/Masters and the shitstorm begins.

tl;dr Inquisitors are always right.

You're right. They have the authority, but they don't have the power to support that. SM can say NO, whacha gonna do? Stare angrily? Then the Inquisitor goes to his Lord Inquisitor, and he goes to Watch-Captain or even Chapter Captains/Masters and the shitstorm begins.

Oh exactly they can refuse or be difficult and force it to go down official channels. This has been used in the past as a delay but in the end the Inquisition will get what it needs one way or another. See for example the Space Wolves...that didn't end well for either side.

The new canon didn't end up well for GW as well. I'm not really familiar with it. But I think the real problem for the Space Wolves were Dark Angels, not the inquisition itself.

A bolter shell js a solid fuel rocket propelled round, the firer is not taking the full recoil.

Well, technically, it is a two-stage projectile, fired as a conventional round, with the rocket motor activating after the bolt has cleared the barrel.

Still, cal .75 is roughly the calibre of a shotgun shell, which is why I consider the AA-12 comparison accurate. Built-in recoil compensation (which may well exist in the grimdark future, too) even enables you to fire these guns on full-auto, single-handedly.

GW's books have repeatedly pointed out that .75 is the standard calibre for everyone's boltguns, and when you have Commissars firing bolt pistols with one hand, recoil indeed seems to be manageable.

Meanwhile, we have FFG's weapon profiles, which try to tell us a character capable of firing a cal 1.00 heavy bolter with a weight of 40 kg on full-auto is somehow incapable of using a semi-auto cal 0.75 bolt pistol at a weight of 5.5 kilograms and a fraction of the heavy bolter's size. The reason? Said pistol has the prefix "Astartes", and you've just rolled the wrong class. Even if you're an Ogryn from Only War.

I know what I'd rather go with, even if it were not a balancing issue.

Now the problem with a SoB character is she is basically a combat oriented character and is essentially a watered down spess muhreen, so yes in some ways she comes off as second rate in a deathwatch game. But she can still outfight pretty much most things below a spess muhreen so she's still handy at dealing with heretic scum, mutant filth, etc.

The problem is that in this game, the SoB would be watered down even in areas where it makes no sense, utterly undermining her character's portrayal. GW's own website presented them as "equals to their brother Space Marines", and whereas they absolutely are inferior in some areas, ranged damage potential is not it. Or rather, it shouldn't be.

If a player wanted to play an infiltrator or saboteur, they'd be better off with a Sister Sabine. Forbidden Lore? Sister Pronatus. Or, as mentioned before, just pick the Inquisitor, for an even greater range of options when interaction with other agencies of the Imperium, and fewer oath-specific limitations to your character.

Does this blast compensator count?

Warhammer 40,000 3rd Edition Main Rulebook, page 60

hmm, i read the eisenhorn trilogy abd i remeber how useful liz bequin was, even if she nearly made eisenhorn's head explode when she had to fake fething him to maintain her cover as a prostitute with a client. A null could be useful.

Despite the impossibility of a sexual relationship she and him did love each other.

Caiphus Caine has a null sidekick too.

Jurgen is basically a butler in my book. Well, a butler with poor hygiene and dress.

no, he's Baldrick.from Black adder...In space!

A bolter shell js a solid fuel rocket propelled round, the firer is not taking the full recoil.

Well, technically, it is a two-stage projectile, fired as a conventional round, with the rocket motor activating after the bolt has cleared the barrel.

Still, cal .75 is roughly the calibre of a shotgun shell, which is why I consider the AA-12 comparison accurate. Built-in recoil compensation (which may well exist in the grimdark future, too) even enables you to fire these guns on full-auto, single-handedly.

GW's books have repeatedly pointed out that .75 is the standard calibre for everyone's boltguns, and when you have Commissars firing bolt pistols with one hand, recoil indeed seems to be manageable.

Meanwhile, we have FFG's weapon profiles, which try to tell us a character capable of firing a cal 1.00 heavy bolter with a weight of 40 kg on full-auto is somehow incapable of using a semi-auto cal 0.75 bolt pistol at a weight of 5.5 kilograms and a fraction of the heavy bolter's size. The reason? Said pistol has the prefix "Astartes", and you've just rolled the wrong class. Even if you're an Ogryn from Only War.

I know what I'd rather go with, even if it were not a balancing issue.

Now the problem with a SoB character is she is basically a combat oriented character and is essentially a watered down spess muhreen, so yes in some ways she comes off as second rate in a deathwatch game. But she can still outfight pretty much most things below a spess muhreen so she's still handy at dealing with heretic scum, mutant filth, etc.

The problem is that in this game, the SoB would be watered down even in areas where it makes no sense, utterly undermining her character's portrayal. GW's own website presented them as "equals to their brother Space Marines", and whereas they absolutely are inferior in some areas, ranged damage potential is not it. Or rather, it shouldn't be.

If a player wanted to play an infiltrator or saboteur, they'd be better off with a Sister Sabine. Forbidden Lore? Sister Pronatus. Or, as mentioned before, just pick the Inquisitor, for an even greater range of options when interaction with other agencies of the Imperium, and fewer oath-specific limitations to your character.

Does this blast compensator count?

Warhammer 40,000 3rd Edition Main Rulebook, page 60

Oart of a gun's recoil compensation is the sheer mass of the gun, which creates inertia which resists the force of the recoil. Those guns look pretty massive unless made of "plasteel" or some other super material. I imagine the arms on power armor can compensate for a lof of the weight and recoil too.

~snip~

Oart of a gun's recoil compensation is the sheer mass of the gun, which creates inertia which resists the force of the recoil. Those guns look pretty massive unless made of "plasteel" or some other super material. I imagine the arms on power armor can compensate for a lof of the weight and recoil too.

That makes sense. I have minimal RL interest/experience in/with guns.

I'm sure the blast compensator would play some role in recoil compensation. The weight of the gun absolutely plays an important role in it (which is why adding more weight is one of the methods to reduce recoil), but the gun would still jerk up when you pull the trigger. The recoil compensator, cleverly, re-directs a part of the gases expelled by the projectile's first stage discharge upwards, thus countering the upwards motion somewhat.

You have energy pushing the gun up, and opposing energy pushing it down, both cancelling each other out (probably not entirely, but at least somewhat). This may also slightly reduce the gun pushing towards the firer (as the gas no longer is "trapped" at the back end of the barrel/chamber but can escape upwards).

It'd lower the speed and kinetic power of the projectile, but this in turn gets compensated by the rocket motor, which will accelerate the round further once it has cleared the barrel.

The image you posted also nicely explains why Space Marine guns are so much larger whilst still "only" shooting the same rounds, by the way. Just like with their armour, there's just a ton of useful gadgets added on top of the weapon, some of which may not exist in smaller, human-sized models.

This would echo the comparison between Marine and Sororitas armour as specifically pointed out in codex fluff: equal armour protection, but one of them misses out on a bunch of auxiliary systems.

speaking of bolters, if i were designing one with advanced tech, and a marine carries a goddam nuclear reactor on his back for power, I'd make a bolter that used a EM railgun effect to acfelerate the round as the rocket engine ignited. So that would minimize recoil, muzzle flash and likely increase accuracy.

People build powerful railguns using EM force to accelerate projectiles to unholy velocities in tgejr garages today, but apparently 38,000 yesrs from.now only the tau and the eldar know this technology....

btw, what are the numbers on SoBs and spess muhreens? I mesn we know officially the battle bro's are limkited to like one million members, but is there any ideas on how many SoBs there are?

btw, what are the numbers on SoBs and spess muhreens? I mesn we know officially the battle bro's are limkited to like one million members, but is there any ideas on how many SoBs there are?

The Space Marines are not limited to 1,000,000 as far as I know. That may just be a rough estimate of how many of them there are. They ARE officially limited to 1000 per chapter, by the Codex Astartes, but chapters lik the Wolves and Dark Angels (I think) are non-Codex compliant, and don't bother with keeping to the thousand marine limit. Again, there's no official number of SM Chapters. A good thing, in my opinion, since a number could hamper DIY chapters.

The SIsters, well there isn't even a standard size for the Orders Militant, however, there are exactly 6 Orders Majoris, and we know they all number in the thousands. I think it would be safe to assume that none of the undisclosed number of Orders Minoris have more than any of the Orders Majoris. That of course only touches on the Orders Militant. All in all, there may be more Space Marines than Sisters Militant, but that would just be hasty conjecture mixed with my own personal preferences; however, the Sisters of the Orders Majoris seem to routinely work in larger groups than Space Marines, while the Orders Minoris (and perhaps some members of the Orders Majoris) are spread as thin as a single squad or even a single Sister to a planet, where as Space Marines tend to be more consistant in the sizes of their deployments, as far as I know.

Outside of Deathwatch, I can hardly see less than as Squad operating independently, and they don't get stationed to one particular planet for an extended period of time like Sisters often do,