I am gearing up to run a fresh Deathwatch campaign, there are 5 Players (not counting myself, the GM).

However, two (2) Players are playing non-Astartes characters. For reference, they will be labeled as Player-A and Player-B.

Player-A ... A female Player, I have given the discretion for playing a female character. Drawing upon the concurrent series of Dark Heresy: Ascension, I have offered either a female Inquisitor (Ordo Xenos, of course) who excels in dual-guns (Gunfighter Saint) or a Sister of Battle (DH: Blood of Martyrs plus DH: Ascension).

Player-B ... A male player, but he actively dislikes playing an Astartes on personal principle. He instead wishes to play a Vindicare Assassin from DH: Ascension. This is because the Vindicare Assassin has the rule of being able to Dodge anything, even if normal rules do not permit a Dodge. So this would mean the Vindicare Assassin could easily Dodge attacks ranging from the massed-fire of Hordes, to reality-quakes of Daemon Princes, to being stepped upon by a Titan, or even an orbital lance strike.

So my initial and potential problems are two-fold:

1. For the overall Player Group, how hindering will it be to have at least two (of five) non-Astartes characters?
- a. With the reduction in Cohesion? And lack of Solo/Squad Modes for 2/5 of the Kill Team?

- b. Facing off with Hordes?

- c. The non-Astartes characters facing the "big monster" creatures that generally have a high Fear rating, but not having the "And They Shall Know No Fear" pseudo-protection of being a Space Marine?

2. Player-B believes that DH: Ascension characters are significantly more powerful than Deathwatch Space Marines. The core premise of this belief coming from that DH: Ascension characters gain 13,000 XPs' worth of Player-chosen improvements from Dark Heresy's Rank 1-8 before approaching the DH:Ascension Rank 9 (13,000 XP) to be brought up to Deathwatch's Rank 1 (13,000 XP). While I think he is overlooking the Insanity and Corruption aspects, I do find it difficult to disagree with the Player-chosen improvements point.

Yes, I know that the FFG WH40K series are supposed to be able to Cross-Play with each other in terms of gameplay function (as opposed to the storylines linking them). But I have serious doubts and concerns towards these potential problems.

Any thoughts, Cross-Play rules clarification, &/or field-experiences towards this?

I never had players using both Ascension and Deathwatch simultaneously, but have had Deathwatch NPCs alongside Ascension PCs and a long Black Crusade campaign with both Humans and Astartes. The XP equivalencies they give are surprisingly accurate, and a small difference in XP or effectiveness is not particularly noticeable. The important thing is that the challenges facing the PCs should not always be easily overcome by close-range or melee combat, which is where the Unnatural Characteristics of Astartes characters are most obvious. Just like with any campaign, as long as each player has their own opportunity to shine and the challenges presented are at least within reach of the others; there shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Player A should be no problem. Sororitas can stay within shouting distance of Astartes combat-wise while offering a lot of secondary abilities the Astartes don't have access too (although I wouldn't recommend a Chaplain, since that would probably step on her toes). Inquisitors can be pretty nasty too, but will be much more about their capacity for intrigue and power they command.

Player B might be an issue because of his interest in Dodge, specifically . I had a player take an Assassin all the way through Dark Heresy as an Assassin and then into Ascension as a Vindicare. Between Agility, ranks in Dodge, Unnatural Agility, and other abilities he could make 8-10 95-or-bust for Dodge rolls each round, which is pretty frustrating from a gameplay perspective in designing a combat encounter that could possibly threaten him. Anything that could be Dodged, he would; anything that couldn't, he complained about. Just so you're aware, there are a couple of talents and combat actions that reduce the opponent's ability to Dodge, particularly in melee; and generally attacks that the PC is unaware of they shouldn't get a Dodge against (I forget whether or not the Vindicare ability overrides that).

I can't speak to Cohesion or Solo/Squad modes, but Ascension-level Dark Heresy characters will be extraordinarily lethal in their preferred means of combat, and will probably outstrip the Astartes in that specific field . So if Player B is a Vindicare, another player who is a Space Marine Scout who wants to sneak and snipe as well will feel overshadowed. If he wants to sneak and wrestle enemies down without letting them sound the alarm, he's probably good.

Against Hordes the Vindicare won't do much, but will probably be hunting higher priority targets anyway. A Sororitas will probably do just fine, and I expect an Inquisitor would as well, although both are somewhat in danger of being swamped in melee without the Unnatural Strength and Toughness of Space Marines.

For Fear, a Sister or Inquisitor should have plenty of options to mitigate it, and will probably have multiple Willpower upgrades anyway. A Vindicare is more at risk, but that's probably a good thing, since it'll counter his great single-target offense. Remember that failing a Fear check does not automatically put you out of the fight, many results will just degrade your performance.

I've you've got any other questions, feel free to ask.

I'll split this into two sections, we'll target Player B first.

An assassin of the Officio Assassinorum should actually be fearless in much the same way a marine is. These are expert operatives and are sent into some of the most difficult situations imaginable. They really should be immune to fear because they are all pretty much hypno-conditioned against a great deal but yes, against a hoard of enemies a vindicare would struggle with their default Exitus rifle however they can easily use any other. An assassin, while specialised with their key item of choice, will be trained in using other weapons to achieve their goals. They should though be focused on taking out critical single targets such as enemy leaders and lieutenants, hitting the heavy weapons operator suppressing the squad so the guys can advance while the rest can handle the hoards. They shouldn't benefit from cohesion nor contribute to it.

The reaction rules of the Vindicare though are broken AF. A number equal to their agility bonus per round and are able to dodge/parry many things which shouldn't normally be possible, I believe it even mentions massive explosion as an example. It does even say attacks that are not normally eligible for a dodge test such as invisible psychic attack. Now the only ways to counter that are either a huge amount of attacks to be thrown at them to whittle through or you have to rely on special abilities such as that of the Bloodthirster (Mark of the Xenos, p102):

Supreme Warrior: "When using the All Out Attack Action, Bloodthirsters may make a single melee attack that may not be dodged or parried. A Bloodthirster may perform this attack a number of times per combat equal to his Intelligence Bonus."

Now while the vindicare rules says that it should allow reactions against what cannot normally be evaded, that's a generic rule IMO such as when the attacker is concealed or you are blinded and can't see where it's coming from. When a creature or NPC is actively able to use an ability to negate your attack though, that I would say no to. That I would say you are taking the hit from. The bloodthirster is using what would be considered it's class resource, a limited reserve of items and for a player to try and argue their way out of it is just munchkin-esque.

You will need to draw the line on the capabilities of a dodge and consider what is reasonable to feasibly avoid. A Titan's foot for example, a warhound titan is supposed to be around 10-15m tall so probably has a foot of maybe around 3-4m wide at a guess. A Warlord Titan meanwhile, one of the bigger is only supposed to be around 30-35m high so maybe around 5-10m foot (Emperor class is 150m and for that maybe 20+m). That, feasibly could be avoided I guess if you really were quick enough. Same for massive explosions up to a point. A Lance strike according to Rites of Battle p215, has a blast radius of 500 meters, 1km diameter. I don't care what the rules say if that hits you, you are vaporised, end of conversation. Short of teleportation or the ability to slow/halt time, if you are at ground zero of a lance weapon strike or anywhere within maybe 300 meters of it then no matter what the rules say, you are going to cease to exist if you do not have some really potent defence somewhere.

He will be your solo hunter, he will be your scout and your recon, your perfect assassin able to take down the target with precision but he will usually suffer as the party face and his knowledge may not be up to par. He will likely suffer with his ability to charm, command or lie his way where he needs to be, that speciality would be one of the other assassins such as the Callidus Assassin.

So the thing to consider, allow it but you'll need to really keep an eye on it and be willing to pull the reins on him to stop them taking the piss.

Oh and RE: xp, DW core rulebook p27:

"All Deathwatch characters begin play with 12,000xp. This initial amount is considered to have already been spent...This initial XP is primarily of concern when bringing Deathwatch characters into other games such as Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader or vice versa"

Even though the Dark Heresy character can pick a lot, it's unlikely they will get the myriad of abilities with it that a marine starts with such as their higher base characteristics, their ability to use any weapon without issue as long as it has the word "Astartes" in the name, the ability to control heavy weapons easily, resistances, traits, the organs, even the number of wounds etc. It may seem like the human has the upper hand but they really don't.

And now for Player A, your sister of battle/Inquisitor.

Well first off if they go inquisitor they do have the ability to override any order given. An inquisitor outranks any Imperial asset without question and this includes marines, they are considered the representative of the Emperor's divine will and instructions. Practically though they seldom have to use that Inquisition bootprint since it causes problems and friction but any Inquisitor can order any marine to do anything. The Deathwatch are included and while they are a branch of the Ordo Xenos, inquisitor still can pull rank. They are human though and may have a better set of social skills or more useful psychic powers or connections. This can even extend so far as a radical inquisitor that uses daemonhosts (which can be funny). They will be interesting but they are not always combat aligned and so may struggle against enemies unlike the marines or assassin and may want to utilise a retinue to assist them or give them extra cover but they should be able to get to better or more specialist gear than your marine, probably a few steps higher up the ladder from the off with requisition.

If they go Sister of Battle, this is an interesting one. If you go with some of the Faith Powers from Dark Heresy Inquisitors handbook then you get something intriguing that makes them very much capable of healing or making daemons go away. I actually like the powers available in DH2 though from the supplementary characters which allow them to buff allies damage, create holy wards, extra damage etc. They are more geared against anti-daemon and heretic and while they can be used in a Deathwatch kill team it's not usually their forte. A sister of battle is more about purging the heretic and the mutant rather than the xenos. That's not to say they can't though. They will be very squishy though like the Inquisitor, they will lack the strength and endurance of the marine but will allow for a greater level of human interaction

For a female character, how about a callidus assassin?

Firstly, the DW core book page 34 suggests that a DH character start with 14,000 XP when accompanying Space Marines.

I think you will need a very good reason for an assassin to be attached to a Deathwatch kill team. There really isn't a good fluff reason. Assassins work alone. Even when they fight at the same place as other Imperial forces, I would not think there would be any communication. In the case of a Vindicare, the Imerial forces shouldn't ever know the assassin was there. Of course, the decision on what to allow is up to you as GM.

I personally don't like the BoM Faith Talents, since they don't fit my view of the fluff in the slightest. I don't even like the Sister Superior's Faith Talent in the IH overmuch, since it allows her to blatantly buff those around her, but I can deal with that.

If you are doing a Sister, this might be helpful. It's an excel file with all of the Militant advances for both the IH and BoM. Also, note that you will pay a lot more XP for T and Int Advances, and a little more for Per Advances.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1s2gQNn90fPrrP6fRNYYTRZ7i3Y5i8PWXSe398iNdHpU/edit?usp=sharing

There are a good number of skills the BoM Sister just doesn't have access to. Feel free to look at the file I linked to if you want specifics. The one thing the BoM Sister has that the IH Sister lacks and that I really love is the Miraculous Survival talent for 400 XP at Rank 8, whenever the Sister burns a Fate Point to avoid death, she stands up on her next Action with full wounds, no fatigue, and is cured of all critical effects (even if they happened before the event that would have killed her).

It is verging on the D&D Cleric magic thing that I dislike so much in BoM, but I still love it.

Space Marine: "Sister, why do you still carry two pistols? You have only one arm."

Sister *glares at Space Marine*

Some time later, the Sister takes a blast from a Lascannon full in the chest. She stands up, shakes out her two undamaged arms, and draws her pistols (presumably in order to shoot whoever fired that Lascannon before the Space Marine gets shot while he's staring at the Sister).

~snip~

You could work around this by giving the Inquisitor or Battle Sister a better weapon from the start, but even then you're just delaying the issue, for at some point the Marines are going to requisition better gear, too, and the human is going to "cap out" earlier.

~snip~

Well, since I to am facing this challenge, one thing I came up with (but decided was a little too much at the moment, and a little to short range) was to get the Ambidextrous and Two-Weapon Wielder (Ranged) talents, and carry around 2 plasma blasters both with red-dot sights, exterminator cartridges, and pistol grips (throw it the Cleanse and Purify talent for the bonus on the Flame weapons, if you wish). With all the modifiers, they should each weigh about 8kg, and hit on a +0 when fired (for a total of 4d10+12 E damage!) at the same time at normal ranges. Unfortunately, the base range of 60m is cut in half (30m) with the pistol grips, and I suppose the Astartes will eventually just outpace you again (but it sounds fun!).

~snip~

I think you will need a very good reason for an assassin to be attached to a Deathwatch kill team. There really isn't a good fluff reason. Assassins work alone. Even when they fight at the same place as other Imperial forces, I would not think there would be any communication. In the case of a Vindicare, the Imerial forces shouldn't ever know the assassin was there. Of course, the decision on what to allow is up to you as GM.

Well, Inquisitorial orders would provide a convenient cop-out here. It's true that Assassins usually work alone, but Inquisitors can request temporary assistance from one of the Assassin Temples, at which point the agent's use in the field will be entirely up to the team.

A bigger inconsistency is that, in FFG's take on the setting, these Assassins can apparently be assigned to Inquisitors permanently rather than being one-offs, but that's a different topic.

I suppose. Yeah, in a supporting role like you described, I could totally see a Vindicare working with the group: kinda off on his own covering their advance with his parkour/free running and sniping abilities.

Y'know i'll be labled.a heretic for this but i suggest a little common sense on the dodge issue. I mean look at what a vindicare assassin is meant to be used against. I'm pretty sure greater daemons isn't on the list. So maybe his super dodge doesn't apply to them.

That sounds like a rather drastic solution... They are supposed to be better than Space Marines at this sort of stuff, so it may be weird to disallow dodging just because some daemons are a little bigger and meaner.

Or were you perhaps thinking of a simple nerf? Preferrably something that would just apply universally rather than placing enemies into two categories, as that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.

There's gotta be something to reign it in. Perhaps a lower cap on how high it can be pushed, so that with sufficient penalties (caused by enemies being clever) there will still be some risk?

Then again, I'm not even sure this needs to be touched. Personally, I see no problem if the Assassin is awesome against single targets, as long as he sucks against Hordes. He'd be pretty much the opposite of the Sister/Inquisitor in that case. This means there is potential for synergy and cool group tactics leading to fun gameplay.

I have zero experience actually seeing a Vindicare in action, though, so take this with a grain of salt. Do we have anyone who already had a Vindicare in one of their campaigns here?

Y'know i'll be labled.a heretic for this but i suggest a little common sense on the dodge issue. I mean look at what a vindicare assassin is meant to be used against. I'm pretty sure greater daemons isn't on the list. So maybe his super dodge doesn't apply to them.

Get out. Vindicare are more than capable of dealing with daemons. Not only is their standard Exitus round pretty **** nasty but the specialist ammo (shield breaker, turbo pen, hellfire) are more than capable of doing a shedload of damage to big targets.

A vindicare assassin is more than capable of being assigned against any target, heck any assassin has. A Vindicare was once dispatched to try and take down Horus, a blooming Primarch during the heresy. Meanwhile a Callidus was used to slay Konrad Curze. Others meanwhile have been sent to deal with Ork Warbosses and Gargants (titans) so if you think that they are not capable of dealing with a daemon then you sir are demented.

NB: Wait, since when is the word d.amn now starred out?!

First off, something that I have harped on in several 'Female Space Marine' threads: did the female player specify that she only wants to play a female character, or are you just assuming that's the case? Several of my male gamer friends have played female PCs; why do we automatically assume that female gamers are incapable of playing male PCs?

If she has said that she only wants to play a female, then I would recommend an Inquisitor over a Sister of Battle. An Ascension Inquisitor will absolutely dwarf a DW SM in number and variety of Skills, giving her definite value to the party, and allowing her to dominate non-combat situations as much as SMs dominate combat. But there is the issue of 'squishyness'- even with power armour, she will be in great danger in combat. Maybe give her a force field, too...? And her own personal Medicae Cyberskull...?

A SoB, on the other hand, is intended to be a combat character, and thus will be permanently 'behind the curve' with superhuman SMs. Faith Powers might close that gap a bit, I don't know- I've never used them. I wouldn't risk it.

An Ascension Vindicare seems like a solid choice to me. If you think their God Dodge is too broken, you could limit him to a number of attempts per round equal to his Agility Bonus; still superhuman, but not flat-out immune to damage...

Ok, give the SoB a jump pack and melta gun as starting gear unless the sisters get 'lady meltaguns' too.

There is actually a third option, although the fluff and established lore, this is your game universe and take on and you can say female space marines are possible and find SOME way of allowing it. Functionally the stats are the same as a male marine with all benefits thereof whereas in character it's a female. Not that...a 7ft valkyrie like figure isn't also mildly appealing.

Ok, give the SoB a jump pack and melta gun as starting gear unless the sisters get 'lady meltaguns' too.

Ok, give the SoB a jump pack and melta gun as starting gear unless the sisters get 'lady meltaguns' too.

They can take an Astartes meltagun if you let them, or one of the regular ones from DH. The game doesn't include a specific pattern of meltagun for the sisters. They have a seraphim inferno pistol, but it has 2 less damage and pen than the regular DH one, and a double sized clip.

It is verging on the D&D Cleric magic thing that I dislike so much in BoM, but I still love it.

Space Marine: "Sister, why do you still carry two pistols? You have only one arm."

Sister *glares at Space Marine*

Some time later, the Sister takes a blast from a Lascannon full in the chest. She stands up, shakes out her two undamaged arms, and draws her pistols (presumably in order to shoot whoever fired that Lascannon before the Space Marine gets shot while he's staring at the Sister).

Because the Emperor wills it.

Any other explanation is heresy.

It is verging on the D&D Cleric magic thing that I dislike so much in BoM, but I still love it.

Space Marine: "Sister, why do you still carry two pistols? You have only one arm."

Sister *glares at Space Marine*

Some time later, the Sister takes a blast from a Lascannon full in the chest. She stands up, shakes out her two undamaged arms, and draws her pistols (presumably in order to shoot whoever fired that Lascannon before the Space Marine gets shot while he's staring at the Sister).

Because the Emperor wills it.

Any other explanation is heresy.

Blood of Martyrs is still silly.

ok if you want to desl with the inferior weapons issued to SoBs here's my two thrones on it.

Make the SoBs lady bolter just as good as a marines. Here's how: decide that after the SoBs were formed tge Adeptus Mechanjcs was required to arm and equip them. But the SoBs are ecclisiarchy forces and we all know how much the cogheads respect the ecclisiarchy. (Huge flatulence sound here.)

So, the AM does make bolters and ammo for the nuns with guns, but shafts them on ammo, giving them crappy ammo. Now when a SoB is teamed with deathwatch she draws ammo from their stocks and Voila! Suddenly her lady bolter is working as good as theirs.

As to other things you can do for her to balance out her character you can make her the smallest target on the team and thus the lowest target priority for most xenos filth. Orks would hardly bother shooting at a mere slip of a lass while there were big hulking marines to shoot and swing at. So she draws less fire.

Also, she could have something similar to a rosarius that gives her a field save.

You know, there's got to be some reason she was assigned to deathwatch or to work with them. Play on that. Is she a super badass veteran? Did she survive a xenos assault on her convent and achieve some great victory while being sole survivor, and now has some sort of holy mission to fight xenos filth? Play on a background for her. she's a vet? Start her with signature wargear. Basically balance her out vs the advantages a stock marine starts with.

So, the AM does make bolters and ammo for the nuns with guns, but shafts them on ammo, giving them crappy ammo. Now when a SoB is teamed with deathwatch she draws ammo from their stocks and Voila! Suddenly her lady bolter is working as good as theirs.

Alternatively, just go with Games Workshop instead of BI/FFG (lol @ "civilian plasma guns") and give them weapons with similar profiles. That would also preclude having to find a justification for even Inquisitors apparently also getting crap ammo.

Or perhaps not entirely similar profiles, if you care for detail. A slightly smaller clip and reduced weight sounds like a fairly realistic distinction between differently sized weapons that still share a similarly sized barrel. And if you really want to push for detail, allow Marines to use their bolters as hammers, whereas if you'd do that with a human boltgun it would immediately lose its Reliable trait until maintenance.

i agree inquisitors wouldn't tolerate second rate bolters. Also the archetypal inquisitor who really set the mold for dark heresy, one Gregor Eisenhorn, had a bolt pistol equal to a space marines, as proven by the fact that under a psyker's control he one shotted a space marine with it.

I can kinda see what FFG was doing with the different weapons and yes it makes some sense from a ''common sense'' point of view. The marines are so big and strong -plus the power armor- they can carry bigger and more powerful weapons than a human can. Try to imagine people who could use .50 calibre adsault rifles today.

Yes it makes sense given the background. It does make it hard to justify having mixed teams though and keep it balanced.

Try to imagine people who could use .50 calibre adsault rifles today.

Try to imagine people who could use .50 calibre adsault rifles today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAW3dlTMv6g

Bolter shell caliber is .75 which would maybe be around 20mm shell that is also used as a light anti aircraft cannon. Try bracing with that...

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/rus/ks-23-e.html

Bolter shell caliber is .75 which would maybe be around 20mm shell that is also used as a light anti aircraft cannon. Try bracing with that...

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/rus/ks-23-e.html

The AA12 is shaping up to be some a type of proto boltgun. Shoots rounds with stabiliser fins and comes in a twin-linked configuration called "the hammer" wich is a scarily close to a combi/storm bolter.

First thing - Space Marines cannot give orders to Imperial Guard/Navy, and do not take orders from them. But wise commander listens when SM asks him to do something. I think the same applies to Inquisition. If it is not their personal Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, they dont have to listen to him.

Second - Brother Sergeant Agamor deals 2d10X, Pen 5 dmg with his bolter - the same as heavy bolter in DH and Angelus. Much lower than Deathwatch.

Third - use hordes normally against ascension lvl characters, otherwise they wont do anything shooting from autoguns or lasguns or whatever, but allow them to dodge normally. (or with a penalty equal to horde size, eg horde mag 30, -30 to doge, mag 60, -40 to dodge etc).

At this point they will probably will be going in power armours, and with conversion fields (fields are easier to get by humans than SM).

Allow them to take equipment from Rogue Trader - for example special melta ammo that gives melta scatter. This thing one-shots space marines easy. Or thunder hammers. Organgrinder rounds, flip belts, Nomad with hyper-density penetrators. Lathe-wrought armor. Use RT versions of plasma and melta (slightly buffed dmg, and maximal setting)

Other QUITE good weapons from IH are assault cannon and autocannon.

A character from RT will be fine to. For example Rogue Trader with their own ship, hired by the Deathwatch to carry them around (be sure to buy teleportarium for some sweet deep striking terminators).

Fear should not be a problem - after a few failed test they will be insane enough to shrough off even daemons.

Fear should not be a problem - after a few failed test they will be insane enough to shrough off even daemons.

Psh. Sister Inellia (my ascended character who will be watching a Deathwatch team for signs of Heresy) is immune to fear (long with pinning and intimidation), and has 5 ways of ignoring or reducing corruption or insanity (and plenty of tricks to deal with filthy daemons and disgusting psykers). Oh, but she did end up with 42 Insanity points during Character Creation (she shifted her starting corruption over to insanity), so she whispers to her Chaplet Ecclesiasticus (don't ask her what she's saying, she has Forbidden Lore (Heresy) +20).

Well, I think I've strayed sufficiently off-topic.