What does this mean for Living Card Games?

Star Wars : Destiny exists in a completely separate space from our Living Card Games®. Our LCG model has been extremely successful, and we are looking forward to continuing to support it, both now and in the future.

We absolutely believe that collectible games and non-collectible games like LCGs can exist side-by-side, appealing to different segments of the greater gaming community. We want to offer strong options for fans of collectible games and fans of non-collectible games, while taking nothing away from either one. We look forward to supporting fans of both categories in years to come

And this is where the lie starts. Any person who knows business/product management always thinks to themselves what is the quickest path to revenue? . The collectable aspect of this game pretty much ensures this will be a large cash cow for the company due to the Star Wars brand. This product will absorb most of the $ that would have been normally put into their LCG and other non-collectible products. My prediction: slower releases and poorly tested LCG products as a result of all the attention that will be put onto this product.

In terms of sales, I don't think this product will cannibalize $ from LCG players, but it will cannibalize labor. All would be good if we knew that some of this money would be reinvested into non-collectable products. Unfortunately, this will simply not be the case. As some of you know, parent company Asmodee has put pressure on FFG to generate a return to their investors (which is why many employees within FFG have stated their discontent/disgust with Asmodee; look up Reddit). The profits will be used to satisfy Asmodee who is looking for a quick buck to goose up their P&L.

The end of the LCG will come not because this product won't be successful and generate a huge loss for the company. Instead, LCG will die because this game will be successful and steal the spotlight.

​

Or, it is the realization, that the LCG model is profitable, but is limited to where it can be sold. Hell, even the hobby stores have issues with the shear number of SKUs and shelf space that can be required for LCGs and their Miniatures games.

This product is geared for the big box stores, to be where the base ball cards, Magic, and Pokemon cards are. It also seems to be premature to claim the death of the LCG format, when we know a new one is coming next year. And that they have pretty much confirmed that 6 LCGs is about the maximum they feel they can make.

Dear god, some people have been so burned by the random element, that they fail to see some of the positives the format can have.

And that they have pretty much confirmed that 6 LCGs is about the maximum they feel they can make.

Exactly and now they are taking personnel (Lukas Litzsinger and probaby part of his team) of of developing LCG products to develop collectible games. So the recources available to the LCG department will be much more limited.

Or, it is the realization, that the LCG model is profitable, but is limited to where it can be sold. Hell, even the hobby stores have issues with the shear number of SKUs and shelf space that can be required for LCGs and their Miniatures games.

This product is geared for the big box stores, to be where the base ball cards, Magic, and Pokemon cards are. It also seems to be premature to claim the death of the LCG format, when we know a new one is coming next year. And that they have pretty much confirmed that 6 LCGs is about the maximum they feel they can make.

Dear god, some people have been so burned by the random element, that they fail to see some of the positives the format can have.

Such as?

Every "positive" I see of a CCG is a way to sell more of it. Draft? MTG players solved that a long time ago with Cubes: you make a card pool and you randomly deal that out. The casual playing field is inevitably less fair, the top level competitive is much more expensive and the model itself encourages the printing of useless pad cards.

Armada coming along didn't seem to hurt X-Wing. Imperial Assault didn't slow down development on Descent. Why should a completely different type of game somehow signal the downfall of their LCGs?

Armada coming along didn't seem to hurt X-Wing. Imperial Assault didn't slow down development on Descent. Why should a completely different type of game somehow signal the downfall of their LCGs?

Exactly. And it doesn't. The two are completely different model of sales and game designs. Room for both. The more Star Wars options the better. Now for a ground assault game with AT-ATs!

Armada even shares a designer with X-wing.

the model itself encourages the printing of useless pad cards.

Like 16-17/20 cards in most datapacks? Card games being designed by humans encourages the printing of useless pad cards

Ahhh... gotta love first world problems.

And that they have pretty much confirmed that 6 LCGs is about the maximum they feel they can make.

Exactly and now they are taking personnel (Lukas Litzsinger and probaby part of his team) of of developing LCG products to develop collectible games. So the recources available to the LCG department will be much more limited.

Exactly the point.

But to be fair, Lukas also designed Runebound, which isn't even close to an LCG, so I think that he is kind of the wild card designer.

And that they have pretty much confirmed that 6 LCGs is about the maximum they feel they can make.

Exactly and now they are taking personnel (Lukas Litzsinger and probaby part of his team) of of developing LCG products to develop collectible games. So the recources available to the LCG department will be much more limited.

Exactly the point.

But to be fair, Lukas also designed Runebound, which isn't even close to an LCG, so I think that he is kind of the wild card designer.

Toenail here hits the nail on the head. Lukas worked on many games that are not Netrunner (including,as said, creating Runebound) and yet Netrunner is still kicking asses. All designers and developers from FFG help on tons of different projects (it's enough that you look at the testers credited at the end of rulebooks to notice) and yet no one has ever said "hey, Caleb tested this game, then LotR will suffer from this" or similar. The collectible model is a lot less demanding than an LCG: just consider how an LCG works. You have a new pack every month, and every six you have a deluxe expansion. You need to keep creating, every day, and keep the whole design into mind. Creating a collectible is a lot less of pressure.

Armada coming along didn't seem to hurt X-Wing. Imperial Assault didn't slow down development on Descent. Why should a completely different type of game somehow signal the downfall of their LCGs?

Exactly. And it doesn't. The two are completely different model of sales and game designs. Room for both. The more Star Wars options the better. Now for a ground assault game with AT-ATs!

Doesn't IA have AT-ATs?

And that they have pretty much confirmed that 6 LCGs is about the maximum they feel they can make.

Exactly and now they are taking personnel (Lukas Litzsinger and probaby part of his team) of of developing LCG products to develop collectible games. So the recources available to the LCG department will be much more limited.

Exactly the point.

But to be fair, Lukas also designed Runebound, which isn't even close to an LCG, so I think that he is kind of the wild card designer.

Toenail here hits the nail on the head. Lukas worked on many games that are not Netrunner (including,as said, creating Runebound) and yet Netrunner is still kicking asses. All designers and developers from FFG help on tons of different projects (it's enough that you look at the testers credited at the end of rulebooks to notice) and yet no one has ever said "hey, Caleb tested this game, then LotR will suffer from this" or similar. The collectible model is a lot less demanding than an LCG: just consider how an LCG works. You have a new pack every month, and every six you have a deluxe expansion. You need to keep creating, every day, and keep the whole design into mind. Creating a collectible is a lot less of pressure.

First, for the entire history's of the LCGS it has been very rare that they will hit the release pace you've described. Delays between cycle and deluxe are par for the course.

Second, just because LCGs have more releases does not mean they have more content within those releases. A cycle for an LCG contains between 120-180 cards depending on the game, but those cards are released in 6 different packs. Deluxe boxes range from 50ish-80ish unique cards.

An LCG, even without delays, would only expect to release maybe 300ish cards in year. MTG will usually release 3 sets of 200 unique cards each over the same period, so litterally double the content. The other CCGs have smaller sets, but they still end up releasing about 3 a year and in total more new cards then an LCG will.

Just because FFG spreads out LCG content across more releases with the way they distribute their cycles does not mean they release more new cards then CCGs that do a few big booster sets a year, the opposite actually.

Armada coming along didn't seem to hurt X-Wing. Imperial Assault didn't slow down development on Descent. Why should a completely different type of game somehow signal the downfall of their LCGs?

Exactly. And it doesn't. The two are completely different model of sales and game designs. Room for both. The more Star Wars options the better. Now for a ground assault game with AT-ATs!

Doesn't IA have AT-ATs?

No (not yet anyway) those are AT-STs. AT-ATs are quite a bit bigger:

Armada coming along didn't seem to hurt X-Wing. Imperial Assault didn't slow down development on Descent. Why should a completely different type of game somehow signal the downfall of their LCGs?

Your analysis flawed. X-wing and Imperial assault are not collectible miniature games with rarities last time I checked. If either one had a blind buy w/ common, uncommon, rare, super rare, then maybe you would have an argument here. In the case of Star Wars Destiny, a collectible card/dice game, this game competes with resources for Star Wars LCG. As it stands, there is only 1 designer doing Star Wars LCG (Eric). Star Wars LCG already has multiple errata and a restricted list (not to the extent of LOTR LCG) because they don't playtest as extensively as they should. You can bet that the quality of Star Wars LCG will deteriorate even further once SW Destiny releases since SWLCG is already under tremendous pressure for resources.

I've been a product marketing manager for 10+ years in consumer products. This is the way it works. This is why products get discontinued. Go ask anybody who does this for a living and they will tell you the same thing.

And that they have pretty much confirmed that 6 LCGs is about the maximum they feel they can make.

Exactly and now they are taking personnel (Lukas Litzsinger and probaby part of his team) of of developing LCG products to develop collectible games. So the recources available to the LCG department will be much more limited.

Exactly the point.

But to be fair, Lukas also designed Runebound, which isn't even close to an LCG, so I think that he is kind of the wild card designer.

Toenail here hits the nail on the head. Lukas worked on many games that are not Netrunner (including,as said, creating Runebound) and yet Netrunner is still kicking asses. All designers and developers from FFG help on tons of different projects (it's enough that you look at the testers credited at the end of rulebooks to notice) and yet no one has ever said "hey, Caleb tested this game, then LotR will suffer from this" or similar. The collectible model is a lot less demanding than an LCG: just consider how an LCG works. You have a new pack every month, and every six you have a deluxe expansion. You need to keep creating, every day, and keep the whole design into mind. Creating a collectible is a lot less of pressure.

LCGs do not release more content then CCGs. I'm not sure where you are getting that impression.

First, for the entire history's of the LCGS it has been very rare that they will hit the release pace you've described. Delays between cycle and deluxe are par for the course.

Second, just because LCGs have more releases does not mean they have more content within those releases. A cycle for an LCG contains between 120-180 cards depending on the game, but those cards are released in 6 different packs. Deluxe boxes range from 50ish-80ish unique cards.

An LCG, even without delays, would only expect to release maybe 300ish cards in year. MTG will usually release 3 sets of 200 unique cards each over the same period, so litterally double the content. The other CCGs have smaller sets, but they still end up releasing about 3 a year and in total more new cards then an LCG will.

Just because FFG spreads out LCG content across more releases with the way they distribute their cycles does not mean they release more new cards then CCGs that do a few big booster sets a year, the opposite actually.

And cycles (these 120 cards) are designed and go to the printers as whole (all of them are printed same time). A way they're released is other thing. So 120 + 60 (deluxe) per half year isn't a peak of creativity.

Armada coming along didn't seem to hurt X-Wing. Imperial Assault didn't slow down development on Descent. Why should a completely different type of game somehow signal the downfall of their LCGs?

Your analysis flawed. X-wing and Imperial assault are not collectible miniature games with rarities last time I checked. If either one had a blind buy w/ common, uncommon, rare, super rare, then maybe you would have an argument here. In the case of Star Wars Destiny, a collectible card/dice game, this game competes with resources for Star Wars LCG. As it stands, there is only 1 designer doing Star Wars LCG (Eric). Star Wars LCG already has multiple errata and a restricted list (not to the extent of LOTR LCG) because they don't playtest as extensively as they should. You can bet that the quality of Star Wars LCG will deteriorate even further once SW Destiny releases since SWLCG is already under tremendous pressure for resources.

I've been a product marketing manager for 10+ years in consumer products. This is the way it works. This is why products get discontinued. Go ask anybody who does this for a living and they will tell you the same thing.

FFG is releasing a new game, or at least a remake of an old game, every few months. A lot of them - like for example the RPGs - are much more involved content-wise than a Destiny set will ever be. But somehow it's only Destiny that's bad because it sucks away resources from other product lines?

Armada coming along didn't seem to hurt X-Wing. Imperial Assault didn't slow down development on Descent. Why should a completely different type of game somehow signal the downfall of their LCGs?

Your analysis flawed. X-wing and Imperial assault are not collectible miniature games with rarities last time I checked. If either one had a blind buy w/ common, uncommon, rare, super rare, then maybe you would have an argument here. In the case of Star Wars Destiny, a collectible card/dice game, this game competes with resources for Star Wars LCG. As it stands, there is only 1 designer doing Star Wars LCG (Eric). Star Wars LCG already has multiple errata and a restricted list (not to the extent of LOTR LCG) because they don't playtest as extensively as they should. You can bet that the quality of Star Wars LCG will deteriorate even further once SW Destiny releases since SWLCG is already under tremendous pressure for resources.

I've been a product marketing manager for 10+ years in consumer products. This is the way it works. This is why products get discontinued. Go ask anybody who does this for a living and they will tell you the same thing.

FFG is releasing a new game, or at least a remake of an old game, every few months. A lot of them - like for example the RPGs - are much more involved content-wise than a Destiny set will ever be. But somehow it's only Destiny that's bad because it sucks away resources from other product lines?

Yes. If you read my first post carefully, companies always put the resources to the biggest item that has the highest profit margin (i.e. biggest money generator); at least that's the way it is for non-not-for-profit entities. Don't mean to bore you with technicals, but ARPU (Average revenue per user) - CPU (cost per user) = MPU (margin per unit) is the biggest indicator as to which product a company shut put their spend, in the same way interest rates are the biggest factor to your mortgage payments. This game is designed to hit the mass channels that do tons of volume (Target, Walmart, Toys R Us, replicating the marketing strategy of WizKids but through a different brand that has proven successful). The resources that are needed to distribute into big channels are much more taxing than for smaller channels; it's like comparing a diesel supply truck to a Corolla.

Armada coming along didn't seem to hurt X-Wing. Imperial Assault didn't slow down development on Descent. Why should a completely different type of game somehow signal the downfall of their LCGs?

Your analysis flawed. X-wing and Imperial assault are not collectible miniature games with rarities last time I checked. If either one had a blind buy w/ common, uncommon, rare, super rare, then maybe you would have an argument here. In the case of Star Wars Destiny, a collectible card/dice game, this game competes with resources for Star Wars LCG. As it stands, there is only 1 designer doing Star Wars LCG (Eric). Star Wars LCG already has multiple errata and a restricted list (not to the extent of LOTR LCG) because they don't playtest as extensively as they should. You can bet that the quality of Star Wars LCG will deteriorate even further once SW Destiny releases since SWLCG is already under tremendous pressure for resources.

I've been a product marketing manager for 10+ years in consumer products. This is the way it works. This is why products get discontinued. Go ask anybody who does this for a living and they will tell you the same thing.

How does Imperial Assault and Armada not being collectible impact them being in competition for FFGs resources and overall playerbase. The fact that they use a similar (Imperial Assault) if not the same (Armada) distribution model as X-wing positions them more as competitors, not less. A different distribution method, particularly collectible vs not, does alot to differentiate product lines.

Furthermore, SWLCG does have one lead designer yes. But that isn't outside the norm for FFGs LCGS products. It's why they are able to make so many at once, and why they were able to continue ones like CoC despite the fact that CoCs playerbase was extraordinarily sparse. Their LCG products do not use large dedicated design teams. It's not as is the SWLCG has gotten smaller, it's been the one guy since release.

How does your assertion that the quality of SWLCG will diminish with the release of Destiny jive with the fact that this past year has been the only time on SWLCG history that there haven't been massive delays in product? Destiny releases in November, new game development takes a lot of time, especially since you may not be able to use out of house playtesters for fear of leaks. This means that while Destiny has been in development, the quality of SWLCG has actually improved. There is absolutely no evidence that Destiny has pulled any resources away from the SWLCG.

Armada coming along didn't seem to hurt X-Wing. Imperial Assault didn't slow down development on Descent. Why should a completely different type of game somehow signal the downfall of their LCGs?

Your analysis flawed. X-wing and Imperial assault are not collectible miniature games with rarities last time I checked. If either one had a blind buy w/ common, uncommon, rare, super rare, then maybe you would have an argument here. In the case of Star Wars Destiny, a collectible card/dice game, this game competes with resources for Star Wars LCG. As it stands, there is only 1 designer doing Star Wars LCG (Eric). Star Wars LCG already has multiple errata and a restricted list (not to the extent of LOTR LCG) because they don't playtest as extensively as they should. You can bet that the quality of Star Wars LCG will deteriorate even further once SW Destiny releases since SWLCG is already under tremendous pressure for resources.

I've been a product marketing manager for 10+ years in consumer products. This is the way it works. This is why products get discontinued. Go ask anybody who does this for a living and they will tell you the same thing.

FFG is releasing a new game, or at least a remake of an old game, every few months. A lot of them - like for example the RPGs - are much more involved content-wise than a Destiny set will ever be. But somehow it's only Destiny that's bad because it sucks away resources from other product lines?

Yes. If you read my first post carefully, companies always put the resources to the biggest item that has the highest profit margin (i.e. biggest money generator); at least that's the way it is for non-not-for-profit entities. Don't mean to bore you with technicals, but ARPU (Average revenue per user) - CPU (cost per user) = MPU (margin per unit) is the biggest indicator as to which product a company shut put their spend, in the same way interest rates are the biggest factor to your mortgage payments. This game is designed to hit the mass channels that do tons of volume (Target, Walmart, Toys R Us, replicating the marketing strategy of WizKids but through a different brand that has proven successful). The resources that are needed to distribute into big channels are much more taxing than for smaller channels; it's like comparing a diesel supply truck to a Corolla.

By that reasoning, FFG would have shut down 90% of their product lines several years ago and focused solely on the best money makers, ie. Netrunner, Descent and X-Wing. Last time I checked, that didn't happen, so I take it Christian Peterson & co. know nothing about running a business, but will somehow miraculously learn and do all that product chopping once Destiny comes out?

Also, at one time you are referencing content and design work, the minute that's debunked you switch to distribution channels which are a completely different consideration.

And then also, you are somehow making the automatic assumption that FFG is entering mass market stores with the Destiny product line, which, at this point, is pure speculation, unless you know someone at Walmart who can confirm that they already ordered literal tonnes of Destiny booster boxes.

I'd bet money that Destiny ends up in big box stores, it's got the price point and distribution model for it. But FFG creating one product has never stopped them from supporting others. They just grow, maintain both, and make more money. Novel concept I know.

But given that karatechop thinks that a competitive Destiny deck will run in the $1000-3000 range I don't think his assertions regarding anything have much credibility.

See below for my comments:

Your analysis makes no sense.

How does Imperial Assault and Armada not being collectible impact them being in competition for FFGs resources and overall playerbase. The fact that they use a similar (Imperial Assault) if not the same (Armada) distribution model as X-wing positions them more as competitors, not less. A different distribution method, particularly collectible vs not, does alot to differentiate product lines. First of all, Imperial Assault is a ground-based miniatures game emphasizing more heavily on campaign while Armada and X-wing are space miniature games with PVP; 2 very different products, so I don't think they necessarily cannibalize on each others' player base. I'm not disagreeing with you that they are not differentiated on distribution...but that's not my point. I'm saying that they will compete for resources; unless they reinvest their profits back into development; but that probably won't happen because they are now owed by Asmodee, and Asmodee has put pressure on FFG for returns. Google Reddit).

Furthermore, SWLCG does have one lead designer yes. But that isn't outside the norm for FFGs LCGS products. It's why they are able to make so many at once, and why they were able to continue ones like CoC despite the fact that CoCs playerbase was extraordinarily sparse. Their LCG products do not use large dedicated design teams. It's not as is the SWLCG has gotten smaller, it's been the one guy since release. Last time I checked, CoC was discontinued. Please see their announcement: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/9/22/let-it-eternal-lie/ . But this actually supports my point that Companies will only put their resources into products that generate the highest returns, hence why CoC was discontinued. But give credit to FFG for trying to support this game for as long as it did; but eventually they succumbed to the fact that you cannot continue to put resources into a product that does not provide healthy returns; it simply is not economically viable in the long-run. Go ask any for-profit business owner.

How does your assertion that the quality of SWLCG will diminish with the release of Destiny jive with the fact that this past year has been the only time on SWLCG history that there haven't been massive delays in product? Destiny releases in November, new game development takes a lot of time, especially since you may not be able to use out of house playtesters for fear of leaks. This means that while Destiny has been in development, the quality of SWLCG has actually improved. There is absolutely no evidence that Destiny has pulled any resources away from the SWLCG. All the prior delays were caused by external distribution outside of their control (the port strikes and container shipments being delayed-not because of FFG; see their prior announcements explain this), so nothing has really "improved." There is actually quite a lot of evidence that SWLCG's that the opposite has happened. Look at the Dash Rendar/Freeholder Debacle, the much increased restricted list, and now they actually have errata to cards (e.g. Rule by Fear) that didn't exist before. If anything, things have gotten much worse in terms of quality for SWLCG.

We can agree to disagree. But my point is this: without reinvestment, FFG simply cannot serve two masters of The collectible Star Wars card game and the non-collectible Star Wars card game. Show me any gaming company that has done this successfully with their product brand and I will concede my point (think about why AGOT became strictly an LCG and having both product segements...)

OP, people like you are beyond funny. Of course those games can coexist just think for a second what a negative mind you have to complain about a CARD GAME that some guys chose to make. Just stick to LCG, problem solved. Don't worry, people will still play and as long as they do, it will be supported. Additional, completely OPTIONAL game won't change a thing. Let others that want to, enjoy Destiny.

We can agree to disagree. But my point is this: without reinvestment, FFG simply cannot serve two masters of The collectible Star Wars card game and the non-collectible Star Wars card game. Show me any gaming company that has done this successfully with their product brand and I will concede my point (think about why AGOT became strictly an LCG and having both product segements...)

Well, that would be pretty hard, since FFG is one of two companies doing actual non-collectible-but-living-card-games that I can think of, and then there's not that many companies doing actual blind-package collectible games nowadays. However, would you accept a non-perfect substitute example of WizKids, who do DC, Marvel, YGOH, D&D and TMNT their blind-packaged Dice Masters game, own IP and LOTR for their non-blind-packaged dice games with shared mechanics, DC, Marvel, YGOH, Star Trek, LOTR, Mage Knight and various other smaller IPs with one-off releases for their blind-packaged Heroclix game, Star Trek and D&D for their non-blind-packaged Attack Wing games, Marvel, DC, Mage Knight, Star Trek and D&D for their boxed boardgames, D&D for a blind-packaged no-game-related miniature line, all the while keeping up with demand, running organized play programs, having big-box-store presence and holding at least two product lines that are #1 best sellers worldwide in their category?