Hi there

I would mind about what you do usually prefer: archers or casters. There are some basic differences

Archers: lower Price, no restriction in woods, +1 range, use darken the skies - a command card that would stay dead in your Hand instead

casters: higher basic attack, +1 ability then archers

Mi opinion:

Daqan:

Daqan have the best archers, doubleshot is the best ability among the actual archers. But the casters are also nice. Shield is a healing over the maximum health Points, they get free lore cards and they have a really strong lore card also. Daqan are the only fraction were I do consider archers as casters as on par.

The archers have nice synergy with lot of stuff: Riverwatch Riders, crystal fields and the lore card "attack" trigger twice. Darken the sky in combination with "attack" should end every game (9 auto-dammage and 9 auto-retreat plus 18 attack dices (sic!) more... very probably the strongest combo in the game)

Uthuk:

Worst archers in the game with a ridiculously weak ability. Casters aren't as strong as Battlemages or Necromancers neither. But if you want to go for range... go for the casters. By the way: I think the blood sisters are the real battlemages, because I like if the enemy attacks them... if they get no combat, the ability doesn't apply!

Weiqar:

Archers have a stronger ability than Uthuk, but the casters have probably the strongest mage-ability in the game. If you play some minions, Necromancers are an auto include

at all:

Main problem of archers are the 2 attack dices. So they get only 33% to do 1 damage and 33% to trigger the ability. It's very few potencial to use your very limited activations for them. Exception are Daqan with double attack...

I have only played with the core set so i cannot comment if archers are better than casters.

I was just doing some math to evaluate the dmg chance of U'thuk archers if it is equally viable with Daqan double attack.

Conclusion: Double shot is far superior; Although U'thuk archers are slightly better attacking supported units.

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Daqan Archers

Single Attack

Attacking an unsupported unit : 33% Chance to do 1 damage / 33% Chance to do 1 retreat. TOTAL : 66% chance to have 1 dmg/retreat outcome.

Attacking a supported unit : 33 % Chance to do 1 Damage.

Conditional -Double Attack:

Attacking an unsupported unit : 66% Chance to do 1 damage / 66% Chance to do 1 retreat. TOTAL : 132% chance to have 1 dmg/retreat outcome.

Attacking a supported unit : 66 % Chance to do 1 Damage.

Attacking an supported unit : 39% Chance to do 1 damage + 33% chance to increase damage chance of follow up attacks by 16%

I have only played with the core set so i cannot comment if archers are better than casters.

I was just doing some math to evaluate the dmg chance of U'thuk archers if it is equally viable with Daqan double attack.

Conclusion: Double shot is far superior; Although U'thuk archers are slightly better attacking supported units.

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Daqan Archers

Single Attack

Attacking an unsupported unit : 33% Chance to do 1 damage / 33% Chance to do 1 retreat. TOTAL : 66% chance to have 1 dmg/retreat outcome.

Attacking a supported unit : 33 % Chance to do 1 Damage.

Conditional -Double Attack:

Attacking an unsupported unit : 66% Chance to do 1 damage / 66% Chance to do 1 retreat. TOTAL : 132% chance to have 1 dmg/retreat outcome.

Attacking a supported unit : 66 % Chance to do 1 Damage.

U'thuk Archers (Considering poison and lore rolls)

Attacking an unsupported unit : 39% Chance to do 1 damage / 33% Chance to do 1 retreat . TOTAL : 72% + 33% chance to increase damage chance of follow up attacks by 16%

Attacking an supported unit : 39% Chance to do 1 damage + 33% chance to increase damage chance of follow up attacks by 16%

Thank you for the notes. Hardfact of the inequality of the archers.

Do you mean the 39% Chance of Uthuk archers when you roll one crown and one lore? That's right, but it isn't insignificant that you have to pay also 1 lore for the 2nd damage!

Daqan archers also have a 66% chance to create 1 lore with doubleshot. It's another Advantage...

Daqan: Both are really strong, honestly it depends on the list.

Uthuk: Viper and Blood Sisters are the second and third worst units in the game respectively, but the sisters are okay enough just to get some range into an uthuk squad.

Waiqar: Once again, depends on the list. Minion lists should use necromancers and skeletons. Dark knight lists use skeletons.

Depends on scenario largely. If there are a lot of forests - they are more worth their money.

Don't forget that archers have larger range - it makes a difference more often than it might seem.

Uthuk archers are underrated. They combo naturally with Rippers.

Skeleton Archers condition is NASTY. Besides, they got a 'Minion' keyword, which is big. Obvious combo with Knights.

I think the common mistake in rating archers is that you compare their effectiveness against Melee. Don't.

The archers are a support unit, not a damage dealer. Their potential is that they can attack on the first turn, they can hold an objective and attack, they can attack while supporting your unit etc.

The flee that they cause may ruin the enemy's set up for an attack, making him to waste a turn.

The other thing to consider is the absence of a counter. The nature of BL is that you are generally supposed to get some benefit from any dice roll. Unless you roll swords - you get some. It is either Lore that you use later on to play cards, or conditions that force your opponent to spend his Lore and not to play his cards.

One-to-one comparison of attack outcome between archers and other units is completely nonsensical and not what this game is actually about.

1) Uthuk archers are underrated. They combo naturally with Rippers.

2) One-to-one comparison of attack outcome between archers and other units is completely nonsensical and not what this game is actually about.

1) Why does poison combo with rippers? i don't see the synergy. A 33% chance to get the normal hit needed isn't overwhelming imo. And the chance to roll a wound is the same as to roll a flag and you may lose the hole attack with your rippers (if same target): fail. Additional the poison-effect is so weak that I think I never removed a token... only if I had way to much lore. Daqan archers on a crystal field and Riverwatch support (what isn't to hard to get) roll 8 dices... they do combo well.

2) It just isn't. You have different jobs that have to be done... so you should deploy your army with different slots: who defends my VP? who should attack an enemy VP? Who should be able to back-up units in a bigger area? Ecetera... Casters and archers are quitly in the same slot and do a similar job. How many ranged units do you deploy usually? Really a full set of archers and another of casters? If not, you have to decide between them. And thats the topic.

@Toenail:

Uthuk: Viper and Blood Sisters are the second and third worst units in the game respectively, but the sisters are okay enough just to get some range into an uthuk squad.

And which one is the worst unit? Now don't tell me Obscenes please, I quite like them (my suggestion would be Grotesques, but I consider the archers as poorer). It's hard how Uthuk dominates the list of the worst units

1. They combo because it increases chances for Brutes to eliminate the target and get the Pursue. And not getting lore to kill 1 figure is quite cheap, actually.
Daqan archers on crystal field need:
a) 2 more muster points

b) 1 turn to setup (they get bonus only if they began their turn there)
c) If you want 8 dice, they can't move to position themselves properly

2. I meant comparing archers to melee, not to mages. I described why archers might be better than mages too.

And being able to pull this combo on turn one is BIG. I would think twice before aggressively deploying a unit in Uthuk's potential Brutes reach, especially if they get the first turn.

1. They combo because it increases chances for Brutes to eliminate the target and get the Pursue. And not getting lore to kill 1 figure is quite cheap, actually.

Daqan archers on crystal field need:

a) 2 more muster points

b) 1 turn to setup (they get bonus only if they began their turn there)

c) If you want 8 dice, they can't move to position themselves properly

2. I meant comparing archers to melee, not to mages. I described why archers might be better than mages too.

1 a) Viper Legion / Rippers

Your Chance to get the good attack with the ripper are just like 30% (you need a hit without a flag). Any flag and you will normally lose your entire attack with the rippers (and you sucked your hole 1st turn to try this). So I think it isn't worth the try, and you should only consider it if you get your ripper-attack also rolling on flag with the archers. Imo that isn't really a combo, it's just gambling (with -EV) and hoping for the big shot.

1 b) Daqan with support

I will quote a wise man: "...you are generally supposed to get some benefit from any dice roll"

Yes you need some effort, but it's generates you huge amounts of dices. With the deploy of one crystal field and one movement and normal attack of your archers you get a huge advantage every turn and you make your archers to become a real threat to your opponent. Often he will attack them before he attacks your VP. If not enjoy your archer with more damage potencial then a Siege Golem! If you think that an archer with 6 to 8 dices (play darken the sky and you are on up to 12 dices of one single archer! Play "attack" and get just insane damage potencial...) isn't worth it... why ecaxtly do you want to gamble with your 2-dice VL?

> I do not often deploy a cristal field, but if I do I want archers on it everytime. It was more to show you the potencial and possibilities you get with Daqan archers. They are just from another planet then the VL.. I personally feel that every single activation of VL is an error if you have something else to move (exepted may be in defensiv Scenario), especially early because you do not bring your melee units in reach (and as I said you get very few potencial).

2. range vs. melee

Nobody did compare archers to melee, did somebody? OT but complete agree, it's another slot. But you can compare the general power level of units, and this brings me to play Uthuk only with casters or without range at all...

Dear fellow players, all this moving units into specific location to acquire this or that advantage, or using this or that power to induce your opponent to react in some specific way, sounds to me has battle plans. And as a famous Prussian general once wrote "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy". Thus, the only way we have to know which units are more useful and which are dispensable is to organize a competitive Battlelore 2nd Edition tournament . And since we are geographically scattered, we have to do it online . The last VASSAL module contains both the Daqan and Uthuk army packs and I'd be more than willing to organize the tournament if there is some interest. Let's put our opinion about the different units to a real world test :-)

Dear fellow players, all this moving units into specific location to acquire this or that advantage, or using this or that power to induce your opponent to react in some specific way, sounds to me has battle plans. And as a famous Prussian general once wrote "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy". Thus, the only way we have to know which units are more useful and which are dispensable is to organize a competitive Battlelore 2nd Edition tournament . And since we are geographically scattered, we have to do it online . The last VASSAL module contains both the Daqan and Uthuk army packs and I'd be more than willing to organize the tournament if there is some interest. Let's put our opinion about the different units to a real world test :-)

Can you explain the VASSAL module? Is there a possibility to Play the game online (not the app...)? Would be nice...

You want to do a real world test of a boardgame online? The board game is real world my friend, not the online Version Think we all are getting our conclusions from our games at home, even interesting when they are different. For a prove you would have to do some very much games and the tactical component. So it wouldn't be a prove to which units are best, but it would be fun for sure

Dear fellow players, all this moving units into specific location to acquire this or that advantage, or using this or that power to induce your opponent to react in some specific way, sounds to me has battle plans. And as a famous Prussian general once wrote "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy". Thus, the only way we have to know which units are more useful and which are dispensable is to organize a competitive Battlelore 2nd Edition tournament . And since we are geographically scattered, we have to do it online . The last VASSAL module contains both the Daqan and Uthuk army packs and I'd be more than willing to organize the tournament if there is some interest. Let's put our opinion about the different units to a real world test :-)

I am interested but how'd we deal with the lore and commando cards?

Also I have the problem that I just have German sets at home. Probably some others will have the same problem or won't have the same sets - what would be a solution to avoid cheating or rule problems without excluding players without non-English sets and without violating a copyright. Also I wouldn't like it if people who aren't owning a core set should be able to play the game since that wouldn't be cool because ffg has done a great job with BL 2nd