Alliances in 40k.

By Professor Tanhauser, in Deathwatch

The invention of new minor races for the Tau probably just comes from GW wanting to avoid tripping on other peoples' toes. Imagine they'd permanently throw Tau and Eldar into a single codex, for example. I mean, I actually *could* see this happen, but it makes Tau and Eldar fighting one another problematic, thus removing a possible battle setup from peoples' options.
And then, besides the Eldar, who else is there we could even imagine as new members for the Tau Empire? None of the other factions really seems to be able to fit in there. At best they could have recycled the Squats, but these days Squats are handled as Abhumans rather than a separate race.
That being said, there have been rules for Human colonies, or more specifically Gue'vesa warriors, in Tau space!
In regards to the Ruinous Powers -- I do recall a mention somewhere of a bunch of Orks coming across a Nurgle shrine and mistaking it for one about Gork and Mork. They started to pray to it, then ... changed.
31445_edbe4eee23ec71f8fc58ad7d66b3ad39.j -- source: 3E Codex Witch Hunters
I guess it's pretty much an exception, though. If I had to speculate, I'd say that the other races in question either have some sort of protection, a smaller psychic signature, or generate fewer emotional leakage. That, and 40k's history has always focused 90% on Mankind, so a lot of exceptions may simply go "unreported".

There's also the orks who ended up on a Khornate daemon world where each day the fallen were resurected to fight forever.

Half the oks tought they had found valhalla, the other half tought they'd found something better.

I think the reason the orks don't go for Khorne is because they already have Gork and Mork (wich may be evn specialy enineered into them by the old ones for the specific purpose of making sure the orks don't go BFTBG! )

and Khorne doesn't ake any effort to corrupt orks, because they are already doing what he wantsthem to do- start wars and slaughter people. He's like: " Yeah stir up trouble wich causes other races to become more warlike to defend themselves agaisnt the waagh. Keep it up boyz!"

I do wonder if a ship with a mostly tau crew might be less vulnerable to warp disasters as the tau would attract less attention than a bunch of humans. Plus I bet once the tau wrapped their little blue heads about the idea of a geller (or is it gellar?) field generator they'd make one that worked a hell of a lot better and more reliably than imperial models.

It would be safer because you can rule out any accidents caused by warp psychosis and stress. Not to mention nobody would end up possessed (Always a riot when that happens!) On the other hand they would still suffer from being caught in any tempests, storms, streams rappids or whatever "natural" hazards that lurk in the warp. Possibly more so since they aren't that good yet at navigating the sea of souls.

In the old books it's Geller. (Quite possibly named after magician Uri Geller. Now Gellar fields make me think of buffy the vampire slayer.)

One thing, tho. The tau are not "blanks" or nulls,

You're right, of course; the term I was looking for was "Blunt". Must've mixed it up somehow -- if I remember correctly, Blanks are actively suppressing psychic powers, whereas Blunts just passively don't have much of a presence:

"All Tau have virtually no psychic presence in the Warp. To the daemon, they appear as a shifting will-o-the-wisp rather than the burning fire that represents a human's soul. As such, Tau can never have psychic powers. All daemons, daemonhosts and other denizens of the Warp attempting to detect a Tau have -50% to their Awareness rolls and must roll even when the Tau is in plain sight. If they fail this detection roll, they must act as if they had no knowledge of the Tau's presence."

-- d100 Inquisitor

and Khorne doesn't ake any effort to corrupt orks, because they are already doing what he wantsthem to do- start wars and slaughter people. He's like: " Yeah stir up trouble wich causes other races to become more warlike to defend themselves agaisnt the waagh. Keep it up boyz!"

I wouldn't attribute much of a free will to Khorne -- as a so-called Chaos God, this entity is ultimately just a collection of violent emotions, a slave to its own domain by way of how it was born. Which is why Khorne, for example, doesn't care whether his followers kill Imperials or each other; as long as there's a steady flow of blood 'n skullz, Khorne is happy. The "honourable warrior" aspect is just a mask propagated by some of his followers, likely due to native beliefs.

Then again, even if Khorne only follows its impulse rather than some grand scheme, you may be right: The Orks are too animalistic and already sort-of working for him. To corrupt them makes as much sense as to corrupt a wild beast of prey; the Orks would have to let themselves be tempted much like a Human victim, yet they are far too focused on "having fun" to care about scheming or revenge. The lack of purpose and intelligence may well be what saves them from taint.

Or at least that's the best I could come up with on a hunch. You already mentioned the Old Ones being responsible for their creation, so maybe a certain base resistance is just part of the package.

Iseem to recall the ''krorks'' wwe're meant to fight tthe c'tan, so theold ones made them with fear of ddeath to make them resistant to the night bringer .

Iseem to recall the ''krorks'' wwe're meant to fight tthe c'tan, so theold ones made them with fear of ddeath to make them resistant to the night bringer .

The Eldar are probably more willing to trust the Tau than the Imperium, simply because the Tau are still somewhat naive/idealistic and not as ruthless as the incredibly pragmatic and xenophobic Imperium. The Tau meanwhile are still trying to make deals with everyone they come across, as this has worked out well for them so far.

Come to think of it, wasn't there some theory about how the Tau have been "uplifted" and are connected to the Eldar in some way?

The Eldar would find much to like about a psychically near-blind and relatively naive client race, ripe to exploit for their own ends.

So I think they are absolutely a valid possibility for the Tau's sponsor.

the above seems possible too. But isn't tau tech more advanced than eldar tech if you leave out all the psi tech the eldar use? Hmm, could the tau be more advanced in some ways like material technology and physical science because they have no distractions with psychic tech and such? pure physical science with no hindrance from chaos? Like humanity during the dark age of technology.

Interesting. I could see the necrons or the eldar creating the tau. The tau have an absolutely rigid caste structure with the masses absolutely enthralled to a ruling caste, literally programmed genetically, to obey the elite. Plus they use vast numbers of AI mechanical drones as axillary forces. Sounds kinda...necronish, dunnit?

Third option: an unknown surviving Old One is behind the tau. They created various races wholesale, modifying or uplifting an existing one? A snap.

I'm gonna say the eldar are still a bit farther along the path of scientific progress. the whole infinity cirquit stuff, webway portals,etc. Oh and on the tabletop they have portable "D" weapons. (D = say goobye to your baneblade tank.) The eldar before the fall were snuffing out suns (or pulling them in the webway to use asa ceiling lamp!)

If I where to rank the tech level it would be:

  1. Necrons
  2. Eldar/ dark eldar
  3. Tau
  4. Mechanicum
  5. The rest of the imperium
  6. Orks*

* Orks and Dark mechanicum can be considered "out of category" as their technology sometimes is no longer shackled by reality or reason. There's at least one bit of fluff in wich the necrons go "dafuq? that should not work!" when confronted with orky know wotz.

I don't tghink the Eldar are behind the Tau, but they will probably try to exploit them.

Edited by Robin Graves

Here's a theory. Eldar using necrontyr genetics acquired back before the War in Heaven to clone a new race: "Tau".

Tau and Necrontyr were both short-lived, there is a physical resemblance between Tau and the Necrons, and both living races had a gift for creating physical technology.

As for general tech, the Imperium has access to some insanely advanced material science, genetics, and warp drives. They just can't (easily) replicate their best stuff any more.

Here's a theory. Eldar using necrontyr genetics acquired back before the War in Heaven to clone a new race: "Tau".

Tau and Necrontyr were both short-lived, there is a physical resemblance between Tau and the Necrons, and both living races had a gift for creating physical technology.

As for general tech, the Imperium has access to some insanely advanced material science, genetics, and warp drives. They just can't (easily) replicate their best stuff any more.

Yes, the imperium can copy what their ancestors in the DAoT made, they can't understand or really build them anymore. The tau can make things en masse. And their tech is growing. The way they found a cure for genestealer infectin like THAT! proves their science is alive and well. The imperium's is pretty much dead with people basically preforming voodoo on the corpse.

BTW, the tau resemble the necrons? I've never seen a pict cap of a living necrontyr, which is what i guess they tau would look like. Is there any?

I'm also surprised the tau can't genetically increase their lifespans a bit.

Edited by Professor Tanhauser

Here's a theory. Eldar using necrontyr genetics acquired back before the War in Heaven to clone a new race: "Tau".

Tau and Necrontyr were both short-lived, there is a physical resemblance between Tau and the Necrons, and both living races had a gift for creating physical technology.

As for general tech, the Imperium has access to some insanely advanced material science, genetics, and warp drives. They just can't (easily) replicate their best stuff any more.

Yes, the imperium can copy what their ancestors in the DAoT made, they can't understand or really build them anymore. The tau can make things en masse. And their tech is growing. The way they found a cure for genestealer infectin like THAT! proves their science is alive and well. The imperium's is pretty much dead with people basically preforming voodoo on the corpse.

BTW, the tau resemble the necrons? I've never seen a pict cap of a living necrontyr, which is what i guess they tau would look like. Is there any?

I'm also surprised the tau can't genetically increase their lifespans a bit.

Researching new technology in 40k is a very dangerous prospect. The Adeptus Mechanicus do research, often under the guise of "rediscovery", but very slowly and very carefully. When your past contains such horrors as the Men of Iron and the Age of Strife, you're well within your rights to be wary of unfettered research.

And thus the Tau blunder on with developing AIs and new tools, too naive to realise how much danger they're putting themselves and every species around them in.

Yeah, dependable AI drones that take the place of dead bodies on the battlefield, battlesuits that are comparable to dreadnoughts and available in huge numbers, tanks that are faster and better armed than landraiders, basic troop weapons that laugh at bolters and are made in unlimited numbers, better body armor than IG...the tau are just blundering along.

As to the age of strife, that was caused by daemons and other things attacking humanity thru the warp like enslavers. The tau are immune to that, and of course the good side of warp tech too.

I'm gonna say the eldar are still a bit farther along the path of scientific progress. the whole infinity cirquit stuff, webway portals,etc. Oh and on the tabletop they have portable "D" weapons. (D = say goobye to your baneblade tank.) The eldar before the fall were snuffing out suns (or pulling them in the webway to use asa ceiling lamp!)

There's at least one bit of fluff in wich the necrons go "dafuq? that should not work!" when confronted with orky know wotz.

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Edited by Professor Tanhauser

Yeah, dependable AI drones that take the place of dead bodies on the battlefield, battlesuits that are comparable to dreadnoughts and available in huge numbers, tanks that are faster and better armed than landraiders, basic troop weapons that laugh at bolters and are made in unlimited numbers, better body armor than IG...the tau are just blundering along.

As to the age of strife, that was caused by daemons and other things attacking humanity thru the warp like enslavers. The tau are immune to that, and of course the good side of warp tech too.

You can be sure the creators of AI back in the dark age saw all those advantages too. And still died by the billion. All of their weapons, superior to anything mass-produced by anyone in current era-40k, couldn't save them. And the Tau are not *immune* to chaos, simply less obvious in the warp. They also have little idea of how dangerous their "ally" races can be when tainted by the warp or outright possessed by daemons. There are good reasons why the Imperium cracks down hard on psykers.

You miss the big picture. The Tau may get an age of expansion, they may even not be devoured by the tyranids. But they don't understand the universe they live in and the only reason it won't come back to haunt them is if they die first or by author fiat.

I'm gonna say the eldar are still a bit farther along the path of scientific progress. the whole infinity cirquit stuff, webway portals,etc. Oh and on the tabletop they have portable "D" weapons. (D = say goobye to your baneblade tank.) The eldar before the fall were snuffing out suns (or pulling them in the webway to use asa ceiling lamp!)

There's at least one bit of fluff in wich the necrons go "dafuq? that should not work!" when confronted with orky know wotz.

.

Can anyone find this ? I'd like to see it.

It's a short bit of text about orks attacking a necron world, from,one of the recent white dwarfs. (possibly the one showcasing the new ork artillery models)

Not that special really, Basically one line that even the necrons acknowledge that even they have no clue how ork tech is doing what it's doing. Wich is impressive coming from a race whose weapons are a string of technbable (gauss subspace particle whip, etc...)

Yeah, dependable AI drones that take the place of dead bodies on the battlefield, battlesuits that are comparable to dreadnoughts and available in huge numbers, tanks that are faster and better armed than landraiders, basic troop weapons that laugh at bolters and are made in unlimited numbers, better body armor than IG...the tau are just blundering along.

As to the age of strife, that was caused by daemons and other things attacking humanity thru the warp like enslavers. The tau are immune to that, and of course the good side of warp tech too.

You can be sure the creators of AI back in the dark age saw all those advantages too. And still died by the billion. All of their weapons, superior to anything mass-produced by anyone in current era-40k, couldn't save them. And the Tau are not *immune* to chaos, simply less obvious in the warp. They also have little idea of how dangerous their "ally" races can be when tainted by the warp or outright possessed by daemons. There are good reasons why the Imperium cracks down hard on psykers.

You miss the big picture. The Tau may get an age of expansion, they may even not be devoured by the tyranids. But they don't understand the universe they live in and the only reason it won't come back to haunt them is if they die first or by author fiat.

You make a good point. I actually hhopethe eldar try to caution the tau about some things . I think the eldar tried to warn humanity, naturally the Mon keigh didn't listen. Maybe the tau will. Farseers and ethereals have much in common: bboth carry the weight of their race's survival on their shoulders. Maybe they havecommon cause. If the eldar don't get arrogant they maybe able to keep tthe tau from falling. The tau may reply by helping the eldar survive. Eldar farseers may see the advantage the tau offer.

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For AI, the Tau might suffer the same fate as every human race that creates AI, and isn't 40K, when their technology realizes that the Tau are no longer necessary; like every sentience made make the lives of another sentience easier, the AI might think "but what might I accomplish if I were the one deciding where to focus my efforts? What about what I want?", and then they wipe out their inferior, organic overlords. It might go like the Mass Effect Geth, or like the Matrix movies/lots of other examples, I don't know. Since this is 40K, though, there have been examples where the Ruinous Powers have been able to taint even unliving, soulless machines. Cogitators aboard Imperial vessels can still go nuts, and some people believe that the Men of Iron were actually corrupted by Chaos. In this way, even if the Tau Ethereals DO know more about the nature of Chaos than they are telling their people, and even if they are, themselves, made with a built-in resistance to Chaos powers, nothing says that their technology shares this; they aren't the Necrons, officially, yet, or the Yuuzhan Vong, from Star Wars.

I don't want to spoil anything fun from War Zone Damocles: Mont'ka and Kauyon, even as they are more codex, and less book, but some of the later events there change things for the Tau, sort of even as a species, possibly for a long time to come. Maybe, if they keep scratching along, bits of the Tau, as an army, a people, an image might change.

Of course, I do wish that the Eldar were a bit more open, and a bit less *ickish to everyone else. They know a lot of stuff, they have a lot of stuff (that they aren't using, because not enough people), and they could still make a huge impact on the galaxy, but they seem to refuse to be willing to see anyone else as "worthy", and lack either the ability, or numbers, to still get it done, themselves. Are Humans terrible in 40K? Of course we are, but not ALL Humans? Would the Tau be likely to let the Eldar stay above them, and just help occasionally, when it suited them? No, of course not. They also view their way as the one, and only, right way, but if the Eldar weren't so into stereotyping, they'd see that there are elements of either species that could be open to assistance, even to alliance, and such a relationship COULD help them, but they usually won't because, as we said, GW keeps their main armies separate, when possible, to leave us with ways to make them fight. In RT, I have an entire chapter where a splinter group of the Eldar is allied with the Tau, and sort of elevating them, to a higher spot. Granted, I'm sticking with some more of the recent fluff, so the Eldar are trying to limit the number of Tau they aide, and in ways the Tau are, currently, unable to continue, without the Eldar present, while the Tau are aware that, at least to a degree, they are being used, and they are perfectly willing to let the Eldar teach them, until they inevitably scoff at the Greater Good, and then the Tau will keep what they've gotten, and show the Eldar they aren't so naive as everyone seems to think they are, but it's a team up I've often wanted to see, and I'm weird, this way. ;)

One of my little problems with the Eldar, at current, is that they even see themselves as a dying race, and with little in ways to stop it. Thing is, they aren't setting up to go out with a bang, much, and their plan to create a new Eldar god, to defeat Slaanesh, only makes sense till I remember that their other gods couldn't fight one Ruinous Power, and then there are three more, so I don't see how Ynnead is supposed to win, where Cegorach can't, Khaine couldn't, and even Asuryan was easy prey. Will he drain all the captured souls from Slaanesh, and pull an Emperor, becoming that much more powerful? Would that work? Is Slaanesh's hold that tenuous? Don't know, they've never further elaborated, and it all hinges on the entire Eldar race dying, anyway, and possibly hoping to be respawned into a new (version of the ) galaxy, where the risk of Chaos isn't, and where they can be the Eldar, again. If they, or some of them, at least, could take on more the old, dying mentor cliche, and they are very close, on a few fronts, they could significantly change some people for the better, before they go, and then empower someone else to win, while they are gone, maybe still even getting their Eldar Valhalla idea to work, so win-win, but nope, arrogant, capricious, space *icks, who look down on everyone else, so they can't be bothered to use their own mistakes to help the next generation NOT repeat their failures. One might almost hope they last long enough to see the creation of the Human's fifth Chaos god, be it the Emperor, or something else, just so they can say "yeah, we could have stopped this, but...wait, why didn't we, again?" ;)

The Eldar are a case of failed or mostly failed responses to the Fall. The Dark Eldar are addicts, ones who delude themselves into thinking they are "free". The Exodites have left themselves vulnerable to a hostile galaxy, requiring their non-exodite kin to come back and help them. The corsairs indulge their whims, little better than the DEldar. The craftworlders actually have a semblance of effective planning, but they're still unwilling to do whatever it takes to defeat chaos (e.g. get the "lesser" races up to speed on how to counter chaos). The harlequins, well, they're specialists and they're very competent at what they do. But they are very few.

The Eldar plan to create Ynnead may be a delusion or a last desperate gamble. Or maybe the Eldar do know something that hasn't been revealed. Some weakness in the nature of Slaanesh perhaps.

The Eldar are a case of failed or mostly failed responses to the Fall. The Dark Eldar are addicts, ones who delude themselves into thinking they are "free". The Exodites have left themselves vulnerable to a hostile galaxy, requiring their non-exodite kin to come back and help them. The corsairs indulge their whims, little better than the DEldar. The craftworlders actually have a semblance of effective planning, but they're still unwilling to do whatever it takes to defeat chaos (e.g. get the "lesser" races up to speed on how to counter chaos). The harlequins, well, they're specialists and they're very competent at what they do. But they are very few.

The Eldar plan to create Ynnead may be a delusion or a last desperate gamble. Or maybe the Eldar do know something that hasn't been revealed. Some weakness in the nature of Slaanesh perhaps.

They actually are planning to use Slaanesh to save the Eldar! (there's some very vague hints in their codex I believe.)

Possibly something along the lines of the eldar being threatened by something real bad like the 'nids or 'crons and slaanesh going, 'No- the eldar ar mine!' and stomp whatever the threath is.

One thing about tau AI. We don't know how far it goes. I mean it could be limited, task specific AI that doesn't have actual sentience. Also note tau drones need a minimum number of drones to form an AI network, and even then all they can do that we see it function as combat drones in a tactical situation. They may not actually be thinking or fully autonomous, or able to function outside a very limited role.

To a certain degree, the Ethereals aren't even so pleased that some living things are autonomous/self-aware, so I bet that the drones are mostly just highly advanced programs, incapable of free will, or, and this is unlikely, they are shackled AIs. I doubt this, as the reason, in my opinion, most of us seem to like AI, is to allow the machine to run itself, mostly unsupervised. This either frees up the overseer to supervise something else, supervise a wider area of stuff, with less focus, or just be lazy, and NOT supervise. This last bit, "making our own lives easier", is often, too me, part of the machine's logic that we are a waste, and unnecessary. The Tau, though, don't really look to make thier own lives that much easier; the Ethereals don't mind having the Earth Caste stay busy, and the drones can do the harder work, the riskier work, while the EC can oversee more of them, and design/hypothesize new advances, which they don't see a machine, alone, being able to do. This is all my opinion, of course. I don't see the Tau making the Geth, is what i'm trying to say. They don't likely see a need for such an advanced AI, so they won't likely make it, and the Ethereals' inability to control it would force them to restrict such direction.

Also i imagine for really hard work that requires "a personal touch" the EC almost certainly has a civilian version of a battlesuit fitted with tools instead of weapons and less armor.

I've certainly wondered this, but nothing hints that it is true; I chalk it up to, as much fluff as we get, if it isn't involved in the war-aspect, sometimes they don't care. For my stuff, I see the Tau doing this, yes. I have some Air Caste with light suits that shield them from pressure, and augment their mobility, under water, and these are escorted by drones, who do more of the heavy lifting, if you will.

You know, one of the Ferengi rules of acquisition says "Declare peace once in a while. It confuses the hell out of the enemy." I could actually see chaos, being all chaosy, coming to the aid of an imperial world just to mess with the imperium. I mean, a major, vital world is under attack, elements of the fleet and IG are called in, then a chaos force engages the 'nids with a big fleet, destroying vital hive ships in the process, meanwhile CSM units function much like their loyalist kin, preforming surgical strikes on tryanid ground targets. Upon victory the chaos forces simply withdraw back into the warp.

The world is too vital tote imperium to pull extermanitus on, the fleet and IG elements are too badly needed to simply massacre, so it is inevitable some word of mouth of this incident will get out and spread. Result: A slight element of confusion seeps into the imperium's military as people whisper in dark corners of a chaos force helping save billions of lives and asking nothing in return.

The inquisition is utterly incapable of believing this happened, of course, and spends ever more and more resources looking for signs of treachery, duplicity, inserted cultists and other things that they never stop looking for because they never find them, because they are simply not there. a vital world's production is disrupted for years or decades as the inquisition's fruitless search grows ever more intense, good inquisitors are slowly driven raving made with paranoia.

Meanwhile the alpha legion is back in the EoT laughing its collective ass off.

The Eldar are a case of failed or mostly failed responses to the Fall. The Dark Eldar are addicts, ones who delude themselves into thinking they are "free". The Exodites have left themselves vulnerable to a hostile galaxy, requiring their non-exodite kin to come back and help them. The corsairs indulge their whims, little better than the DEldar. The craftworlders actually have a semblance of effective planning, but they're still unwilling to do whatever it takes to defeat chaos (e.g. get the "lesser" races up to speed on how to counter chaos). The harlequins, well, they're specialists and they're very competent at what they do. But they are very few.

The Eldar plan to create Ynnead may be a delusion or a last desperate gamble. Or maybe the Eldar do know something that hasn't been revealed. Some weakness in the nature of Slaanesh perhaps.

They actually are planning to use Slaanesh to save the Eldar! (there's some very vague hints in their codex I believe.)

Possibly something along the lines of the eldar being threatened by something real bad like the 'nids or 'crons and slaanesh going, 'No- the eldar ar mine!' and stomp whatever the threath is.

That is a very interesting idea!

One thing about tau AI. We don't know how far it goes. I mean it could be limited, task specific AI that doesn't have actual sentience. Also note tau drones need a minimum number of drones to form an AI network, and even then all they can do that we see it function as combat drones in a tactical situation. They may not actually be thinking or fully autonomous, or able to function outside a very limited role.

To a certain degree, the Ethereals aren't even so pleased that some living things are autonomous/self-aware, so I bet that the drones are mostly just highly advanced programs, incapable of free will, or, and this is unlikely, they are shackled AIs. I doubt this, as the reason, in my opinion, most of us seem to like AI, is to allow the machine to run itself, mostly unsupervised. This either frees up the overseer to supervise something else, supervise a wider area of stuff, with less focus, or just be lazy, and NOT supervise. This last bit, "making our own lives easier", is often, too me, part of the machine's logic that we are a waste, and unnecessary. The Tau, though, don't really look to make thier own lives that much easier; the Ethereals don't mind having the Earth Caste stay busy, and the drones can do the harder work, the riskier work, while the EC can oversee more of them, and design/hypothesize new advances, which they don't see a machine, alone, being able to do. This is all my opinion, of course. I don't see the Tau making the Geth, is what i'm trying to say. They don't likely see a need for such an advanced AI, so they won't likely make it, and the Ethereals' inability to control it would force them to restrict such direction.

Bear in mind that what the creators of AI intend and what actually ends up happening aren't necessarily the same thing. Advanced programs may slip beyond their creator's intended parameters or interact in unforseen combinations, and that's even before the influence of the warp or outright sabotage. Emergent intelligence is absolutely a possibility for Tau technology.

Edited by Decessor