This issue recently came up with my gaming group, and we cannot come to an agreement.

Player A successfully moved into the Portal of Power.

Player B followed on his own turn and attacked Player A. Dice from both sides were cast.

AFTER seeing that Player A did not roll high enough to defeat Player B, Player C casts a "Weakness" spell on Player B, thereby modifying his Strength and making it low enough to change the outcome of the battle.

Player B argues that any spell or card that affects Strength or Craft must be implemented prior to the roll, and therefore the spell cannot be cast, or more precisely, the spell cannot affect the Strength level after the dice have been cast.

Players A and C contend that the fact that the spell says "cast at anytime" combined with the "golden rule" that states text on cards supersedes general rules make it obvious that the spell was cast legally. Since the sequence doesn't officially tally the scores until Step 4, Players A and C claim the spell was cast after Step 3.

Players A and C further contend that since Player C is not part of the Battle, he isn't obligated to following the Battle Sequence

Can someone please help?

This is easy actually. Lookat page 10 in the rulebook under attacks. Step 2" 2. Cast Spells

Any Spells that the player wishes to cast must be cast

before the attack roll is made. Any effects or abilities that

affect a character’s Strength or Craft must be implemented

before the attack roll is made."

The only spell that could.be cast once the roll is made would be one that specifically states so...

This is easy actually. Lookat page 10 in the rulebook under attacks. Step 2" 2. Cast Spells

Any Spells that the player wishes to cast must be cast

before the attack roll is made. Any effects or abilities that

affect a character’s Strength or Craft must be implemented

before the attack roll is made."

The only spell that could.be cast once the roll is made would be one that specifically states so...

But their argument is that "cast at anytime" supersedes the rules from the book, as per the Golden Rule.

I see it the way you do a MILLION percent, but I'm incapable of convincing them.

They feel that "cast at anytime" is absolute... And it doesn't help that when one of them wrote to FFG, they said the spell was cast properly as per the "cast at anytime" requirements. The problem is that the guy who responded for FFG really seemed disinterested in elaborating and after checking his credentials, I have serious doubts that he's even played the game. Based on his listed age, I played the game before he was even born.

How do I convince them that "cast at anytime" doesn't mean exactly that?

I don't want it to come to this, but it's almost to the point where I'm going to have to say, my house, my game, my rules... Which is a disgusting sentiment but I'm at a complete loss

They are absolutely free to cast it at anytime. If there were any effects that would target the characters strength in the rest of the turn it would be affected but not this attack score.

Talisman is full of this grey area wording. :-)

They are absolutely free to cast it at anytime. If there were any effects that would target the characters strength in the rest of the turn it would be affected but not this attack score.

I really appreciate your replies... I'm glad I joined this forum because this has bugged me since it became an issue 6 weeks ago. We don't talk about it anymore but now that the game has been chosen again...

I used the same exact rationale. The spell could indeed be cast but would not affect my strength as far as that battle because the battle had already taken place. Again, they argued that the battle sequence was not over until all 5 steps were resolved.

They also argued that since the spell by a third party that he wasn't subject to the Battle Sequence Rules.

Should I just get new gaming friends? Lol

They are absolutely free to cast it at anytime. If there were any effects that would target the characters strength in the rest of the turn it would be affected but not this attack score.

I really appreciate your replies... I'm glad I joined this forum because this has bugged me since it became an issue 6 weeks ago. We don't talk about it anymore but now that the game has been chosen again...

I used the same exact rationale. The spell could indeed be cast but would not affect my strength as far as that battle because the battle had already taken place. Again, they argued that the battle sequence was not over until all 5 steps were resolved.

They also argued that since the spell by a third party that he wasn't subject to the Battle Sequence Rules.

Should I just get new gaming friends? Lol

I would just express my disagreement and play anyway. If you can't decide on the rule we always roll a die... I remember GW used to have a hotline to call for rules questions and you could call 5 times and get 5 different answers... :-)

Perhaps I'm just too stubborn. I feel the implications of allowing spells or potions to be used in such a way are just too far reaching.

Based on their reasoning, a Healing Spell listed as "cast as required" would allow you to heal your lives after you roll but before you actually tally the roll and lose your last life. That's just one potential issue I see.

Would you, having the experience you have with Talisman be capable of playing the game in such a way knowing that it wasn't correct? Would you be willing to relent to two players who had NEVER played the game?

Perhaps I'm taking it too seriously...

Perhaps I'm just too stubborn. I feel the implications of allowing spells or potions to be used in such a way are just too far reaching.

Based on their reasoning, a Healing Spell listed as "cast as required" would allow you to heal your lives after you roll but before you actually tally the roll and lose your last life. That's just one potential issue I see.

Would you, having the experience you have with Talisman be capable of playing the game in such a way knowing that it wasn't correct? Would you be willing to relent to two players who had NEVER played the game?

Perhaps I'm taking it too seriously...

I have been gaming for 20-some years... Talisman is not meant to be taken too seriously!

I have been involved in fist fights over Warhammer and 40k and once over one of mage knight.... We took our gaming very seriously since money was usually involved. So, no, I don't take Talisman seriously!

It would put a very sour taste in my mouth to agree to play in such a way... I think I would be too frustrated on principle to even have a good time.

I've also been a gamer for 20 plus years, Talisman being one of the first games I've ever played and officially my favorite game of all time.... I just hate that this can't be resolved.

The Goldern Rule your talking about is.

In any instance where a special ability or effect is at a variance with the basic rules, the special ability or effect always overrides the rules. Page 17 Talisman Rulebook.

Now the Weakness spell is not at variance with the rules at all. As in variance meaning "says the same thing differently" or "is in conflict with". So weakness has no effect unless casted before the attack roll in that battle. Of course though he can cast it of course but it will not effect that battle.

To be in variance to the rules weakness has to say "even after the attack roll is made" now if it said that then yes it would override the rules.

The Goldern Rule your talking about is.

In any instance where a special ability or effect is at a variance with the basic rules, the special ability or effect always overrides the rules. Page 17 Talisman Rulebook.

Now the Weakness spell is not at variance with the rules at all. As in variance meaning "says the same thing differently" or "is in conflict with". So weakness has no effect unless casted before the attack roll in that battle. Of course though he can cast it of course but it will not effect that battle.

To be in variance to the rules weakness has to say "even after the attack roll is made" now if it said that then yes it would override the rules.

They would argue that the ability to cast the spell at any time is at variance with the rule book, specifically the Battle Sequence that requires you to make any adjustments during step 2. Since the spell is "cast at anytime" they feel they can ignore the battle sequence.

Although now that I'm reading specifically "special ability or effect" I see what you're saying. Since the spell is neither a special ability or an effect, then the casting of the spell must fall into the general rules of the battle sequence.

Strangely enough, when this was an issue two months ago, I feel that I made the same argument and moved on when it didn't seem adequate to convince them... Thank you

The Goldern Rule your talking about is.

In any instance where a special ability or effect is at a variance with the basic rules, the special ability or effect always overrides the rules. Page 17 Talisman Rulebook.

Now the Weakness spell is not at variance with the rules at all. As in variance meaning "says the same thing differently" or "is in conflict with". So weakness has no effect unless casted before the attack roll in that battle. Of course though he can cast it of course but it will not effect that battle.

To be in variance to the rules weakness has to say "even after the attack roll is made" now if it said that then yes it would override the rules.

They would argue that the ability to cast the spell at any time is at variance with the rule book, specifically the Battle Sequence that requires you to make any adjustments during step 2. Since the spell is "cast at anytime" they feel they can ignore the battle sequence.

Although now that I'm reading specifically "special ability or effect" I see what you're saying. Since the spell is neither a special ability or an effect, then the casting of the spell must fall into the general rules of the battle sequence.

Strangely enough, when this was an issue two months ago, I feel that I made the same argument and moved on when it didn't seem adequate to convince them... Thank you

Notice that in the combat part of casting spells it does not say you can't cast a spell just its effect can't be implemented, so you can still cast it but it will just effect the character from the end of battle until it wears off.

The Goldern Rule your talking about is.

In any instance where a special ability or effect is at a variance with the basic rules, the special ability or effect always overrides the rules. Page 17 Talisman Rulebook.

Now the Weakness spell is not at variance with the rules at all. As in variance meaning "says the same thing differently" or "is in conflict with". So weakness has no effect unless casted before the attack roll in that battle. Of course though he can cast it of course but it will not effect that battle.

To be in variance to the rules weakness has to say "even after the attack roll is made" now if it said that then yes it would override the rules.

Is there an example of a card that says "even after the dice are rolled"? Because that would help a LOT

Is there an example of a card that says "even after the dice are rolled"? Because that would help a LOT

Just another question though "who owns the game your playing"?

Haha! It's my game. ALL the games our group plays are mine, with one exception (Firefly)

But I didn't want to have to resort to that if it was possible to articulate the error in their thinking.

It was admittedly frustrating to have two first timers tell me I didn't know how to play a game that I'd played over 100 times over the past 25 years... And the last thing I want is to be patronized... "Ok, we'll play it YOUR way..."

Game Night starts in 20 minutes or so. We'll see how it goes...

Pttff, no idea how Talisman is played.

Lot's of good explanations of why he can't use the weakness-spell to change the outcome of the battle here.

I won't even take time quoting/writing more, this is an obvious one.

Alea iacta est

Haha! It's my game. ALL the games our group plays are mine, with one exception (Firefly)

But I didn't want to have to resort to that if it was possible to articulate the error in their thinking.

It was admittedly frustrating to have two first timers tell me I didn't know how to play a game that I'd played over 100 times over the past 25 years... And the last thing I want is to be patronized... "Ok, we'll play it YOUR way..."

Game Night starts in 20 minutes or so. We'll see how it goes...

So how did it go???