More discussion on 0 point Astromechs here - I think you're right Funkleton, but not everyone was as convinced.

I'm hoping the R3's in the ARC-170 are 0 point Astromechs, but what kind of "Once per" ability could they have at that point value?

Well to be fair I was probably overstating the "Final piece of the puzzle" thing - the x-wing pilot roster is so diverse that it would be next to impossible to produce a one size fits all fix

Fair comment - what I was trying to get across was that there are some great mid-ps x-wing pilots that could really see a lot of use with just the smallest nudge in performance - but a BR or boost isn't what would give them that nudge.

Take Garven for example - really nice little ability - but because of that he's always going to focus - what he really wants is a way for him to guarantee a focus on one of his rolls so he maximises the value of his ability and doesn't end up doing the old "spend focus to convert zero focus" thing.

R1A would work nicely there.

same with Biggs but from the other direction - he always focuses too but for his defensive roll - 1 guaranteed evade per round with R1B wouldn't break him

I get what you are saying, but I don't know if we would see them if we had a zero pt astromech, either. Or...if we also had a title that gave Boost or BR. The mid-PS game just isn't in the tournament scene these days.

Fair comment - what I was trying to get across was that there are some great mid-ps x-wing pilots that could really see a lot of use with just the smallest nudge in performance - but a BR or boost isn't what would give them that nudge.

Take Garven for example - really nice little ability - but because of that he's always going to focus - what he really wants is a way for him to guarantee a focus on one of his rolls so he maximises the value of his ability and doesn't end up doing the old "spend focus to convert zero focus" thing.

R1A would work nicely there.

same with Biggs but from the other direction - he always focuses too but for his defensive roll - 1 guaranteed evade per round with R1B wouldn't break him

I get what you are saying, but I don't know if we would see them if we had a zero pt astromech, either. Or...if we also had a title that gave Boost or BR. The mid-PS game just isn't in the tournament scene these days.

If you could get a Rookie equipped with IA and an astro that gave it a slight tweak, and get it for for a point less than a naked B-Wing, I think you might well see them on tournament tables.

the only astromechs that should be 0 are those that don't do anything without additional points invested (ie not counting Integrated)

think of Slave 1, which just gives an upgrade slot, or "Genius" over in scum which does nothing without bombs

...or r2-d6 which, for SOME REASON, costs a **** point

if the Arc's r3 astromech literally does anything by itself (and with "once per round", it probably will), it won't be 0

the only other astromech is the unique bugger in Heroes of the Resistance and I doubt he'll be zero (though "Genius" is, so we'll see)

If you could get a Rookie equipped with IA and an astro that gave it a slight tweak, and get it for for a point less than a naked B-Wing, I think you might well see them on tournament tables.

I understand the idea, but I just don't think you will. As of right now, you won't see many ships under PS 3, because that's U-boat PS. Everything must go before U-boats to beat them. That's the prevalent wisdom.

Even if you had a Rookie X-wing that had a 0 pt astromech that gave the T-65 a Boost or Barrel Roll...and was 1 pt less than a naked B-wing....I still don't think you would see them on the table. I just don't believe that anyone would fly Rookies these days. It's all about above PS 3 or PS 8+.

You would probably see more Wedge and others, though.

I get what you are saying, but I don't know if we would see them if we had a zero pt astromech, either. Or...if we also had a title that gave Boost or BR. The mid-PS game just isn't in the tournament scene these days.

-he said; completely dismissing the fact that PS3 U-Boats swept PS2 pilots out of the meta, and the following surge of PS4 crack swarms (of Tie Fighters and A-Wings), which was a direct response to the PS3 menace.

Each little bump in PS matters more than it has in the past. Before, you were PS2 or PS9. Now, the minor increments matter (more than they ever have, anyway). PS5 (like Biggs or Kanan) can be a boon when a crack swarm is across from you. PS4 is great when you're staring down U-Boats. PS8 gives you the edge over Dash.

The reason PS4 crack swarms are doing well is because PS4 helps them against U-Boats and crackshot gives them some game against aces while keeping them cost efficient. So it would stand to reason that other mid-PS ships, like Red Vet X-Wings, could see play if they were somehow given additional game vs. aces.

The problem is that you have fewer models on the field when you choose these more expensive ships, giving you less options to block an ace, and fewer arcs to try and catch them in. They need a different answer to aces, but if that answer is invented, there's no reason that mid-PS ships can't see play.

That said, I do agree with you that a zero point astromech would not be the solution they're looking for.

The reason PS4 crack swarms are doing well is because PS4 helps them against U-Boats and crackshot gives them some game against aces while keeping them cost efficient. So it would stand to reason that other mid-PS ships, like Red Vet X-Wings, could see play if they were somehow given additional game vs. aces.

well, it's a bit more blanket than that

PS 4 is right on the money v scouts

Crackshot is also solid help v aces, but it also wrecks just about everything. Hell, I've spent all my crackshots shooting at freaking Ghosts because they decided that the range 3 bonus meant "1 evade token per enemy ship"

and, finally, Howlrunner handing out fully modified shots like candy

Crackswarm is an offensively (Stupid green dice) reliable list that presents a consistent threat (the ability to mow down a JM5k before it shoots) that can punch through an ace's defensive tech

In short, if the Red Squad Vet were to compete with crackswarm (not directly against, but rather in their performances against other match-ups) it'd need some way to get action independent re-rolls and crackshot.

I forget which Squadron it was, but apparently there was one X-wing squadron that had a thing for team work and people wanted it represented in the game. Was it Rogue Squadron?

Rogue Squadron Member - 1 point

X-wing Only, Rebellion Only. Title.

"When attacking, if another friendly ship at range 1 has the defender in their firing arc, you may re-roll one attack die."

note, no reason it couldn't be available for the less efficient T-70s, but ffg flubbed Black One so I think T-65s are due some petty vengeance

All ships using astromechs need help. A few pilots do not: biggs,poe, coran. Poe and Coran favor regen so we can ignore them of we keep these astros from being regen or very tanky for all three.

Also TLT y wing spam is dead now, so lets try to keep them from being a super list again. Scum can be ignored as long as there are no secret plans to allow them astro mechs.

Areas of safe buffs with example ( woo, is this one of these threads now)

My least fav idea is just a 0pt blank astro card. It would be a small buff to ships who didnt need a better astro but seems lame.

Discardable 0 point astromechs: 0 points, discard for action equivalent and gain a stress. Ptl for thoes who die young. (Could be limited to change one eye instead of gain focus)

I like the idea of pay 1 point but get 2 points worth of return (or better if design wise it is needed) but i just dont see it fixing all the ships. Could up this benefit if it is to weak.

ie: 1 pt astro: -2 to all torpedo upgrades

Primary weapon buffs (tacked on defense too cause why not)

ie: 1 point astro: once per round when attacking or defending gain a stress to reroll a defense die.

Movement:

1 pt: if you perform an attack that misses, during your next activation phase you may treat all red manuevers as white.

What i want is unique astros for each unique pilot that combos well. I also want generics that make playing 4 generics possible (or 3 ewings) at a store championship level. Knowing we have just one astro on the way i am not expecting much...atleast until the next movies are out.

In short, if the Red Squad Vet were to compete with crackswarm (not directly against, but rather in their performances against other match-ups) it'd need some way to get action independent re-rolls and crackshot.

No; they wouldn't need action independent re-rolls and crack shot (although if they somehow got that package, it would work for them), that's just the solution that's already in the game that you've seen before. What they'd need in some answer. Any answer. It could easily be something that hasn't been introduced into the game yet.

Crack swarms are effective because they're efficient. Against non-arc dodging aces you get many shots with many ships. Against arc dodging aces, you have many arcs made potentially dangerous and many bodies for blocking attempts. They can handle a variety of threats and aren't wasting anything against any match-up. We should probably be brainstorming things for X-Wings which would yield similar universal efficiency and effectiveness.

For all we know, the fixes are in Trick Shot or Snap Shot. ...is there any chance Snap Shot could allow a ship to fire in the activation phase, kind of like Quickdraw can with Electronic Baffle? I mean, now that they've set that precedent, allowing a mid-PS ship to fire before higher PS aces can get their defensive tokens could be one way to get mid-range ships with EPTs back into the game. It'd have to have some other drawbacks in order for it to be balanced, but...could be something there. Iono.

Also TLT y wing spam is dead now, so lets try to keep them from being a super list again.

Can you remind me when TLT Y-Wing spam was a "super list"? They were often seen because they were fantastically efficient filler, but quad TLT Y-Wings rarely won high level events.

In short, if the Red Squad Vet were to compete with crackswarm (not directly against, but rather in their performances against other match-ups) it'd need some way to get action independent re-rolls and crackshot.

No; they wouldn't need action independent re-rolls and crack shot (although if they somehow got that package, it would work for them), that's just the solution that's already in the game that you've seen before. What they'd need in some answer. Any answer. It could easily be something that hasn't been introduced into the game yet.

Crack swarms are effective because they're efficient. Against non-arc dodging aces you get many shots with many ships. Against arc dodging aces, you have many arcs made potentially dangerous and many bodies for blocking attempts. They can handle a variety of threats and aren't wasting anything against any match-up. We should probably be brainstorming things for X-Wings which would yield similar universal efficiency and effectiveness.

not many ways to do that apart from "moar dice mods", sadly

the X-wing (t-65) is simply not a terribly complicated ship. For all people talk about it being a generalist (it is in the lore; not in the game), it's currently just a crappy jouster outside of Biggs and the one guy you give bb-8

you'd have to reinvent the wheel to give them something outside of simple added efficiency that would make them worth playing

Trick shot (though given the spacing between "Crack Shot" and "Snap Shot", the Trick ept is probably "Trickster") and Snap Shot obviously won't help generic T-65s much apart from the one bugger you give r2-d6. Red Squadron vets may very well love them, but that's why Heroes is a very T-70 centric expansion (stupid Black One being T-70 only)

Also TLT y wing spam is dead now, so lets try to keep them from being a super list again.

Can you remind me when TLT Y-Wing spam was a "super list"? They were often seen because they were fantastically efficient filler, but quad TLT Y-Wings rarely won high level events.

Best left forgotten.

Also TLT y wing spam is dead now, so lets try to keep them from being a super list again.

Can you remind me when TLT Y-Wing spam was a "super list"? They were often seen because they were fantastically efficient filler, but quad TLT Y-Wings rarely won high level events.

Best left forgotten.

agreed, though I'd take them over Wave 5 any **** day

TLT y spam was like a far more minor version of today's triple scouts. They were a meta boogeyman that utterly ruined ships that already could hardly face the more efficient aces and especially palpatine. We lost the B-wing to those fears, because while it was a decently efficient jouster it was still less maneuverable and far lower pilot skill AND less efficient than palp aces. So why take them over TLTs that do well v defensive token tech and don't have to worry about their arcs? A love of B-wings, I guess

difference is Torp Scouts ruin those guys AND TLTs, including the more feared but less successful TLT Thug Life and the more actually successful (Because it countered palp aces) r3-a2 TLT btl-a4 Stressy, plus tactician Ks which I was having a ball with

More discussion on 0 point Astromechs here - I think you're right Funkleton, but not everyone was as convinced.

I'm hoping the R3's in the ARC-170 are 0 point Astromechs, but what kind of "Once per" ability could they have at that point value?

Like EPTs I am not a fan of a free upgrade as they simply become auto include. That doesn't mean I am against a 0 point upgrade such as titles which give it an upgrade slot (or equip an upgrade at cost) as that just makes it possible to purchase an upgrade or ones that have a drawback or limited use such as "genius" which could only be used twice and puts your ship within range 1 of a bomb token.

The whole idea of the 100 point list is that everyone starts out the same. If you pay points you are giving up something in return. Be it initiative bid, fewer ships, or a unique pilot. While adaptability provides an interesting mechanic it does create a power disparaity between the pilots down the haves and have-nots of the EPT slot and that gap was already significant.

I get what you are saying, but I don't know if we would see them if we had a zero pt astromech, either. Or...if we also had a title that gave Boost or BR. The mid-PS game just isn't in the tournament scene these days.

I understand the idea, but I just don't think you will. As of right now, you won't see many ships under PS 3, because that's U-boat PS. Everything must go before U-boats to beat them. That's the prevalent wisdom.

Even if you had a Rookie X-wing that had a 0 pt astromech that gave the T-65 a Boost or Barrel Roll...and was 1 pt less than a naked B-wing....I still don't think you would see them on the table. I just don't believe that anyone would fly Rookies these days. It's all about above PS 3 or PS 8+.

You would probably see more Wedge and others, though.

So PS2 is dead because everyone wants to beat PS3 uboats and PS4 CrackSwarms - but mid PS (i.e 4+) is dead in the tourney scene

Not trying to be a short-for-Richard as I've got a lot of time for what you've got to say - but there's kind of a contradiction there - or at least a failure to see an obvious opportunity for a ship with a large roster of mid range ps pilots

The uBoat dominance isn't going to last forever (please!), and it's not unfeasable that the ps3-4 dominance of those 2 builds offers an opportunity for mid PS ships with decent abilities at the right price to find a niche.

Perhaps the current meta is just what all those middling X-Wing pilots have been waiting for to shine

I agree...I think some zero, negative, low-cost, point reducing, "Rebel Alliance Only" astromechs would be the best way to get X-wings back on the table.

So PS2 is dead because everyone wants to beat PS3 uboats and PS4 CrackSwarms - but mid PS (i.e 4+) is dead in the tourney scene

Not trying to be a short-for-Richard as I've got a lot of time for what you've got to say - but there's kind of a contradiction there - or at least a failure to see an obvious opportunity for a ship with a large roster of mid range ps pilots

The uBoat dominance isn't going to last forever (please!), and it's not unfeasable that the ps3-4 dominance of those 2 builds offers an opportunity for mid PS ships with decent abilities at the right price to find a niche.

Perhaps the current meta is just what all those middling X-Wing pilots have been waiting for to shine

OK...I should probably split my comments into two different sections here. The first is what is actually capable and good. The second is what we will actually see.

I do think that lists with mid PS uniques are viable and you can learn to fly the list and be extremely competitive.

I don't think we will see lists with mid PS unique. The hyper competitive player has boiled a lot down to extremes. You go for what's barely acceptable for lowest PS and then the highest you can. The few points that you can shave off anywhere matter to many of these people and I'm not sure if those few points it costs for Garven instead of Red Squadron would matter. Also, I think you would basically have to make the X-wing completely Over Powered before you would start to get people to consider it again. The mindset of "it sucks" is so strong that I think it would take something utterly amazing to get it on the table again. Just look at Integrated Astromech. Most people just went....."meh". The X-wing would HAVE to have some sort of re-positioning ability before people will look at it again. I don't know why it seems any ship that would need to be considered good has to have it, but people feel that way.

I fully admit that I'm biased and utterly cynical, but that's what I think about the tournament scene. I'd love to be wrong.

I'll also admit to being a bit busy at work today and perhaps not fully coherent in my general rambling. I am sorry on that.

I think the real issue here, is that nearly everyone knows that the X-Wing still needs something, but we can't agree on exactly what. But maybe the real issue is simply that the game X-Wing has changed so much over the last 8 waves that a ship like the X-Wing which is a pure jouster simply can never be truly viable in this game.

I think a 0 point astro would be good.

Something similar to chopper crew since he's free too. "When you receive a stress token, you may immediately discard that token. If you do, suffer 1 damage."

If an X-wing takes this and IA, it's essentially a wash if they ever actually use the ability, but it might be worth it in the right situation. Y-wings could open their dial up a bit if needed too.

Biggs wouldn't take it would just kill him faster. Corran and Poe wouldn't touch it. But having X-wing and E-wing generics K-turning and still doing an action wouldn't break them.

Ewings can use electronic baffel already. Doesnt help them get played.

Because it costs a point and takes up a very valuable systems slot.

Because it costs a point and takes up a very valuable systems slot.

My guess is that a low health ship doesnt want to kill its self. The effect is just bad on small ships.

Baffles is bad on pretty much any ship except the lambda far as i know lol

it's bad everywhere, imo

except Quickdraw

Quickdraw knows how to crack the code there

I think the real issue here, is that nearly everyone knows that the X-Wing still needs something, but we can't agree on exactly what. But maybe the real issue is simply that the game X-Wing has changed so much over the last 8 waves that a ship like the X-Wing which is a pure jouster simply can never be truly viable in this game.

I think the problem with mid-PS jousters (like a Red Vet Pilot, for example) is that they get arc dodged into oblivion when they come up against big ships with boost and a higher PS or super nimble aces.

I really think we could use a title, or an astromech, or some other kind of mod that does something to the effect of:

"Skip your perform action step. When you activate during the combat phase, you may perform one free action".

If it cost a point or so I think it'd be fairly balanced. Losing the focus token leaves you more vulnerable on the defense, but when you get to your attack in the combat phase, you can perform the much needed boost or barrel roll or what have you to fix your arc against aces. It even helps preserve action economy against lower PS ships like scouts, since you don't miss out on the action you would have been denied if you bump. It also has the added benefit of doing very little for named, high PS pilots who don't really need the extra help.