Are we missing a level of the lodge? I'm having a hard time figuring out where things are on the map (a key would have been helpful). Perhaps someone has modified or made their own map?

Blackdiamond said:

Yeah, it only shows the Upper floor. But you know, it really doesn't matter. The players aren't going to be mapping the place out, so just make a quick hand drawn map if you feel you need to - but I ran the whole thing and just gave general descriptions of the layout. No one really cares how many feet it is from this room to that, or even what order they are in. Pretty quickly it becomes, "the Library", "the Kitchen", etc. Exactly how the place is laid out is surprisingly irrelevant.

It did bother me for awhile though.

Also just as a side note:

I'm adding another element to the adventure. I found that the intro about Andreas was completely not in the rest of the story so. The painting appears to have a face in it. That's Andreas, and the players can compare it with a painting in the gallery of him to make the connection.

Just an extra bit of flavor to get people asking about the former Lodge Owner.

Great!

I would love to hear any more suggestions, changes or custom stuff you guys came up with. The adventure seems disorganized on the surface, but often looks can be deceiving.

I think it's missing simply because most of the rooms in the main floor appear as location cards...

If I have some time over the weekend, I'll draw up the Inn's floorplan in SketchUp...

" If I have some time over the weekend, I'll draw up the Inn's floorplan in SketchUp..."

That would be great! If you could add some sort of key, that would be great too.

schoon said:

If you get this done by monday, I'll use it for my game!!

schoon said:

Do you have some neat plugins for it? I've started to build a tavern with it while back and would need some boost to continue the work.

Man, I can't believe they didn't include the maps to the tunnels and the Chaos shrine, and the lower floors. The book describes all these locations but doesn't even show you where the are. I've never seen a level/dungeon keyed up without a map.

I seriously think they forgot to include it. Now I have to do it myself, what's the point of a pre-made adventure if I have to make up all the maps. Really it's a big pain in the ass...

They didn't even key the one floor they did show, I don't get it...

Blustar said:

It's entirely deliberate. I wrote to Jay mentioning this a while ago, and Jay asked me what I needed full, detailed, annotated, enumerated (I paraphrase) maps of the lodge for. And I had to admit, he had a point.

These aren't dungeon maps where every square inch needs to be planned out, they're locations to inspire play.

monkeylite said:

Well I need detailed maps so I know where everyone is at any given moment. So nearly 3 decades of RPG's uses keyed maps and now they give us detailed descriptions and half of a map, but don't tell us where they're at?

Why did they give us any map at all then? I think it was poor editing and they forgot to put it in and then they cover their mistake by some lame excuse.

Maps are half the fun of any of these RPG products. The maps inspire gameplay, to me anyways. They're missing a map of the lower floor and the basement which includes secret tunnels and a hidden Chaos shrine. You know I'm going to have to map that out, so I can get my bearings for when the PC's descend to the basement. It might be important to see how fast Piersson can reach certain areas.

I don't need detailed just a rough map like the upper floor would have been handy, it's very disappointing because I have a couple hours of mapping and figuring this crap out now. If I have to make my own maps I might as well just do it myself, it's the most time consuming process...

If the big campaign is not going to have any maps but just descriptions of random rooms I'm definitely not buying it.

Blustar said:

Maps are necessary to my groups fun.....end of story.

My second campaign group just finished this scenario last night. NO ONE HAD A CLUE ONE that there were no detailed maps, or scale for the lodge, or map key, or anything else that was "forgotten". I never mapped it out ahead of time. I never got the order of the rooms, the dimensions of the celler/temple/tunnels, or any of those details 'right in my head' before playing. It NEVER mattered.

Now, I am a huge stickeler for details in nearly every other aspect of my life, gaming or otherwise. I play World in Flames by ADG every week on a series of maps that cover the whole globe during WWII in which counters represent individual ships down to light cruiser size. . . and we've still added 22+ pages of house rules because the RAW aren't detailed enough. I cut my gaming teeth on Star Fleet Battles before the Doomsday edition of the rules "clarified" things (if you know what I'm talking about, yes, LOL).

I had a completely different view on details as a GM up until this game. In first and second edition I tracked (and made my players track) what type of silver coin they had in their hand. I then modified it's value depending on who/what they were, where/when they were, who/what they were trading with, and where the coin came from. I once ran a Twilight 2000 campaign where I calculated the production capacity of an acre of farmland along the Vistula river using post-apocalyptic farming methods; the depth of it's tributaries; and the average population growth for a given community with differing amounts of resources available, among a long list of minutiae that kind of boggles me today.

So yes, I get the importance of details in certain situations. Which do NOT include roleplaying in the Warhammer Universe. The really amazing thing is that despite not making them track the encumberance of 10 sheets of parchment, and the rate of consumption of a vial of ink, and the average lifespan of a quill pen, the players are still managing to find a way to have FUN! In neither campaign has anyone asked even one time exactly how many feet it is from one door to another! It's almost as if in the real world people can go their whole life without knowing the exact distance they cover from their bed to their coffee maker and still manage to function.

I hope this is taken as poking fun at myself, and no one else. I'm just trying to make the point that if I can put down the TI-89 and still manage to have fun in a way that does not destroy suspension of disbelief for the players, then maybe others can too.

As my solders tell me, "The details don't matter, why sweat the small stuff?"

Of course, I then have to smoke them til snot runs down their face, but that's a slightly different situation. . .

Boris Hochloff said:

There are many different levels of details to games. Star Fleet Battles was way over the top in details for me, I found federation commander and more to the point battlestations to be more my thing.

The same is true in RPG from games that want to map things out in 5 foot squares, to games like Amber, which are diceless and narrative. But even in amber points of reference are nice. Doesn't need to be to scale, or perfect, just a point of reference. My players like that. It helps to visualize space.

I don't care about wether the door is 10 feet away from the bed or whatever, I would just like to know where in the whole **** map any room actually is located at. The only one I can infer is the Lords chamber because the secret door is behind the bookshelf by the chimney. But where downstairs is the great hall? Does it take up the whole bottom floor? Is the library underneath the first floor plans or one of the surrounding rooms you see on the map.

I just can't tell where anything is, I know I can just put them anywhere but it's just annoying. I know my players probably won't mind not having a map but I do. I like to know where things are at so I can describe stuff accurately and plan ahead of time for their actions.

I like to visualize what my PC's are seeing and it's going to be tough making it up on the fly and my players love the detail. So they'll be saying, "but didn't you say there was 3 doors down the hall looking south? How big is this Grand Hall can I see the other side?

Ummm, maybe it's just big OK, I have no clue how big the room so just use your imagination.

I'm sure for GM's who are used to making up stuff like that on the fly it's all good but I just can't believe they left out something so basic as a keyed map. Again, maps are the coolest thing about pre-made adventures. They inspire and are conducive to roleplaying not a hindrance.

Well, I'm off to make some maps...

Blustar said:

Maps are very cool, and I can certainly see where a good one (especially a really good one) can help inspire a GM. And how the lack of one (even a poor one) can detract from the GM's fun if they are really into maps. So, if you expect to get good maps (and hope for a great one) in a product you buy, and it's not there, it's natural to be disappointed.

I expect you'll enjoy making your own map once you get into it. Still won't erase your disappointment, but hopefully in the end it will alleviate some of it.

I love maps for the inspiration piece; but I am finding I really don't need highly detailed maps of every location since we're (myself as GM and my group) are returning to a more narrative style of play (as opposed to laying the map out and going through it bit-by-bit like a dungeon crawl). However, I LOVE throwing out a picture or general map of an area to give the players a sense of place.

I gotta side with Blustar on this one. Maps have always been an integral part of RPGing for me. Whether it's the wilderness map, dungeon, inn, castle, or ship map, I just love looking at them. To me, an adventure without a map isn't much of an adventure.

I also noticed the substandard map for the adventure. If all WFRP3 adventures have such poor maps or lack fo maps, it will be another reason for me not to buy the product. I don't want to buy an adventure and then spend hours drawing the maps.

I'm not asking for detailed gridded maps. In fact the map in the adventure would have been fine if it had been keyed.

But, maps for orientational and relational descriptions are imperative, IMO.

I'd gladly forgo a few pieces of artwork in the adventure to get passable maps.

Ekek said:

It's not a substandard map. It's an excellent map. It just isn't keyed to a list of locations.

Ekek said:

I could very clearly be wrong, but I have feeling that because they've moved to an abstract movement system, you're going to see fewer scene-focused maps, and not more. There will be more artwork that describes an area or situation or scene, but fewer maps with keys. So more building reference pictures, and fewer building/room layouts.

Again, I could be wrong, but that's the sense I've gotten from the materials provided so far (the corebooks, the intro scenario, the demo scenario, etc. )

Drat. I love maps.

I still like looking at the original Ravenloft castle map. That was sweet!

Ekek said:

Death on the Reik boxed set had the greatest maps... Castle Wittgenstein... wow.

And the map of Bogenhafen in SoB gave you the tone of the adventure ! Also Marienburg's map in MSotR is awesome...

Enemy Within had a map of the Reikland, a big fold out one, I used it as table cover for our games for 10 years !

Maps are great. Maps are mood setters. As are good handouts. They were the staple of WFRP V1. How I wish FFG would understand that... BI didn't at first, then they started hiring able map makers and things got better. How come ?!? It's all so obvious to me.

Ouch, not a good sign at all.

WFRP always had some of the best maps. The maps in Eye for an Eye are great art, if they were larger maps, each map a page each, say, you wouldn't really need a key to figure out what is where, you can just look and tell from the art.

WFRP3 is an interesting system, and I like the way they've offloaded some information to the gubbinz, but aiding narrative play is one thing, swinging heavily narrative and ditching simulationist aspects that have been the hallmark of the brand for decades is another.

You put detailed and complete maps in...People who don't use or need maps don't care, people who use or need maps are happy.

You leave detailed and complete maps out...People who don't use or need maps don't care, people who use or need maps are screwed.

The attitude of Jay Little from his remarks is the most disappointing. He can't understand why a GM would want a layout of the Lodge, Tunnels and Temple in an investigative adventure? **** Jay, you played WFRP1 for Sigmar's sake.

Lord Kruge said:

To be clear, those weren't Jay's remarks; that was your creative summary of my light hearted paraphrasing of a half remembered conversation from a while ago.