Hi all,

In the last few hours I waded into an argument about the role of women in films. This was on another thread, the one about the Rogue One trailer.

I personally regret that the thread about something cool turned into an argument about something not cool.

However, I don't particularly regret saying the things I said, and I'd like to explain why here, without further derailing that thread.

I am someone who considers the representation of women in the media to be an important topic. Important enough to at least have an opinion on. It is my firm belief that women should be equally represented to men in films and other media. It's my belief that, the more equally women are represented, the closer we get to true equality in the world at large. It's my opinion that, when someone believes women should not be represented equally, they are expressing a point of view which is harmful to women.

For me, expressions similar to "women shouldn't be action heroes," "women should be mothers and homekeepers," and "not another female lead character" are as offensive as expressions such as "black people shouldn't be politicians," "black people should be servants and criminals," and "not another black lead character".

I'm guessing that if those last three expressions were shared here, on this forum, there'd be a great deal more uproar against them - indeed I imagine they'd be deleted almost immediately.

You may not agree that those concepts, sexism and racism, are equivalent. The reason that I believe they are is because in both cases, you're defining a person's potential and their role in society based on the manner of their birth. Indeed, any attempt to rationalise a view that women and men are not equal is the same as attempts to rationalise the view that white people and black people are not equal. "Women are just naturally better at raising children" is about as acceptable as "Black people are just naturally better at running".

With topics such as politics, religion, ethics, I generally try to stay irreverent, or not get involved at all. I genuinely have no interest in attempting to impose my opinions on other people.

But the topics of equality, sexism and racism aren't the same. It is not the case that they are open-ended problems with a spectrum of possible answers - we either treat everybody equally, regardless of their gender, race, or sexuality, or we do not. This is not a political question about whether it is right to publicly provide healthcare or build a wall on the Mexican border or for a Prime Minister to have off-shore tax-exampt funds. Equality has a definite answer which has already been decided - that all citizens of a country share the same rights, regardless of the manner of their birth.

"It's just my opinion" is no more a defense for sexist comments than it is for racist comments, and for the same reasons. When you say something that discriminates against people of a certain race, you're excluding people of that race, whether you intended to or otherwise. If you crack a joke here about how black people aren't as good at something as white people, then a black person reading that is going to feel much less welcome to participate in this community. And the same goes for similar comments about women.

Y'know, if you are of the opinion that women should have different rights to men, if you are of the opinion that black people should have different rights to white people, I actually don't really care, you're allowed to have that opinion. But that doesn't mean it's okay to express that opinion in a public place, because that opinion could be considered hurtful and indeed harmful.

Women already have a horrible time in the tabletop gaming community - and whilst I'm sure none of the people reading this have ever done any of the horrible things described in that blog, that doesn't mean that your words and actions cannot still be harmful to people who every day struggle to be treated equally when doing something they enjoy.

There will be women who are fans of Star Wars and have been all their lives, and who will be incredibly excited to see a film like 'Rogue One' in which a woman is not only one of the main cast members, but is actually the lead character. And those same women might see some of those comments complaining about that fact and decide that this community isn't one where they'e going to feel particularly welcome.

And for that reason, I do feel a need to contest any point made which seeks to exclude women from this hobby - directly or indirectly. If a comment is made that could come across as being disparaging of women, I will state my objection to that comment as strongly as I would to a similar comment made about an ethnicity.

Some of you may disagree with how I have stated those objections - maybe that I have expressed them in too emotional or irrational a manner. And to that, I can only answer that this isn't a rational or logical issue. The argument for civil rights is not one based on rationality (though there may be rational arguments that support it). The argument that people are born equal is a conviction that we hold as strongly as our conviction in democracy. When someone uses a racial slur, the response should not be one of rational objection but of moral outrage - and for me, the same is true of sexist slurs.

So whilst I appreciate that I have derailed a thread that should have been about the new 'Rogue One' trailer, I did it because the sentiments expressed were, I believe, completely unacceptable in a public forum, and I feel morally responsible to state my objections to those sentiments, and to challenge them as directly as I am able, just as much as I would object to racist comments. And I will continue to do so - because I hold that it is the right thing to do.

Thank you for sticking with me this long. In recompense, have some Puppy Tax:

I am of the cloth that everyone gets a choice at who whey want to be. They just have to live with the consequences of that choice, both good and bad.

Excellent post from the OP.

Unfortunately i'm afraid that the well reasoned arguments you provide are unlikely to change anyone's minds.

I would be very happy to be proven wrong.

Excellent post from the OP.

Unfortunately i'm afraid that the well reasoned arguments you provide are unlikely to change anyone's minds.

I would be very happy to be proven wrong.

*Sigh* I know - I wasn't banking on changing people's minds, sadly, I know how much of a lost cause that is. But at least it will serve to explain why I said what I said.

That being said, yeah, it would be awesome to see people change their stance a little.

I appreciate the reasoned and Well written Arguments of the OP.

However I must warn him to Not get "sameness" confused with "equality"

Men and Women are Different, that Is an undeniable fact. Saying "women should be homemakers and men should be Breadwinners" is NOT Sexist, it simply Suggests that Gender plays an Important role in the Family. This is the viewpoint shared by me and many religions reflecting that our gender was Chosen by God for a purpose.

This does not mean We don't support Equal rights Such as suffrage and equal treatment and the right to choice.

Many do not share this veiw but it is important that while Preaching Tolerance you don't become Intolerant of valid world Veiws

So, given that, what do you think of me, then?

So, given that, what do you think of me, then?

You may find this document interesting: https://www.lds.org/topics/family-proclamation?lang=eng

This is a proclamation released by the leaders of my Church several years Ago that states the churches official stance on all of this stuff. A stance that I have Accepted. It is very religious based on Jesus Christ but there is a lot of good ideas that can be applied Secularly as well.

The paragraph that I would refer specifically to you is "By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. ***Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation***. Extended families should lend support when needed."(*** added by me)

However I must warn him to Not get "sameness" confused with "equality"

Men and Women are Different, that Is an undeniable fact. Saying "women should be homemakers and men should be Breadwinners" is NOT Sexist, it simply Suggests that Gender plays an Important role in the Family. This is the viewpoint shared by me and many religions reflecting that our gender was Chosen by God for a purpose.

This does not mean We don't support Equal rights Such as suffrage and equal treatment and the right to choice.

Many do not share this veiw but it is important that while Preaching Tolerance you don't become Intolerant of valid world Veiws

So, Clon, you've stated this is a religious matter for you, and I accept that, and appreciate how important it is to you and the people around you. I don't contest your right to hold your beliefs or to practice your religion, and am glad that you do so.

Here's the thing, though: "women should be homemakers and men should be Breadwinners" - That very much IS Sexist. The statement itself is a sexist one, based on this definition:

" sexism , noun : prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex (gender)."

By saying that women should be homemakers, or that men should be breadwinners, you are prescribing roles, duties and stereotypes based on sex/gender. That is the absolute definition of sexism, as above.

Now, you may believe that it's acceptable, or even morally correct - I won't argue with you there, that's your belief. But, as the definition of sexism stands, your statement about the roles of men and women falls into it, inescapably. You, yourself, may not identify as a sexist, and that too is okay, but the statement that women are homemakers, men breadwinners, is a sexist one, there is no way of defining it otherwise.

With that aside, let's take the word "sexism" out of it for a moment, because it's an emotionally-charged word that is quite accusatory. Instead, let's focus on what you're saying, and why you're saying it. Your belief that women should not commonly be portrayed as "action heroes" stems from your belief on the role women should play in the family, I believe? If that is not true, please correct me.

As a personal belief, you are absolutely entitled to it. I won't try to change your mind. It is a belief you share with many other people, and that is alright, too. The issue with that belief is that it is not shared by every body - myself, for instance, I disagree with it, as do many of my friends, both male and female, rich, poor, etc.

When you express your belief, there are people, including myself, who not only disagree with it, but also believe that it is harmful. I know you don't agree with me on that one, but I can assure you now that you won't change my mind. My own belief is that the view of gender roles that you share is harmful to both men and women, and has caused a lot of suffering, and continues to do so, all around the world. At the very least, I believe that it leads to people placing less value on members of society who do not adhere to the roles that your belief has assigned to them. I believe that the view of women as homemakers and men as breadwinners is a necessary component of the devaluing of women who do not make homes and men who do not win bread.

An important point: I do not necessarily believe that you , Clon, devalue such people. Just that the belief you hold can lead others to do so.

With the point in mind that I hold that view to be harmful, I am obliged to contest it when I see it shared publicly - either out on the street, where I see a man mistreating a woman because she is not adhering to her "womanly duties of motherhood", or at work, where a woman may be belittling a man who chooses to work part-time so he can take care of his children. I believe that such behaviour is damaging both to the individual and to the collective. I believe it makes us all worse off.

In that regard, it's a view of which I have to be "Intolerant". I will not be intolerant of the people who hold that view as a personal conviction, but I cannot tolerate its expression, specifically not in public. It would be the same, for me, as tolerating racism. If someone tells me privately that they believe black people are inferior, I'm happy to allow them to keep that view (not "happy" happy, but, y'know). However, I could not allow them to practice racism - to actively discriminate against black people through their words or actions. That would be wrong of me.

That is why I feel the need to call out and oppose your statements on men and women, Clon. I know I can't convince you that your beliefs on the matter are wrong - you won't convince me that they're right. The fact that I disagree with them, though, is not enough to prompt me to argue the point - it's the fact that I believe them to be harmful.

If your issue with 'Rogue One' was, for instance, the visible killing of human beings, and a belief that this would encourage violence and desensitise people to murder, I would not contend you on that issue. I probably wouldn't entirely agree, but I would not feel that your view would alienate individuals born of a specific gender or race, and so I'd be happy to not even comment on what you had said. Indeed, if you had issues with the portrayal of drug abuse, or alcohol consumption (don't think there is any, mind) I would similarly not contest you on the matter - that is a topic that has no solid answer as far as I'm concerned, and I'd have no desire to enter into an internet argument over something with no objective conclusion. And again, the only people to be alienated or discriminated by such views would be people who had made choices that led them to such alienation or discrimination. If you make a post in support of Democrats, you may alienate Republicans, but people choose to be either of those two sides - people don't choose to be women, or to be black, or asian, or British (in my case).

And this is why I would appeal to you not to share your views on gender in your capacity as an active part of this community. I have no desire to curtail your freedom of expression - that would go against my own values - but regardless of how morally correct you hold your views of men and women to be, not everybody shares those views, and nobody gets to choose which gender they're born into.

If you do want to continue to share such views and beliefs as a member of this community, that's fine, and I won't lose any respect for you because of that - but I absolutely will continue to oppose them as a member of this community, because I feel that I am morally obliged to do so, if for no other reason that to stand up for a group of people whom I believe deserve stronger, fairer representation - and because I want this community to be as inclusive as possible, an objective which I believe to be diminished by statements such as those you made in the 'Rogue One' thread.

Sorry, that was another loooong post, I apologise, I am tired. Have some cool tax:

Stoped reading after the part you called my Religion Sexist...

I'm sorry but that is Unacceptable and proves you are incapable of a reasonable discussion. I will no longer reply to this thread

I really think some guys get a lot of the "Macho" part of their self images from the war games they play. I think these guys have a lot of trouble seeing women doing this that they use to define themselves as a man.

Honestly anyone who enjoys the game, be part of the community, and help grow the game I'm happy to see.

Take it from me, as once one of the most bigoted, virulent, vicious, extremist individuals in my local community: you can change minds for better or for worse and it won't necessarily be apparent. And that chance won't happen overnight either. Shouting in forums or in classrooms won't make much of a dent in something ideologically based. If anything, it causes retrenchment. In my case, it took nearly twenty years to get over some of my previous prejudices. I'll state it now: I was wrong, and I did a lot of harm to people who didn't deserve it (made all the worse by my government's implicit support with certain legislation, yet it was still my actions). I can't undo the untold damage that I did, but I've been trying to make up for some of it since then.

I'm on the other side: complete equality and neutrality regardless of race, gender, orientation, creed, etc. I try not to spout off on it too much, and I try not to egg people on, because there's too many aspects which we aren't privy to in people's lives that form their opinions. Those formative experiences matter, and it's not like I consider myself to be absolutely in the right. It would be tredding the same presumptuous path of self-righteous arrogance that I had to break away from in the first place. Now, I just try to live by example, and when asked, I've usually got an answer that works for me.

Still, I can say that I've been on the other side of a conversation that's played out in almost the exact same way. Deja vu is a very odd feeling, made all the more peculiar when someone's screaming in your face about an issue that you can clearly recall ranting about several years before.

On the matter of gender, and the argument, I agree with Jhox. Full stop (quietly, but even so) .

On the matter of democracy, no comment.

We can't try to change anyone. A closed mind and fear of anything outside their worldview is their problem. What we can and should do is make sure that. What we can do is make sure people who are treated poorly by these people know that we don't feel that way or find it acceptable.

However I must warn him to Not get "sameness" confused with "equality"

Men and Women are Different, that Is an undeniable fact. Saying "women should be homemakers and men should be Breadwinners" is NOT Sexist, it simply Suggests that Gender plays an Important role in the Family. This is the viewpoint shared by me and many religions reflecting that our gender was Chosen by God for a purpose.

This does not mean We don't support Equal rights Such as suffrage and equal treatment and the right to choice.

Many do not share this veiw but it is important that while Preaching Tolerance you don't become Intolerant of valid world Veiws

When you express your belief, there are people, including myself, who not only disagree with it, but also believe that it is harmful. {I cut it down to this one point as it was way to long}

There are also people like me who think that your views are harmful. I do not believe that woman is better than man, or that man is better than woman, they are different in there own ways. Science has proven this, this makes men better at some things, and women better at some things.

Gender, race, religion - these things matter not.

I appreciate the reasoned and Well written Arguments of the OP.

However I must warn him to Not get "sameness" confused with "equality"

Men and Women are Different, that Is an undeniable fact. Saying "women should be homemakers and men should be Breadwinners" is NOT Sexist, it simply Suggests that Gender plays an Important role in the Family. This is the viewpoint shared by me and many religions reflecting that our gender was Chosen by God for a purpose.

This does not mean We don't support Equal rights Such as suffrage and equal treatment and the right to choice.

Many do not share this veiw but it is important that while Preaching Tolerance you don't become Intolerant of valid world Veiws

Err...yes it's sexist. It's pretty much the very definition of sexism - to claim there is a god-given role for men and another for women. Or maybe it's bigotry. Or both.

Anyway...casting a woman as a lead in a action-oriented Star Wars movie fortunately doesn't in any way hurt women. Nor do I think very many will give up on the concept of family to become scavengers or Jedi. So all in all I think TFA is safe for everyone.

Oh, I see.

A - "I'm a vegetarian. I don't eat meat."

B - "But you just eat that entire steak over there, that means you're not a vegetarian."

A - "That's not meat, that's just a good source of protein."

B - "But it's cut from a dead cow. It's meat by, like, definition."

A - "You've just called me an animal-killer. That is Unacceptable. Clearly you are incapable of reasoned discussion."

B - "I DON'T KNOW WHAT WORDS MEAN ANYMORE." - Goes home, starts drinking, moves onto crystal meth, sits in shower crying and drawing on self, gives up on humanity, abandons worldly possessions, wanders off into wilderness, eats the wrong kind of berry, dies from catastrophically uncontrollable bowel evacuation.

A - "Being a vegetarian is awesome." - Continues to eat bacon.

------

I tried, I really tried. Oh well.

Having been brought up to believe that in any reasoned discussion both sides of the argument should be allowed to be presented, and in an effort to balance the discussion which seems to presently be weighted along religious lines, I'd like to leave this report on genetics and gender produced by the World Health Organization. Not only does it present the scientific view on how gender is determined (sex determination and differentiation) but also looks at conditions that arise from sex chromosome abnormalities (I am using the word abnormality purely in it's scientific sense and not the cultural or religious sense) such as Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome and Hermaphroditism where physical sex is unclear from outward appearances.

WHO article on Gender and Genetics

Enjoy!

EDIT - I've just realised the my five-hundredth post on a forum about playing with plastic toy spaceships is in regard to the wrongs of sexual stereotyping in the twenty-first century... Go figure! :/

Having been brought up to believe that in any reasoned discussion both sides of the argument should be allowed to be presented, and in an effort to balance the discussion which seems to presently be weighted along religious lines, I'd like to leave this report on genetics and gender produced by the World Health Organization. Not only does it present the scientific view on how gender is determined (sex determination and differentiation) but also looks at conditions that arise from sex chromosome abnormalities (I am using the word abnormality purely in it's scientific sense and not the cultural or religious sense) such as Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome and Hermaphroditism where physical sex is unclear from outward appearances.

WHO article on Gender and Genetics

Enjoy!

EDIT - I've just realised the my five-hundredth post on a forum about playing with plastic toy spaceships is in regard to the wrongs of sexual stereotyping in the twenty-first century... Go figure! :/

As per latest observation, women and men are not equal. I believe a lot of what my hormone-controlled mind considers attractive in women arises from those differences. However, of cause they have and should have equal rights, duties, problems, wages, whatsoever howsoever..

I would also be more careful in arguing against certain genetic advantages or disadvantages of ethnicities or genders, as that might contradict some quite succesful scientific branches. Again, that does not mean that you should have to follow any of these dispositions, or that you should be regarded differently, but we are definitely not all equal. And luckily so.

/edit, just to make that clear, I am not in clons camp here - I would not sign his statement regarding men as breadwinners and women as homekeepers, and I reject any statement that is fueled by religious ideas and presented with little angles and doves on the side. I consider myself an atheist (level 5, no uniques..) and my above statement ist meant to put scientific views in the focus, not religious fables nor any PC-agenda.

The problem with the statement that men and women are better at certain things than the other is that people then take it to mean that because men are on average better at one very specific skill or ability, all men are better than all women at a job that uses that skill.

Most professions have many, many skills that are involved in determining success, and very few skills have a clearly demonstrated gender-based biological difference. On the other hand, many skills have a cultural bias towards a specific gender. Culture can and does change. If we want a true meritocracy, we should try to eliminate any bias without merit. Unfortunately, we have a long way to go.

...presented with little angles and doves on the side...

Like Acute and Obtuse angles?

That's an interesting slant on the subject...

I drove a tank in the us army. Pretty much, one of the most macho, bad ass things a 20 year old dude can do. (Imo)

I retired from that (because I was broken) to become a homemaker and stay at home dad.

Those two things, in the view of many, are completely opposite. I will tell you that raising a child has been levels harder than commanding an armored vehicle and laying waste and killing.

And just this week, the first female was admitted into the tank Corp.

My point is, a ***** and ****** are obviously physically different. Physiologically the two sexes are obviously different. None of that assigns roles to the sexes. WE as a developing society did it. And ultimately, it's wrong. Nothing is out of the capability of either sex. I personally attest to that in my life, and have been involved with many others that breach those society defined roles.

As an aside though, it's not just men doing the aggressive stereotyping. In my conservative community in Indiana, I was effectively shunned from all the play dates and group gatherings because I was male. It took, literally, three years of gentle requests and finally being given a chance to participate. Now....I'm just one of the "girls" ..... Haha..

Wow.... Ffg forum is sexist

In my post, ***** is NOT blocked but ****** is apparently a bad word...????

Couldn't make any more of a world view point than that....

And that blocked word is: v a g i n a

I'm not well versed in the behavioural sciences, but I think there is a long running debate wether behavioural gender differences (like girls generally preferring to play with baby dolls and boys generally preferring to play wargames like cowboy vs indian) are learned or (partially) innate behaviour. It is telling however that warfare has from recorded history been largely a male endeavour, which I doubt is only because of the physical differences between the genders. I suspect women are just wired differently than men up to a point, originating perhaps from when we were purely animals and the larger (alpha) males were responsible for the welfare of the group, as we see in the contemporary great apes.

Anyhow to get back to Rogue One, I think the only thing of importance is that the leading actor/actress is good for the role, regardless of his/her gender. I thought Rey was amazing in the Force Awakens, and the Rogue One actress seems to be good for the role as well. On the other hand when a movie depicts something historical like the Roman Empire's war on Dacia I'd really find it disgusting if they made the lead Roman Centurion a woman just to promote gender equality. I'm all for gender equality, but I hope they don't overdo it like with the LGBT equality movement that seems to have infiltrated all major tv shows that I watch. I swear that every goddamn series these days needs a homosexual couple in a main role and explicit sex scenes involving said couple before it is allowed to air.