Julia said:

Welllll... Let's just say I'm not making all revisions with equal urgency ;'D

Avi_dreader said:

::wink::

This is a custom Herald meant to create a little weirdness and craziness in the game. Powers on it were originally part of Barganon (Ancient One in the Custom thread...files also below), but were pulled off and put on a Herald largely to save people's eyes. And then more were added, just to make things more insane.

Large version here .

Eon file here .

Barganon Ancient One's image and Eon files.

The idea of "Power of Barganon" (especially when mixed with Barganon) is to add a considerable randomness to the game. It is entirely possible that this randomness will sometimes actually help investigators, but also possible that it will hurt them. Chaos can never be completely controlled.

Because it has been misunderstood before, let me emphasize that the "Even Identity Is Uncertain" effect, which makes you draw a new investigator card, does not mean that you discard your inventory and go through setup for the new character. You keep all your current cards (and tokens, trophies, etc.), your current damage levels (but reduce those to be within the new maximums if necessary), your current location, and any current effects on your character (such as bonuses or penalties to maximum sanity/stamina).

That's because making players draw and setup a new investigator every few turns would lead to quite a bit of irritation (not to mention probably make it impossible to win since you never got to keep your progress). This rule makes it more of a fun little twist, I think.

Best think of it this way: Chaos just changed you, not anything around you. Your personal story doesn't change because your identity underneath is still the same (your character has the same goal and memories).

Hrm... I was thinking of a zombie herald while driving home today. It'd function a bit like clothing drive except the zombies would be exact copies and near permanent. The Actual zombie would be in the graveyard and become a special movement monster. Its stats remain the same except it does not count against the monster limit, can only be taken as a trophy in combat, and... Has ten toughness ;'D Whenever its movement is triggered, all investigators are ambushed by a zombie. If an investigator is damaged by any sort of zombie, that investigator gets a zombie marker on them. If an investigator with a zombie marker is knocked unconscious, they are devoured. If an investigator with a zombie marker seals a gate, roll a die, on a failure, devoured. If an investigator with a zombie marker is devoured in Arkham, put a zombie token on the board where they were. It is like a zombie except it has 5 toughness and a -1 Awareness. It can not be removed from the board (defeating it in combat only counts as evading it).

I'd suggest using brood tokens as the zombie tokens and markers.

Any other suggestions for zombie infested Arkham?

When the Ancient One is not Glaaki, raise the terror level by one whenever an investigator is devoured. [i mean seriously, raising it by three? No way].

Avi_dreader said:

Holy mythos...10 toughness? O_O So yeah, don't expect to get rid of that thing.

I get that it might be interesting from a game mechanics standpoint, but I'm not really sure why sealing a gate would potentially turn someone into a zombie. O_O Unconsciousness, yeah...maybe even insanity (you lose the control and willpower that were keeping the disease/curse/whatever from taking effect fully). But sealing a gate? Not really the kind of thing I've seen in zombie breakout fiction.

I'm not entirely sure that I like the "defeating it in combat only counts as evading it." Defeating something in combat should always help you at least a little, in my opinion. Additionally, it is quite rare from what I have seen to have monster movies where there is no way whatsoever to stop the zombies or at least make them irrelevant (even if it means hacking their body into a billion pieces too small to move).

Maybe instead, the new zombies are Endless, meaning they can be removed from the board but not taken as trophies, but every time the Terror Level raises and you discard an Ally, you place one zombie of that 5 Toughness type down at a random location (maybe draw a Mythos card and place it at the gate location, then discard that card without doing anything else). That means you can clear them off the board but there's more opportunities to get them. (Actually, this would mean you get 2 zombies every time an investigator is devoured: the investigator and the ally).

Heck, you could even set it up so that you also count up any allies in the investigator's inventory, put those in the box, and make them zombies too.

Alternately, if you don't want to be able to remove them from the board, maybe the zombie is completely inactive and can be ignored the next turn, but comes back in full condition the turn after that.

I'd also like to see some mechanic for removing zombie marks, even if it is (and it probably should be) difficult to do.

Sdrolion said:

Re: gate sealing. You'll just have to think of some reason :') usually zombie invasions don't have dholes in the streets either ;'D Also, I'm not sure if I expressed this properly, but the gate sealing rolls may cause investigators to become zombies are only made if they are already infected.

The ten toughness zombie is not supposed to be defeated (it's theoretically possible, and given the right circumstances, actually possible, but I'm expecting it to be a rare occasion, not something to happen every game. I.e. strong fighter +8 weapons or more, at least one +2 combat ally, a few clues and a good combat skill or some other combat boosting special item). And of course, the reward for killing it will be not having the zombie swarms attack every third turn, and a 10 toughness monster trophy (and bragging rights).

Hrm... I think those ideas are all good sensible ideas, but they're generally not what I had in mind for this herald. I wanted to give players the sense that the town is utterly over-run (and getting more so as the game goes on). I've made heralds or scenarios that were supposed to cause this effect in the past (particularly the ones with Dracula, but also scenario 5 to a certain extent). I've found that allowing a remove mechanic, even if it's a bit difficult, tends to be exploited somehow, and will always undermine the premise of the scenario (i.e. increasing waves of difficulty). I want this herald to make the game harder as the game goes on (as the zombies do not leave and more of the powerful zombies enter the streets), not easier. I think I may allow for stunning them for a turn (the only problem with that is I wanted to use brood tokens as the zombie markers I figure if someone really wants to use this with Eihort, they can use a different type of token orrrrr, the Eihort brood tokens can *also* count as zombie tokens, heh heh heh, a Eihort/Glaaki herald... I like). And now, with a bit of imagination, you have a thematic reason for what gate sealing has to do with the zombie infestation ;')

Okay, how about an investigator who defeats one of the investigator replacement zombies in combat does not end his movement phase?

I might make it so investigators who seal with a zombie marker (brood token) are only devoured on a roll of 1-2 (otherwise this will be impossible as an Eihort herald). Or I'll just weaken that aspect just vs. Eihort. We'll see ;')

And c'mon, you *know* that once you're bitten by a zombie you're finished. No exceptions! What do you think this is, Resident Evil?

Sdrolion said:

It does ;'D it helps you not die.

Avi_dreader said:

Here's the problem, though. These things have 5 toughness, which is, while not as high as the 10 toughness one (and to be clear, I wasn't arguing to change that one...I think it's a great way to make it just barely possible to take the thing on), still amazingly high. That's higher than a Shoggoth, or the God of the Bloody Tongue. Again, not a complaint...I get that you want these things to be very, very tough to take on if you're in combat. But in almost every case I can think of, if I had any chance at all at an Evade, I'd keep going for that almost certainly instead of going to fight the thing...and, if I failed once, I'd probably keep trying to flee. They only have a -1 to your Evade chance, so frankly it is much, much, much easier to evade/flee from them, especially considering you know it's coming so you'd prep for evades. So in my opinion, you're not going to see anyone actually fight the thing unless you give them something meaningful for doing so. I get that your idea was probably to discourage combat anyway, but I think this goes a little further than that.

Being able to treat victory in combat as an Evade doesn't really change the situation...you're getting nothing over what you would have gotten if you evaded to begin with. I'd go with either the "zombie is ignored for one turn" rule, or some other positive effect that makes it...well, not worth the extra risk, but a little treat if you actually manage to do it.

Avi_dreader said:

I would at least make it so that defeating it in combat allows you to shift to the next space otherwise you're going to get some investigators sitting in the same spot fighting the same zombie the whole game since combat ends your movement. I guess another way of handling it would be that the "counts as evading" combat win also does not end combat, like you mentioned.

Avi_dreader said:

Depends on the flavor of zombie. Herbert West zombies weren't infectious.

Veet said:

Because they were cheap zombie knock offs! **** him for not making *real* zombies!

Veet said:

Actually, I was originally thinking of letting defeating the zombie allow the investigator to move an extra set amount of spaces (this would incentivize not completely avoiding them). And now that some of the recent objections have come up. What do you think, two more spaces?

I'll also give them ambush ;'D there, now there's no getting away from them.

Which reminds me, when the zombie surge occurs (when the zombie in the graveyard moves) those zombies actually ambush investigators. Well... That was the original idea. I mean, they only have one toughness and one horror damage, right? The main threat there is infection :'D

Sdrolion said:

I think I semi-fixed your other objections in my response to Veet. As for this part ;') It's true it's higher than a Shoggoth or GotBT, but on the other hand, it does minimal horror damage, and has an insignificant combat modifier (and only does two damage). It's actually easier than GotBT since you get three more dice, and the horror check is *much* easier and not too painful if you fail it (so you can afford to have your fight set higher), plus on the other hand, you won't take the nightmarish/overwhelming damage... But... You might get infected ;'D

I'd say it's more difficult than a Shoggoth though. But at least it doesn't double move, right?

The investigator-Zombies, are they stalkers?

Veet said:

No. But I could make them stalkers and lower their toughness by one. What do you think?

Avi_dreader said:

Well, in regards to the bit about moving after defeating one, if they were stalkers and an investigator only got to move 1 space after defeating it there would be a 1/3 chance that it would follow them the next turn. If they are not stalkers this chance is greatly diminished. If you allow the investigator to move 2 spaces this chance is all but eliminated.

Avi_dreader said:

Yeah, I have no problem with the zombie surge. I think that's a terrific idea, and using the lower-level zombies for that makes it just threatening enough to be worrisome.

As far as my other concern...it depends. Are you trying to give us a reason to go and fight them , or are you trying to give us a little consolation award if we're forced to fight one (because we failed our evade) but managed to pull through?

If you want us to go and fight them , willingly risking it sometimes, being able to move another two spaces after I fight them (or even two spaces + whatever I already had left over if I still get the rest of my normal move) is totally not enough to encourage me to actually take one of those things on. If you want me to willingly go fight one, it needs to be for something that would actually give me, or my team, a little help. The "they stay idle" thing is an example, because a strong fighter could go knock a zombie loopy once in order to let a weaker one with low evade slip through without having to fight. It's something that wouldn't serve a purpose most of the time, but could provide a good bonus, enough to willingly risk it in a rare situation. Another thing I might willingly risk it for would be something like a clue token.

If you want to give us a consolation for those times when we unfortunately have to take one on because we failed Evade, though, the two-space movement is nice enough.

It's all in what you want the investigators to do. If your goal is "evade these things all the time , no question, but if you meet one you at least get a little help living through the next round if you survive," then you're set. If it's "at some times, you should want to take the risk of fighting one in order to get a little help in a rare situation," then I don't think you're there.

Veet said:

I'd keep them at their current toughness but not do the stalkers thing. Zombies do sometimes chase people, but they aren't exactly known for their amazing intelligence. If you evaded one or knocked one a little loopy and bolted (the combat victory), it shouldn't know where you are. And they're also often portrayed as not really being aware of things until they're really close, so having a zombie in one location know where an investigator is and move specifically for him doesn't really work for me. Maybe if there wasn't anyone else in Arkham and you could argue that the investigators are the only living flesh around to eat, but as far as I know you're not having everything in Arkham start closed.

Maybe when the Terror Track reaches a certain level they become stalkers?

Veet said:

It's almost definitely going to be a 2 space movement for defeating one of them. (Unless a good reason comes up for why it shouldn't be allowed). If you can chain your movement with these guys, I will call it Riding the Zombie Train :'D

Avi_dreader said:

Unless I'm seriously missing something, while it is a neat concept, there is no way I would try chaining movement on these guys. Risking giving the board another 5-toughness zombie in return for a couple spaces extra movement? Risking that multiple times? Nuh-uh.

Avi_dreader said:

It is potentially exploitable, though I'm not going to call that a good or bad thing. An investigator geared up to be a monster killer could use an area with some monsters plus a zombie to kill all the monsters, then fight the zombie and move to another location with monsters and kill them. The right setup could lead to a pretty wild ride around town shooting everything that moves.

Sdrolion said:

Shotgun + Grapple = not much of a problem hoping around on the zombie train. This is not the only combo that could do that.

Veet said:

It's still a little risky ;') considering that if you get knocked out by one you'll be devoured, the terror level will rise by one, and there'll be another large zombie on the board. But, hey, it'd be really fun, and hilarious.

Also, as Veet said, it can allow you to pick off normal monsters, theoretically several in a turn, if they are sharing spaces with the large zombies. You might want to get yourself blessed before trying this though ;') and now that I realize *that* I might leave the zombies at five toughness (with stalking). Talk about a potential exploit!

Avi_dreader said:

What if you're driven insane?

@Sdrolion

Who knows, you might need those two extra movement, (and it'll let you jump over a monster baracade sometimes). The idea wasn't really an incentive to fight them (the ambush will *force* you to fight them if you fail your evade check against them), it's just a little potential bonus for winning. You're much better off avoiding them most of the time if possible.

I don't want to tie clue tokens to them. Too potentially exploitable (especially if you herd two or three of them together). Besides, I don't really want investigators fighting them generally, they're just a way of causing the overrunning of the town to feel increasingly intense over time.

So yeah, I'm not trying to generally incentivize combat against them.