As regulars know, there recently was a forum topic about the difficulty of being able to be fast enough to get somewhere, while still being stealthy enough to get past monsters. The original poster thought it was a failed mechanic of the game. As many others, I disagree. I believe that those new to the game often miss out on the advantages to using sneak to get past monsters, and thus, my post is here is directed towards those who are less experienced in the game.

My thoughts, as I considered this manner, lead to another game that I play. In this game, you have characters of various abilities and strengths dealt out to you. There are multiple paths to victory. To play this game, once you get the hang of the rules, is fairly easy. To master the game though, you need to adapt your own playstyle to the strengths of the characters. The use of several characters isn’t immediately obvious, and the game revolves around you getting the most efficient use of your characters. I see Arkham as being the same way, to a lesser extent. Certain characters are designed to be stealth characters, with there being no greater example than Wendy. I know that some on this forum recount their initial dislike playing her, until they learned to play the stealth game. The move and fight game for monsters is obvious from the outset. The stealth-by-them method, on the other hand, takes a while to develop typically, due in part the difficulty of balancing speed and stealth. There is a real challenge in this, as you have plan out your move carefully beforehand. However, I believe that taking advantage of evading monsters in general offers a better chance of victory. I believe in the effectiveness of evading monsters so much that I am perfectly willing to go through games with one Mists of Rylieh, while everyone else is gearing up for combat just in case they meet some nasty monsters. I’ve done this often, and rarely do I end up in the hospital or asylum.

Evading monsters is typically more efficient than fighting them. If you can sneak past a monster on the street and get into a gate, then that’s faster then fighting it one turn and sneaking in the next. The other factor that makes sneaking an effective tool is that most of the monsters that are very difficult to fight have a low awareness modifier, and are much easier to sneak past than fight. The monsters with a high awareness modifier, with the exception of the star vampire, are all fairly easy to beat. Also, fighting typically needs two rolls to go well to avoid taking any damage, while evading only requires one. There are also situations in which it would take you two turns to get through a gate anyway because of the need to fight monsters on the way. An investigator can then take his first move to instead move to a safe location near where he needs to go, and then next turn bump up his sneak as high as possible while still having the minimum speed to get in the gate. This also leaves sneak high for other world encounters of monsters, something that I always try to maximize in my other world journeys, as monsters are a common encounter.

Sneak isn’t the end all be all of the game. There are times when you need to go guns blazing. But it is an important mechanic to the game to master if you truly are going to use characters to their best advantages. Several characters cry out for the good use of sneak, such as Wendy, Finn, and Mark, and the proper use of it can lead gates being closed more quickly, and clues collected more effectively. This in turn leads to a better chance of a seals victory, and a better chance for you to save the world.

Renderfalls said:

Quite excellent review of Sneak and Evade.

Mark especially is a fooler character. Just how does he do all the Evading with a Flamerthrower tank strapped to his back? Instead of "One man Army" he really is a One Man Special Ops. "Most people think Mark Harrigan is crazy."

mageith said:

It's actually just a bottle of rotgut and a book of matches.

Very nice, Renderfalls. Total agreement with all of that. It's why any "adventuring party" needs a "thief".

One note: I noticed from your Investigator Ranking thread that you play all board expansions. It has been my experience with such games that time (number of turns) becomes a great deal more of a factor. Gates fly open far and wide, and Doom Tokens pile up like dirty socks. Sneak becomes so much more of a commodity, because you don't have any time to stop for monsters. On the other hand, all those gate locations cut down on monster surges quite a bit, so killing monsters is a less pressing concern as well.

I think that's part of why the newer players don't recognize the larger utility of Sneak: the game doesn't really push them into experiencing it until they start expanding, forcing them to open their minds a bit. With a "smaller" game, removing Terror Track fodder is often a more immediate tactic. To their credit, FFG found a clever middle ground with Innsmouth, a single expansion with a terrific Sneak mechanic built right in.

And, of course, all of the above could be completely moot with thoughtful assignment of tasks amongst the players. One leaves the monsters for the Investigators that want them (Tony, William, Michael), and let the stealthy ones win the game. (Rampaging Deputy Emily and trying-not-to-be-seen Mageith come to mind.)

jgt7771 said:

A molovov cocktail smells funny and Mark smokes (both not conducive to evading past monsters), and a flamethrower is an actual weapon from WWII. (I reexamined the picture and think that's what's there) All the little green soldiers have (had) at least one in their platoon as well as a mine sweeper.

Sometimes I'll thoughtfully defeat my share of monsters but Emily is very consistent in her bloodthirsty desires.

I'm not saying I totally disagree with you here, but let me voice devil's advocate for a moment.

In the base game, with Kingsport, and BG, and Cotdp, .... you're probably right. Sneaking can be very very effective because you can 'save' turns and therefore do more stuff. The reason for this is that with these expansions killing monsters really isn't all that important. It's secondary. monsters get in the way, and that's why they need to be taken out, but if they're not in the way, no problem.

KiY and Innsmouth, however, make killing monsters very, very important. So does Glaaki and to an extent, Hastur. Dunwich also has this trait to a lesser extent, if you use the DH herald. Basically, whenever you're playing with something that has an effect directly tied to the terror track such as the KiY or Father Dagon heralds, sneaking starts to look a lot less good. Not only is killing necessary up in Innsmouth, but if you play with Father Dagon (which I always seem to be doing these days) than your group had better be very efficient at killing monsters, and sneaking by them just won't do. Monsters that you're *not* killing will pile up in arkham, leading to terror rises and very nasty trigger abilities.

Now sure, sure, some characters are better at sneaking, some are better at fighting. You can still use characters who are better at being stealthy in stealth mode sometimes, but probably the case is going to be that just one dedicated monster killer isn't going to cut it. Your sneaky characters are going to have to fight some of the time, and when this comes up their lesser fight stats hurt them.

Surprise and Ambush monsters weaken evade further. I know there is a cotdp ow encouter where the God of the Bloody Tounge surprises you: take that, Wendy! But maybe the killer is that if you fail your combat check, providing you can take the loss of stamina and the other monster abilities (if any) dont take you out of the fight when you fail a combat check, you can try again to kill the creature. With sneak, one dice boop up and you have to stop moving, which was probably the entire point of you trying to sneak by the monster in the first place.

awp: I'm not saying I totally disagree with you here, but let me voice devil's advocate for a moment.

In the base game, with Kingsport, and BG, and Cotdp, .... you're probably right. Sneaking can be very very effective because you can 'save' turns and therefore do more stuff. The reason for this is that with these expansions killing monsters really isn't all that important. It's secondary. monsters get in the way, and that's why they need to be taken out, but if they're not in the way, no problem.

KiY and Innsmouth, however, make killing monsters very, very important. So does Glaaki and to an extent, Hastur. Dunwich also has this trait to a lesser extent, if you use the DH herald. Basically, whenever you're playing with something that has an effect directly tied to the terror track such as the KiY or Father Dagon heralds, sneaking starts to look a lot less good. Not only is killing necessary up in Innsmouth, but if you play with Father Dagon (which I always seem to be doing these days) than your group had better be very efficient at killing monsters, and sneaking by them just won't do. Monsters that you're *not* killing will pile up in arkham, leading to terror rises and very nasty trigger abilities.

If everything worked for every investigator all the time then the multitude of investigators and Old Ones would be waste of paper. This discussion for me is in the light of an assertion from another thread that sneak/evade is so useless it's a design flaw. Glaaki is my nemesis. I hate his/her servants. Wendy is always good no matter who's she's up against. However, against certain AO, she may be devoured or less useful. In certain parties, the same fate has awaited.

Now sure, sure, some characters are better at sneaking, some are better at fighting. You can still use characters who are better at being stealthy in stealth mode sometimes, but probably the case is going to be that just one dedicated monster killer isn't going to cut it. Your sneaky characters are going to have to fight some of the time, and when this comes up their lesser fight stats hurt them.

Depends on how many players. We play from 3-6. Our third player, Jennie goes both ways. She's OK with stealth but not afraid to get her sword bloody or even cast some appropriate spells. If we play with more, ALL but one of them, wants to fight!

Surprise and Ambush monsters weaken evade further. I know there is a cotdp ow encouter where the God of the Bloody Tounge surprises you: take that, Wendy!

Been there, died that.

But maybe the killer is that if you fail your combat check, providing you can take the loss of stamina and the other monster abilities (if any) dont take you out of the fight when you fail a combat check, you can try again to kill the creature. With sneak, one dice boop up and you have to stop moving, which was probably the entire point of you trying to sneak by the monster in the first place.

Evading is both easier to do and harder on an investigator if s/he fails. Make sense to me. All in all, I think I've been rendered insane or unconscious more often from a monster I should have defeated rather than a monster I should have evaded.

Renderfalls said:

That poster was me. And I stand by my point that the sneak/speed slider, as implemented, is a flaw in the game design.

I find it interesting that you reference Wendy and Mists of Releh in your post. Mists is a great spell, (as is Summon Shantak, btw) and serves very well to show how powerful evading monsters is. But it's so powerful only because it allows you to avoid the normal sneak/speed mechanic. The same goes for Wendy's special ability, which is what makes her such a good stealth character.

Sure, she also has great sneak/speed stats, which she needs when she wants to sneak into guarded gates. BUT! This only serves to underline my original point. Wendy (and Finn) are great at sneaking, but they have a total of +3 to their sneak/speed slider. There's not a single investigator with a +3 total to their will/fight or lore/luck slider. That right there is a pretty strong indicator that Kevin, or whoever else designed those characters, realized that normal sneak/speed doesn't quite cut it.

There are a few other characters that are good stealthers. Wilson, because of his motorcycle, Trish with her unique slider mechanic, Joe and Rita. That's 6 out of 48. Every one else is dependent on random items and skills to buff their sneak/speed slider (and focus, for focus 1 characters) into a workable state, or they have to draw items or spells that allow them to ignore it (Mists, Shantak, Car, Brain Case, etc.)

(*Mark? With a measly +1 sneak, and focus 1? Really?)

If I were to draw an analogue, that's like if there were only 4 investigators with lore 5 in the game, Joe and Rita having lore 4, and everyone else mucking about with lore 3 or less. I'd call spellcasting flawed game design too, in that case.

I also disagree about your monster assessment. It's somewhat true, but there are plenty of critters that break the mold. Dark Young are -2 and hard to defeat. Ghost are -3, and problematic if you don't have magical weapons or clue tokens to spend. Gugs, -2, 3 toughness. Vampire, -3, 2 toughness, -3 on the combat check. Spectral Hunter. Star Vampire Gnoph-Keh. Ghast. Not huge quantities, but if you play with 5+ investigators mostly, as my group does, those 2 monsters per gate add up. You can't sneak past a Dhole quite so easily, if there's also a cultist in the same street.

More than half of the monsters in the game are -2 awareness or worse. They may be easier to beat, on average, but trying to sneak by them will give you a bloody nose more often than not. The times when it works will be offset by the additional time you spend in the hospital, most likely. For the vast majority of investigators, even a -1 awareness monster poses too great a risk to sneak past with any acceptable speed.

There are also situations in which it would take you two turns to get through a gate anyway because of the need to fight monsters on the way. An investigator can then take his first move to instead move to a safe location near where he needs to go, and then next turn bump up his sneak as high as possible while still having the minimum speed to get in the gate.

The minimum speed, in a situation exactly as you describe, is 3. Only one of the 6 investigators mentioned above has sneak 4+ at that speed. If you take the monster's awareness into account, you'll have 2 dice left at the most, for the rest of the investigators, with more having only 1 die, and many 0.

Next, a word about efficiency. While I do not deny that situations crop up where sneaking is the optimal choice, much more often, fighting is. Maybe my view is colored by our 5 player games, while everyone else here plays with 4 or less. But consider: What is more efficient, one investigator sacrificing his turn clearing the street (gaining a trophy, keeping the monster limit in check), or multiple investigators having to sneak past the same monster, probably at speeds no higher than 3, with a high likelyhood at least one of them will fail his check, keeping him on the street regardless. (And hurting, possibly even incapactitating him.) It's much more likey there's one investigator in each game who can reliably defeat a monster, than that every investigator in the game who needs to can reliably sneak past it.

Now, to strike a more reconciliatory tone, I have to agree that stealth can't be too easy. If every investigator had the chance of becoming a Wendy with just an item or two, it would be a much more serious balance issue. The terror level, and therefore, the monster limit, being as negligible as they are most of the time, (and probably worthy of their own design flaw discussion), it would break the game to have one or more investigators each game who can just ignore all monsters. Still, the designers missed their mark in the original game, and you can see by some of the new expansion additions (elusive monsters, Innsmouth curfew, Wendy, Finn, Trish) that they've tried to adjust it.

And lastly, I'll give a hands on example to illustrate my point; a couple of days ago, we played our first Kingsport game, against Atlach-Nacha. The game took 12 turns (all gates closed, De Vermiis Mysteriis ftw!), there were 4 players. Apart from Wendy, sneak was only used once, well twice, technically. Charlie Kane moved from the Witch House, where he had closed a gate, to an open gate in the STL, evading a maniac and tcho-tcho priest on the street. (the priest could've killed or seriously injured him). As he had a motorcycle, and a +1 sneak environment was in play, he had 4 dice, and succeeded both times. Of the three non-Wendy characters,only one guy ever used sneak, in one of twelve turns, and that was a game where we deliberately kept our eyes open for stealth opportunities. (We killed about 10 monsters, and the terror level rose once.)

Hannibal Rex said:

I disagree completely. The designers probably felt that it fit Wendy's and Finn's characters that they were both stealthy and mobile. A bootlegger and a street urchin? I believe it. +3 on Fight/Will is hard to contemplate to fill a particular role; +3 Lore/Luck even less so.

Hannibal Rex said:

Mists of Releh is the same mechanic as evade. It just opens up that mechanic to lore characters and only once. I guess the difference is that lore user doesn't have to slow down to use it? On the other hand, you do have to give up your luck or most of it to use it.

I still can't quite put my finger on your complaint. It seems obvious that you have to slow down and be more careful to evade past something. Perhaps if you said how you'd fix evade?

If you have 3 dice, you'll evade 70% of the time. The reward is that you can keep moving. The penalty for failure is that the monsters bite you then you have combat. Another penalty is that if you are very far away, you might not make it and end up the streets or an intermediary location.

If a monster has 2 toughness it takes 6-7 dice to have the same chance (65%-74%) in addition you will need to take a horror test. In order to have the same chance as evade with 3 dice. You'd need 4 horror dice (80%) and 7-8 (80%-86%) combat dice to go unscathed. Of course, if the monster isn't too horrible you can take the sanity hit. Your reward is that you usually get a monster trophy. The downside is that your movement ends. You lose a turn if the monster is in the streets. No character comes out of the gate with those kind of dice. Just like for evade, help is needed and available.

You say there are few really good evaders. From my experience with many, many different players, however many there are is too many. If given a choice, almost all will go a mediocre fighter over a good evader. I've yet to see a player get Wendy on their first play through and Finn players almost always speed their $8 on a magic weapon if they can get one.

Many people, myself included, think the most important stat in the game is speed (movement). A speed 3 investigator will waste several turns a game in the streets and will usually find it impossible to evade and get anywhere. In order to gain a decent evade one has to give up his very valuable speed points.

But still, I'd really like to see your fix for speed/sneak.

OP:
I agree with everything you said.

Evade is as good and useful as it needs to be. Theres also items/allies/skills that makes it fairly easy to use even with bad sneak characters.

If I did not use sneak as effectively as I am now, I would surely loose alot of games due to time loss!

mageith said:

Mists removes the sneak skill from the equation. It tilts the already unequal balance of speed and sneak even further in favor of speed. Luck is nice to have, but it isn't as utterly essential as decent speed (in Arkham).

If I had a quick and easy fix, believe me, I'd post it in an instant. If I could send the designers back to the drawing board, I'd have them reduce monster awareness almost universally. Above, you give an example of having 3 dice for the evade check. Now, if a completely average 4/4 investigator tries to sneak past a Dhole, one of those supposedly tough-but-easy-to-sneak-by monsters, he'd have to reduce speed to 1 to even get those three dice. (And he'd probably need focus 3 for that.) The reward is that you can keep moving? How exactly do you move past a monster when you have speed 1?

Maybe I'm disregarding items too much. But to me, it seems a lot easier to get decent weapons (and max will) than it is to get enough sneak/speed items to make a difference. (That might change once I get BGotW, and its military motorcycles.)

The problem I have is that I don't see how you would ever voluntarily attempt to sneak past a monster with any but the few top tier stealth investigators. I'm sure as hell not trying with one or two dice for the check. Just go somewhere else entirely instead of decreasing speed, and wait til the street sweepers have done their job. The speed argument seems to disregard that there are multiple investigators around. If you evade the monster, you have to evade it again and again, until eventually someone will fail their check. (That, or you manage to close a corresponding gate) But if someone kills it, not only does he get the trophy, but all other investigators are able to move full speed ahead.

Hannibal Rex said:

1) Perhaps an average 4/4 investigator needs help. He is average after all. If I just had to face a dhole I'd calculate the changes of killing it vs. sneaking by it. I'd look at the number of clue tokens I had to spare and I'd take the chance that gave more the best odds. There is supposed to a danger and investigators are calculated to fail from time to time.

2) It is a lot easier to get decent weapons and that's probably a bone FFG threw to players to sell their game. The main reason I like this game is that a lot of the rules are there to model the "reality" of the literature. I have a sears catalog from about 1926. Most of the costs are OK except for weapons which are much cheaper in the game than in the catalog. In addition, if an alien monster is coming at you, how many shots would you really get with a double barrelled shotgun? All monsters should not actually be killable, IMO. Arkham Horror is partly a puzzle that needs to be figured out before time runs out. Can I afford to allocate clue tokens to sneak by this monster and save a turn but risk losing more than a turn?

3) Again, its a matter of calculation for me. It only takes one success to evade past a monster. It usually takes more than one success to fight a monster. Or as you say, go somewhere else or call in the marines. Kill or evade or ignore is a tactics question. Since its a dice game, notthing is guaranteed. And I love it!

Well, this has been an illuminating discussion, over these two threads here. (and I've also had some good feedback over at BGG.) While I still don't consider the stealth mechanic fine as is, there have been some good counterpoints.

1) If reliable stealth were easy to achieve, it could break the game. If monsters cease to be effective obstacles, the investigators would have too easy a time, as usually the increase in terror level is only a minor inconvenience.

2) My opinion on stealth might be coloured by the fact that I've mostly played with 5 investigators. With lesser numbers, you both can't afford to have dedicated monster slayers as easily, and won't need them as much, as there are less monsters on the board. Stealth will be the optimal choice more often.

Still, I wish the fight/evade/avoid optimal choice would come down in favor of evade more often. But I'll keep playing, and be on the lookout.