My only desire for B-wings (and X-wings for that matter) is a mid PS generic with EPT.

Okay, I really wasn't trying to start some fight here. I was just trying to trigger a discussion on fighter roles. I've played this game since wave 3,I've played b-wings in tournaments many times, heck I've win tournaments with b wing squad's, I was just thinking that, like the e1 mod, adding variety is good. From the conatined comments here in thinking that the knife fighter mod was mistake, I agree that a point fix is not warranted. I thought that clear by making nothing free, but we'll let that go. Let's refocus. What should a player do to help play as a knife fighter or a cannon platform. If my goal is play with b-wings, what do I need to do to be effective right now. Maybe this needs to be a different thread, or maybe there is one. If there is already a current thread please link it so we can see.

I expect that tractor beam will bring B-wings a more prominent role in Rebel squads.

I expect that tractor beam will bring B-wings a more prominent role in Rebel squads.

yea, I think wave 8 will put Bwings in a good place.

I don't think b-wings need very much help....

but I'm not going to lie, that doesn't mean I don't want some more goodies for what is probably my favourite rebel ship.

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing is something like the TIE/D upgrade in the forthcoming imperial veterans pack: Some way to allow you to fire your primary weapon after you shoot a cheap cannon upgrade.

In fact I think that upgrade could port straight from defender to b-wing with only minimal tweaking to account for fcs.

I would really like a little something to add some specificity to the B-wing.

Something like :

Canon upgrade - Modification - 0pts

B-wing only

You can equip up to two Canon upgrades on that ship.

The cheapest of the two upgrades is free.

That would add some polyvalence, without adding to the firepower of the ship, which is fine imo.

that sounds VERY unbalanced.

You still have to choose which canon to use every turn; and still have only one shot a round.

Looks way softer than dual-shooting defenders...

(note: I am an Imperial player. I have very recently picked up a most wanted set and I have literally 0 rebel ships or pilots.)

It's my opinion, as someone who is always the opponent and never the player of a B-wing, that the B-wing will never perform amazingly well without the player of the b-wing knowing exactly what they want to do with it. I'm personally no longer afraid of 4bz, however if I went back to flying tie swarm, I would consider it a problematic match-up again. Most any list I fly now includes at least one "ace". Recently I've taken up a list featuring 2 FO's and Vessery. That list wouldn't appreciate B-spam. I've luckily not run into that list at a tournament. They've been there, but not matched against me. I think the B is doing just fine, Right where it should be. It still hedges the x-wing out of competitive play, and it even discourages most people from flying generic t-70's which is astounding to me.

I would really like a little something to add some specificity to the B-wing.

Something like :Canon upgrade - Modification - 0pts

B-wing only

You can equip up to two Canon upgrades on that ship.

The cheapest of the two upgrades is free.

That would add some polyvalence, without adding to the firepower of the ship, which is fine imo.

that sounds VERY unbalanced.

I would really like a little something to add some specificity to the B-wing.

Something like :Canon upgrade - Modification - 0pts

B-wing only

You can equip up to two Canon upgrades on that ship.

The cheapest of the two upgrades is free.

That would add some polyvalence, without adding to the firepower of the ship, which is fine imo.

that sounds VERY unbalanced.

Not really. I read that Engine Upgrade is no longer cannon.

what does that mean?

Veteran Gamers know how to fix little issues and we do not need to come on a game companies forum to scream bloody murder about the gad-**** rules. UHhh-Nah we just house rule it up... glorious like.

See how easy?

Problem is when you actually want to go to tournaments, official FFG tournaments especially, then you don't get any houserules.

Is the B-Wing actually bad? I'd say it's a preference based more on preferred playstyle than anything else. I'm afraid that JB, like many others here, is simply tired of this inflated speech about making ships better. Unless you want to be buying X-WIng codices every 6 months and getting G1-A Starfighters ala' limited edition dataslate formations, then by all means... Fix Away!

Are you sure we are not buying something similar every 6 months? Star Viper having cards that nearly every TIE Interceptor uses on a nearly every build;I'm sure someone isn't but the vast majority are using them. TIE Advance fix in the Raider. Just to name two.

Wow.....people are now saying B-WINGS need a fix?!?!?!

Doesn't BBBBZ just eat up 4 x TLT's these days?

Personally, I think it's only the rise of arc dodgers that are killing B-wings at the moment. I think they will see some reduction with Wave 7 and Imperial Vets coming. Even if it's just fewer people running Palp & 2 Aces. Still, I think ordnance will help hurt the Soontir Fel / Vader meta. I think once things get overall more balanced, we could see B-wings again.

Then again, why always maximize on the same ship type? Why not some sort of combo of TLT's and B-wings in a list? Maybe with one named guy? I tend to like varied lists, not maximized ones (errr....except my Tie Bombers, that is!).

I agree with both of the above, there is constant talk about upgrading and buffing. I think it is getting a bit much and I've seen players here and on other boards saying they are getting overwhelmed. But also I've seen others that say they enjoy spending hours putting together different squads, spending far more time squad building than playing.

But that is part of the game and business model. New ships, new buffs, new upgrades. And as long as this brings back old ships it doesn't count as power creep. This is a deck building game with miniatures; buffs and upgrades are a big part of it. While some are laughing at the B-Wing needing a buff I'm sure that sometime after the X-Wing is buffed again more and more will say the B-Wing needs a buff, then the Y again, then the E then.... or you can change the order but it is coming. We need and want more complication depth.

It will need a fix. We just don't know when yet, but it's coming.

[Edit sorry if my cynicism was a bit over the top]

Just as a personal opinion, the more I think about it, the more I think the decline of jousters has absolutely nothing to do with TLTs (not directly at least), but rather with the direction the game is heading toward. I've only played for about 1 year, but since I started playing, two high PS, good at arc dodging ships have been added to the game (Poe and Vader, well, Vader kinda was there before, but I never saw any before the Advanced fix), and that's without counting any of the TIE/fo pocket aces. Wave 8 brings 2 more (Dengar and Inquisitor). Nowadays, lists are full of ships that have no problem dodging the arc of a PS2 generic (unless they get blocked, but if you find yourself often blocking with a b-wing, you might want to rethink your strategy) and fat turrets are all but extinct. IMO, in order to be useful, a generic needs to have some tricks up his sleeve, be a good blocker (A-wing, Z-95), able to be fielded in mass (preferably with crack shot, like TIEs) or just shoot out of arc (like TLT do). Honestly, I think the age of low PS, shoot just in arc, have a decent (but not awesome) dial is gone, for now at least. Without TLTs, I don't think people would field more B-wings, but rather reorient themselves toward multiple Z-95s or just free up some points and bring pocket aces (like a Tycho or Jake),

When giudance chips drops, ywing/Bwing are goinf to have the same relationship with torps that ywinf and kwing have with TLT. More expensive with more capabiliry and options.

B-wings = most efficient points on the board

LoOoOoOoOoOove the B-wing. It just takes 1 evade on 8 rolls for all four of them to get to shoot and wreck a TLT list's day.

Veteran Gamers know how to fix little issues and we do not need to come on a game companies forum to scream bloody murder about the gad-**** rules. UHhh-Nah we just house rule it up... glorious like.

See how easy?

Problem is when you actually want to go to tournaments, official FFG tournaments especially, then you don't get any houserules.

Which is one reason why a lot of us do not go to turnies...

Veteran Gamers know how to fix little issues and we do not need to come on a game companies forum to scream bloody murder about the gad-**** rules. UHhh-Nah we just house rule it up... glorious like.

See how easy?

Problem is when you actually want to go to tournaments, official FFG tournaments especially, then you don't get any houserules.

Which is one reason why a lot of us do not go to turnies...

For tournament goers only hope to see aspects of the game they find unenjoyable fixed is to post here and hope FFG listens.

They are good for Sabine + Bombs + either Tractor or Ion cannons... throw bombs around and use control to make sure people are running into them.

I have a great idea for jousters. How about a modification card that costs zero points, and that allows you to change one die to a hit or a crit when firing a missile or torpedo? If you have a primary attack of three, you get a crit, if you have a primary attack of two, you get a hit. This would help B-Wings a lot, but all jousters could benefit.

Like guidance chips?

i think thats what he was getting at... that Bs are already receiving improvements

I don't think b-wings need very much help....

but I'm not going to lie, that doesn't mean I don't want some more goodies for what is probably my favourite rebel ship.

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing is something like the TIE/D upgrade in the forthcoming imperial veterans pack: Some way to allow you to fire your primary weapon after you shoot a cheap cannon upgrade.

In fact I think that upgrade could port straight from defender to b-wing with only minimal tweaking to account for fcs.

Just make it a BWing only system upgrade

done

Okay, I really wasn't trying to start some fight here. I was just trying to trigger a discussion on fighter roles. I've played this game since wave 3,I've played b-wings in tournaments many times, heck I've win tournaments with b wing squad's, I was just thinking that, like the e1 mod, adding variety is good. From the conatined comments here in thinking that the knife fighter mod was mistake, I agree that a point fix is not warranted. I thought that clear by making nothing free, but we'll let that go. Let's refocus. What should a player do to help play as a knife fighter or a cannon platform. If my goal is play with b-wings, what do I need to do to be effective right now. Maybe this needs to be a different thread, or maybe there is one. If there is already a current thread please link it so we can see.

I guess I misunderstood the intent of this thread, in that case I will present a couple ideas that could bring the B more in line with its role lore-wise. Of course something just like the TIE/D title makes the most sense and would be easy to make, but that takes away from the "specialness" of that oddball so here's a couple other ideas that add some extra flavor and spice...

- Cannon Fire-link (3pt-ish system or maybe 5pt-ish title) "You may add your primary weapon value to one cannon attack per round. If you do so then the defender doubles their defense roll and you may not make a primary attack this round."

The point values might be a little low; as a system slot this idea would cost less than a title because of the opportunity cost in excluding other goodies like FCS. Also the last sentence could rewrite to double the defender's result instead of dice.

- Assault Fighter Type-B (3pt title) "After attacking with a [cannon] secondary weapon you may immediately perform an attack with a [torpedo] secondary weapon."

This sort of fits your "knife-fighter" profile when combined with FCS it allows a torpedo attack on something you just red-maneuvered into view of.

- Assault loadout (4pt title or modification) "When you equip this upgrade, place one extra munitions token on each equipped torpedo upgrade. When you would discard that torpedo you may instead discard one extra munitions token instead"

Yep, this is exactly what it looks like: put more torpedoes on your B-wing.

Is this more what you were thinking of SamTheJ? Some extra flavor for a ship that doesn't need any more substance. My point values are probably low for the spicy kick in these flavor additives.

Veteran Gamers know how to fix little issues and we do not need to come on a game companies forum to scream bloody murder about the gad-**** rules. UHhh-Nah we just house rule it up... glorious like.

See how easy?

Problem is when you actually want to go to tournaments, official FFG tournaments especially, then you don't get any houserules.

Which is one reason why a lot of us do not go to turnies...

That doesn't make people who go wrong though.

For tournament goers only hope to see aspects of the game they find unenjoyable fixed is to post here and hope FFG listens.

Oh I know. I went to many Games Days and almost worked for GW back in the late 90's... lol.

The thing that I do not like about it is that some people take ALL of the fun out of it. Now that I am older and way-chill I rather stay my fat ass happy at home and never have to be annoyed when I am playing with my wonderful toy spaceships.

If I want competitive... I rather just wrestle around or play some football or sum such other dumb (but fun) mans games.

Gonna take this moment to do a shameless plug for a new segment the Scum and Villainy podcast will be doing where we look at a list and talk about how it matches up against certain archtypes. First episode will air some time next week and this is the list we'll be looking at https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel%20Alliance&d=v4!s!44:-1,-1,-1,-1:-1:-1:;44:-1,-1,-1,-1:-1:-1:;32:72:-1:15:;9:135,-1,-1,69:-1:-1:;65:-1:-1:-1:&sn=Unnamed%20Squadron(mine from Worlds).

BLUF:

Preventive Maintenance (0 pts) Title: B-Wing only: Treat 1-Turn as a white maneuver. After performing a 1-Turn maneuver, roll one attack die. Upon a critical hit, discard this card.

Heavy Hitter (1 pt) Title: B-Wing only: Once per round, after you perform an attack with a secondary weapon that costs 3 or fewer squad points, you may perform a primary weapon attack

Large Target (1 pt) Title B-Wing only: When attacking with your primary weapon and targeting a large or huge ship that revealed a 1 or 2 speed maneuver during activation, add 1 additional attack die.

I have played B-Wings in tournaments but NEVER would play a BBBBZ just on principle. My favorite was two blues with Autoblaster cannon and EU (which with a low PS is nearly useless and required some extreme flying) supported by a Blue with Sensor Jammer and HLC.

But for the points to field them and their weaknesses (1 agility and poor dial so stress is DEVESTATING) they are not worth taking into a fight. In addition, with the toolsets available over the different waves, the flexibility has been mostly missing for B's.

One item that has always bothered me is considering that the B-Wing is suppose to be a heavy fighter with great maneuverability but high maintenance costs to maintain, I knew there needed be some mechanic to cover the "expense" part. To me this has been the point cost. But what has been left out is the firepower. Linked cannons with lasers along with additional ordnance. You just have to hope that the cockpit rotation does not fail.

So why in the heck is the 1-Turn is red? It should be white. WHITE.

Now, the missing item for B-Wings is a Title.

With the TIE/D Title, this is what the B-Wing in cannon already had in it's arsenal. So this should be a no thought future addition and I agree with keeping cost to less than 3 pts cannon even though I love the Autoblaster.

Heavy Hitter: Title: B-Wing only: Once per round, after you perform an attack with a secondary weapon that costs 3 or fewer squad points, you may perform a primary weapon attack

Perhaps another title can fix the 1-Turn to a White, perhaps there is a maintenance check that upon a crit will return the 1-Turn to a RED.

Preventive Maintenance (0 pts) Title: B-Wing only: Treat 1-Turn as a white maneuver. After performing a white maneuver, roll one attack die. Upon a critical hit, discard this card.

Perhaps this could be another dual card...determined during setup?

I truly don't believe this is power creep but more inline with expected performance like the BTL-A4 title for the Y-wing.

Finally, the B-Wing is suppose to be a fighter with additional damage capability against larger ships. Perhaps a title focusing on large or huge ships.

Large Target (B-Wing Title 1 pt): When attacking with your primary weapon and targeting a large or huge ship that revealed a 1 or 2 speed maneuver during activation and a target lock on the defender, add 1 additional attack die in your attack.

Just some quick ideas.

B-wing it´s ok as it is, the problem is the Y-wing TLT (just move and throw dices) kills the match

A B-Wing's role? It's a bomber.

In classic air superiority definitions, well, read the end of the post I'll skip to the meat now.

How to mitigate its problems? Well, the days of generics as more than filler are... gone for now unless they have an EPT. There are so many more interesting aces with interesting abilities that can be stacked on top of EPTs, so generics are at a disadvantage. Guidance Chips will help; the B-Wing is one of a very few ships that can take advantage of the turn-to-crit rule.

Also accept that a B-Wing IS going to die two or three turns into the actual furball. No regen + no dodging = what shoots at it will hit it, and those 8 hit points WILL go away. Don't overload them; GC+EM+Protons is a better bet than a Laser Cannon with 1 (maybe 2) dice of 4 being an auto-crit, and even if it lives to fire both shots it still has a 3 dice primary.

You could fit 3 Blues outfitted like that into a list with enough room for a Z-95 Tala with Tracers - or 2 Blues with a Tracers Blount and a Stresshog. Or give them FCS and having a Lone Wolf regen Poe as your last ship. Or perhaps walk them with Biggs and a Tracers Tala if you're good at formation flying...

Any way you slice it, the Gchips give the B-Wing potential. But I'd also look to the named pilots.

Ten Numb + VI + Mangler can lay serious pain on Soontir Fel and other weak interceptors, even at range 3, and can keep Soontir in arc fairly well thanks to its short-range maneuverability. I'm really surprised he's not used more, what with Emperor Palpatine being so common. It's too bad Navigator's so expensive, because it would help his ace hunting even more - but 40 points is too much.

Nera Dantels + Guidance Chips + Proton Torpedoes (or Flechette Torpedoes) + Extra Munitions is a short-term PWT that can really lay the pain for fairly cheap and with Flechettes can put Stress as well as damage on sensitive Aces.

Keyan Farlander has potential similar to Soontir's; I'm not sure I'd put anything on him other than PTL or Advanced Sensors to either always get that stress token or get your action before revealing a red maneuver. In theory, you can spend a stress token to 'move Focus' even if you didn't roll any Focus (if it works just like Focus tokens do!) so you can always clear the stress in your own phase provided you have a shot. Maybe with a Tractor Beam, too? VI + Tractor could be interesting...

There are three classes of single-pilot aircraft: interceptors, dogfighters, and bombers. Interceptors are fast but lightly armed; they spring forward to tie up enemy interceptors or harass unescorted enemy bombers. Dogfighters are slower, but still maneuverable and can turn well; their job is to threaten interceptors and kill the bombers. Bombers are slow but inflict heavy damage; their job is to get in close to a large target and ruin it.

You might notice that by those definitions the A-Wings and E-Wings are interceptors, X-Wings and Z-95s are dogfighters, but the Alliance has an overabundance of bombers in the K-Wing, Y-Wing, AND B-Wing. On top of that, the environment that we're 'simulating' is naturally disadvantageous to the bomber typing. Its natural prey - the Huge ships - aren't used, and their predators (the interceptors and heavily armed dogfighters) are heavily favored. (also, the rules generally equate the cheaper Large ships with an expensive bomber, making the footing a little too equal there!)

You also might notice that of those three bomber types the Alliance has, two of them have access to turrets. That helps mitigate the natural problem of a bomber, but doesn't help the B-Wing match up to its brethren.

Really, the B-Wing is closer to a fighter/bomber; carries enough ordnance to ruin its targets but still can mix it up in knife fights. However, it doesn't have the durability to keep in the fight, and doesn't have the speed to break engagement and re-engage on its own terms. In terms of X-Wing, its role as a jouster is to take the hits and hope to dish it out faster - which it has trouble doing now that common lists just outfly it.