I've used it on kavil and I felt bad after he dominated that match and the other guy just had to watch his aces being chipped away turn by turn.

They should of been a point more.

But then again, you always brag about how you dominate each game with the Tie Defenders and I don't hear anyone saying that they should cost more. I've played a game two weeks ago in a tournament against a 4TLT list and I crushed it. In another tournament we had, a 4 TLT list ended up last. Should they be 1 point less then?

TLT are just fine. They are part of the current meta and must be taken into consideration when going into a tournament. Just like Palpatine+Aces, Regen ship, Stresshog, Dual IG, Swarm, etc. If you bring nothing to counter it, or don't have a plan, you can expect to lose. But that's on you, not the TLT.

No less dull than the endless fat turrets we used to have to face.

I kinda wish they were 1-2 rather than 2-3. 2-3 makes them really **** powerful.

I've used it on kavil and I felt bad after he dominated that match and the other guy just had to watch his aces being chipped away turn by turn.

They should of been a point more.

But then again, you always brag about how you dominate each game with the Tie Defenders and I don't hear anyone saying that they should cost more. I've played a game two weeks ago in a tournament against a 4TLT list and I crushed it. In another tournament we had, a 4 TLT list ended up last. Should they be 1 point less then?

TLT are just fine. They are part of the current meta and must be taken into consideration when going into a tournament. Just like Palpatine+Aces, Regen ship, Stresshog, Dual IG, Swarm, etc. If you bring nothing to counter it, or don't have a plan, you can expect to lose. But that's on you, not the TLT.

Yeah but it takes skill to use the defender, it's no effort to swoop around at speed three and shoot out of arc.

The TLT seems "great" because it is only competing with poor/marginal upgrades. Autoblaster Turret? Ok for 2 points, but difficult to use so it struggles to impact a game. Blaster Turret? Only useful on multi-action ships, and even then it's very questionable. ICT? Terrible for damage output, solid for control, limited range. Makes it a specific upgrade for a specific list but not generally useful.

So 2 turrets with very specific uses, and one turret that is just plain bad except on very specific ships where it manages to be marginal. Of course a decent upgrade looks powerful when that is its competition. It would be like saying Lone Wolf is super powerful, if we were limited to only 2 point EPTs. It isn't really that great, so much as the other 2 point EPTs are either specific use (Juke needs Evades) or just plain bad.

Sure you've got a point, but let's not forget TLT is statistically superior to a regular 3dice attack at ranges 2-3 aswell. It's not broken but you can make a very good case for it being slightly undercosted for what it does.

A good indicator of it's power is that it has pushed a ship that used to be perfectly fine out of the meta almost completely: The B-Wing (and z-95 to a degree). Heck, if you have 24/26 points to fill out a list, how many times will your first thought not be: Let's throw a TLT y or Stressbot in there.

And there's the answer.

And when I first started buying into X-wing (pre-TLT) the forums were full of Y-wing hate...... saying their best use was as a spoon for your cereal. The change this one little upgrade has wrought on the meta is nothing short of amazing.

I truly wish people would quit throwing around the "no skill" label. It isn't true of TLT, it wasn't true of Fat Han. The only ships I felt had some of that were pre-Nerf Phantoms, because they could react with perfect knowledge of the gamestate, and even then only against lists with a lower PS.

As for what the TLT does, Celes I agree with your assessment in the particulars but not the conclusion. I won't repeat your post, I will just point out the part where I disagree.

Speaking for myself, the TLT was intended to have the effect it did. We were reaching a point in X-Wing where a truly new player not only couldn't expect to win a tournament (just fine, why would they?) but could expect to get mauled badly by everyone they met. Going 0-5 with every game a rout is not fun, and does not give them incentive to keep playing. We needed an upgrade that would have a high skill floor, to give those folks something that they could use in order to be in the game and have some measure of success. The problem is that it is very, very difficult to create an upgrade that helps new players significantly without being broken in expert hands. I felt, and still feel, that TLT provides a way for a totally new player to have a chance and put up a decent fight, without becoming some uber-hammer in the hands of the top players. I like that I can face a new player and he is able to play a list that requires me to play well if I want to beat him. Something whose mechanics are straightforward enough to be accessible immediately but not so powerful that I expect top players to spam it.

But then again, you are right. I am not a new player, and while I try to put myself in their shoes ultimately it is theory not experience. I hope that as a new person they appreciate having a decent list accessible to their skill level, and as they play they can begin to see the way to move forward with more effective lists and will leave it behind.

FYI: I no longer play test and haven't for some time. It was ruining the fun for me, I like getting the new stuff with everyone else and sharing the excitement. Play testing was like having every new Star Wars movie spoiled months before it came out. :-)

I used to play Kavil with Blaster tuiret.It was always disappointing as you needed the focus action to fire. The other turrets just didnt have much punch.

Now with the TLT Kavil is much more effective, I use him with bombs, Genius and EU and he excels as a bomber and can shoot

I've used it on kavil and I felt bad after he dominated that match and the other guy just had to watch his aces being chipped away turn by turn.

They should of been a point more.

But then again, you always brag about how you dominate each game with the Tie Defenders and I don't hear anyone saying that they should cost more. I've played a game two weeks ago in a tournament against a 4TLT list and I crushed it. In another tournament we had, a 4 TLT list ended up last. Should they be 1 point less then?

TLT are just fine. They are part of the current meta and must be taken into consideration when going into a tournament. Just like Palpatine+Aces, Regen ship, Stresshog, Dual IG, Swarm, etc. If you bring nothing to counter it, or don't have a plan, you can expect to lose. But that's on you, not the TLT.

Yeah but it takes skill to use the defender, it's no effort to swoop around at speed three and shoot out of arc.

It also takes skill to fly a TLT list. I know that it is fun to snob ship with turrets, but if you're not careful with them, it's still game over. And they have only agility 1, so they're not hard to take down.

I never personally ran the list, but I went against it a couple of time, and very often against list with one or 2 BTL title or not, and there is a clear difference between a 4 TLT list run by a good player and one run by a new player. Unless I really didn't build with the idea that I might run against that list (something that you really should not do considering the current popularity of the list and the myth that it is a no skill list), the new player just have no chance (or very little, because you know, dice). There is a lot of way to counter it, exploiting the range 1 bubble being the easiest. We are talking about Y-Wings here: very predictable dial, no way to reposition and probably moving and shooting at PS2. Twin-Turret just finally made them viable in the current game. They are good against low agility ship, but once you start having more agility; or worst for them, Autothrusters; or even worst, Sensor Jammer, they won't deal that much damage.

Sure, they can be annoying, but so can Soontir, or Han, or Dash, or a Phantom, or IG-88 and soon enough Vessery with title and Ion Cannon, or a Blount+Z swarm with missiles, or Dengar, etc, etc, etc....