TLT isn't a guarenteed two damage, though. Against high-agility ships, especially if you're lacking dice mods, you'll be lucky to pull off one damage.

I think the reason it's such a painful upgrade is that the double shots effectively halves the value of defensive dice mods. Yeah, high agility is one of the TLT's weaknesses, but it's less of a weakness when you consider that it wears down evade tokens and focus tokens so quickly, while also denying that range 3 agility bonus.

It's not a guaranteed 2 damage a turn, but it's just a very reliable damage output.

NPE is always going to be subjective. It's when something becomes NPE for the majority of people that it becomes a problem. As a TO I'd like to think I have a rough idea of the general mood, at least as far as my locality is concerned, and tlts is a problem for a lot of people.

There was a problem with fat turrets too. Trouble is at the moment they're hardly seen at all, which is a shame. If you reduce tlts down to having 2 or 3 in a list, it still causes the fat turrets problems, but gives them a fighting chance.

NPE is always going to be subjective. It's when something becomes NPE for the majority of people that it becomes a problem. As a TO I'd like to think I have a rough idea of the general mood, at least as far as my locality is concerned, and tlts is a problem for a lot of people.

There was a problem with fat turrets too. Trouble is at the moment they're hardly seen at all, which is a shame. If you reduce tlts down to having 2 or 3 in a list, it still causes the fat turrets problems, but gives them a fighting chance.

It's not a shame that probably the biggest NPE list archetype is no longer super common.

Just because a ship type is no longer in 50%+ of lists and is now represented about as much as your average ship does not mean it's been nerfed too hard. A RAC with Predator, Gunner, Vader, Ysanne, and Engine Upgrade can autokill a ship a turn. A Falcon with C-3PO and R2-Dcrew and the title is still invincible and broken.

People thought this about the Phantom when it was nerfed. No, now it's just represented normally instead of having the entire meta revolve around it.

Tlt is THE card that defined wave 7 and has had way more of an effect on the meta game than anything else from that wave. It's funny that wave 7 people were calling the ordinance wave what with all these new bombs, missiles, and extra munitions. Everyone was theory crafting these great k wing, y wing, punsiher, and bomber lists using all these new mines, traps, missiles and what not. Sadly it all as I predicted got eclipsed by a 6 point upgrade that comes with a k wing.

Imagine the current Metagame if Tlt didn't come out yet. I think we would see way more representation from the ordinance carriers and people actually setting up nice plays with Connor nets and the other bombs out there. Alas it's far too easy to just Tlt things to death so that's a world we may never see. When people go back and think wave 7 they're gonna say oh that's the wave the Tlt came out and the bossk ship too.

I agree with others though in that 4 tlts is just absolutely horrible imo to play or play against. It makes so many ships just completely unplayable. X wings, falcons, khiraxs, yv's, scyks, and firesprays just become ridiculously outmatched and makes winning waaaay harder. I'd love to see them make it limited to 1 or 2 per squad. 4 just seems excessive.

All that being said if you're a tourney player looking to win don't worry about other players feelings when it comes to that, we'll suck it up and play the game. Heck I even use 1 in my list because it's such a good card and really opens up my ship and what he's able to do with it.

NPE is always going to be subjective. It's when something becomes NPE for the majority of people that it becomes a problem. As a TO I'd like to think I have a rough idea of the general mood, at least as far as my locality is concerned, and tlts is a problem for a lot of people.

There was a problem with fat turrets too. Trouble is at the moment they're hardly seen at all, which is a shame. If you reduce tlts down to having 2 or 3 in a list, it still causes the fat turrets problems, but gives them a fighting chance.

It's not a shame that probably the biggest NPE list archetype is no longer super common.

Just because a ship type is no longer in 50%+ of lists and is now represented about as much as your average ship does not mean it's been nerfed too hard. A RAC with Predator, Gunner, Vader, Ysanne, and Engine Upgrade can autokill a ship a turn. A Falcon with C-3PO and R2-Dcrew and the title is still invincible and broken.

People thought this about the Phantom when it was nerfed. No, now it's just represented normally instead of having the entire meta revolve around it.

Exactly. On the store championships that I have been to there were some fat turret lists, but never more than 20% of the field. That is a level of representation that I am fine with. They also didn't do terrible, so saying TLT killed them off is wrong.

Fat turrets definitely aren't dead and you can't blame 1 card against it. A combination of autothrusters, half points, and tlt's really makes it seem like the deck is so stacked against you its not worth the risk. Dash is still able to do his thing and I honestly believe the next wave with dengar and tractor beams will see the return of the turrets.

Reading this thread and the others like it, you would expect to be finding 4xTLT everywhere. And yet.... you don't. Looking at the store championship threads there is maybe (and I mean maybe) one 4xTLT in the Top 8 in perhaps a third of them. There are a healthy number of one-TLT or rarely two-TLT lists, but TLT spam just isn't very good and that is reflected in the results.

I grant that this is competitive play, but since that is really the only place we have data as well as the place where you would expect balance issues to show themselves it looks like 4xTLT just isn't the boogyman it is made out to be. It just isn't that good.

If the complaint is that it allows new/marginal players a chance to be competitive I'm afraid I don't have sympathy for that point of view. I want accessible lists for new players, I think that is something we should all want. If the complaint is that it is "easy mode" that allows poor players to beat the best, then that is objectively untrue as evidenced by tournament results. The TLT hit exactly that sweet spot where it helps the new players without becoming overpowered in the hands of experts. 4 x TLT does allow a new player to go 50-50 on a Saturday when they wouldn't have otherwise, but it does not allow them to win it all. If they want to do that, they will need to get a "high performance" list with a higher top end but no training wheels. Seems perfect to me.

If you consider it NPE I'm afraid there isn't much I can do to change a purely subjective opinion like that one. It doesn't end ships instantly, it provides opportunities for counter play, it avoids all those things that are generally considered NPE. For example, the control lists I am fond of can easily become an NPE if they get too powerful because they prevent their opponents from making any decisions. Pre-nerf Phantoms could be NPE because their reactive movement could easily make their opponent's choices irrelevant. TLT does none of that.

JMO, but it seems to me like the main problem with TLT is that so many people complain about it that it has gained far more infamy than it's use or results justify.

TLT=Cancer

Not feeling TLTs. I'm aware that they're effective, but I don't like artifically cqpping my own damage output and I don't enjoy giving up the opportunity of causing critical damage.

TLTs just don't seem like a lot of fun to me. Imagine rolling three natural critical hits, to only cause one face-down damage. Ugh.

A RAC with Predator, Gunner, Vader, Ysanne, and Engine Upgrade can autokill a ship a turn. A Falcon with C-3PO and R2-Dcrew and the title is still invincible and broken.

While some are quick to dismiss you as blindly hateful, there are usually some good (sometimes very good) points and arguments in your posts, you just mask them under thick layers of hyperbole and vitriol to the point where you can barely see them any more.

TLT=Cancer

That's probably the most tasteless thing I've read all day.

Ok so it will at least make two shots for damage per turn...if you roll hits of course...

You have to roll hits on EVERY ATTACK ANYWAYS. Even then, Unless the ship has 1 agility, you're likely to push through 2 or less damage. With TLT, even if 1 hit remains uncanceled, that's still 1 damage. And then you do it again.

The point is that TLT outperforms basic attacks against filthy evade-tokened up PWTs

and that's the reason PWT-era ended in a puff of blood

4 TLT and admitted relatively new player went 5-1 in a store championship, losing only to me in the final round where I used Palp Shuttle + Colzet/AC + Wampa + Jax(PTL,SD, RG, AT)

It required every ounce of maneuvering properly and dice luck to pull out a win where every other player had failed.

Its just bloody boring and ridiculous to deal with. Might as well be Unique or something. Or honestly it should've been K-Wing only or something.

I don't really understand the excitement over the Dorsal Turret. 2 dice at range 2 isn't great and 3 at range 1 is decent, but why not just go with auto turret for unblockable hits at that point?

I don't really understand the excitement over the Dorsal Turret. 2 dice at range 2 isn't great and 3 at range 1 is decent, but why not just go with auto turret for unblockable hits at that point?

Because being able to chuck any dice at R2 with a turret is pretty good, where the autoblaster can't reach.

Last 2 store championships I attended there were 3 players with TLT lists.. and I was one of them. Scum Ys with Unhinged astro and BTL-A4 title.. it's a rough list, I came in 5th today and a friend took the first store champ. we went to,a few weeks ago in Chicago. He's a better player than I am and we thought of the list about the same time when it first came out. it's not a very complicated list to figure out, but flying the BTLs is a little more challenging. I was 6 points of MOV off from 4th place, which another friend placed, and a non BTL list like mine took 2nd place today..

Last 2 store championships I attended there were 3 players with TLT lists.. and I was one of them. Scum Ys with Unhinged astro and BTL-A4 title.. it's a rough list, I came in 5th today and a friend took the first store champ. we went to,a few weeks ago in Chicago. He's a better player than I am and we thought of the list about the same time when it first came out. it's not a very complicated list to figure out, but flying the BTLs is a little more challenging. I was 6 points of MOV off from 4th place, which another friend placed, and a non BTL list like mine took 2nd place today..

BTL-A4 makes a low skill floor, low skill ceiling list into one that is a lot harder and more capable, but I think idealy you want to mix it up with 2 BTL-A4s and 2 Turrets.

I don't really understand the excitement over the Dorsal Turret. 2 dice at range 2 isn't great and 3 at range 1 is decent, but why not just go with auto turret for unblockable hits at that point?

It's cheap and it doesn't require a token to fire.

Certain aces will combine with them incredibly well where the tlt option becomes "meh" for the points invested.

PTL unhinged kavil for instance makes that 3-4 dice that can be double modified every turn, while the speed 3 greens play into his strengths ( overshoot arcs)

drea does the same thing after her 1st attack, the use of the focus recycling tl's

Tlt is THE card that defined wave 7...

So we can go ahead and give up on calling Wave 7 the Wave of the Bomber or Ordnance. Wave 7 was the Wave of the Turret, even more so than Wave 5!

But it's a different kind of turret, at least. It's brought the small ships back to the table.

Reading this thread and the others like it, you would expect to be finding 4xTLT everywhere. And yet.... you don't. Looking at the store championship threads there is maybe (and I mean maybe) one 4xTLT in the Top 8 in perhaps a third of them. There are a healthy number of one-TLT or rarely two-TLT lists, but TLT spam just isn't very good and that is reflected in the results.

I grant that this is competitive play, but since that is really the only place we have data as well as the place where you would expect balance issues to show themselves it looks like 4xTLT just isn't the boogyman it is made out to be. It just isn't that good.

If the complaint is that it allows new/marginal players a chance to be competitive I'm afraid I don't have sympathy for that point of view. I want accessible lists for new players, I think that is something we should all want. If the complaint is that it is "easy mode" that allows poor players to beat the best, then that is objectively untrue as evidenced by tournament results. The TLT hit exactly that sweet spot where it helps the new players without becoming overpowered in the hands of experts. 4 x TLT does allow a new player to go 50-50 on a Saturday when they wouldn't have otherwise, but it does not allow them to win it all. If they want to do that, they will need to get a "high performance" list with a higher top end but no training wheels. Seems perfect to me.

If you consider it NPE I'm afraid there isn't much I can do to change a purely subjective opinion like that one. It doesn't end ships instantly, it provides opportunities for counter play, it avoids all those things that are generally considered NPE. For example, the control lists I am fond of can easily become an NPE if they get too powerful because they prevent their opponents from making any decisions. Pre-nerf Phantoms could be NPE because their reactive movement could easily make their opponent's choices irrelevant. TLT does none of that.

JMO, but it seems to me like the main problem with TLT is that so many people complain about it that it has gained far more infamy than it's use or results justify.

I think what we're seeing here is quite possibly a rift between different levels of gaming that is neither new or unique to x-wing. Let me try to paint the picture:

Top players, and i do mean the absolute elite, such as yourself are able to be effecitive using lists that require (relatively) more flying expertise than TLT lists , meaning you are able to fly a list with a higher skill ceiling and actually make use of it's (superior) potential compared to the average guy playing x-wing casually. Consequently you perceive TLTs as not very troublesome, you have to account for them when building your list but you should be able to overcome because you have such an expert knowledge of the underlying mechanics of the game. Since these top players usually populate the top tables we dont see much TLT spam on the top tables unless they occasionally sneak in.

Talking to intermediate players, who i classify as those who might go to tournaments every now and then to compete, but are not as dedicated as the top group, i see more mixed responses. Some don't mind TLTs at all, some perceive them as a NPE (to fly or to fly against), but the overall consensus seems to be mostly that the meta is in a decent place right now and much better than last year. I dont get the feeling that even if TLT is an issue for them it's anywhere close to pre-nerf Phantoms. Since this is probably the most diverse group in terms of experience and skill i feel like this is pretty close to what we see on the FFG forums.

Going further down the experience/skill curve, however, the skill ceiling of a list becomes less important. These are people who don't play competetively at all, say a dad with his son, they most likely dont even read any forums or online sources. These players dont operate near the skill ceiling of any lists, they operate closer to the skill floor. And this is exactly the place where TLT has a lot of benefits over most non-TLT lists, much like PWTs used to have (which i'm not going to repeat for the 1000th time here). This group is most likely affected by perceived imblanances the most because it lacks the experience/skill of countering them effectively.

Let me add some anecdotal evidence to that: A few weeks ago i introduced my younger cousin to xwing. After some introductory rounds i picked a Fat Han and absolutely picked his random list (Defender and some TIes) apart. He was amazed at what Han could do and wanted to play him. I then let him take Han while i switched to a TLT list (classic 4Y 1 with title/stressbot) and absolutely wrecked his Han list 2 times. Again he was amazed and had no idea how he could possibly overcome the might of my 4 Y-wings. Then i gave him the TLT list and put 2Brobots on the table, the rest is history. Granted my cousin was just introduced to the game, but i imagine FFG knows exactly how much of their customer base is made up of very casual players who play just for fun and dont spend a lot of time thinking about strategies or how to counter a specific list. I imagine it's quite a substantial part of their playerbase (even more so after EP7).

And yes i'm cruel but we're family so there's that

FFG and the playtesters have the interesting challenge of balancing the game for all these groups and for all skill levels. Ideally, even casual players shouldnt get stomped just because of the fact that they run into this list or that list (which of course, will never be entirely the case).

I would argue that they have done an outstanding job so far, compared to many other games. However, that doesnt mean they always get it 100% right for all player groups and, as evidenced by the controversial topic that is TLT (still), it seems a part of the playerbase thinks TLT came out slightly too good compared to the skill level where most of x-wing is being played.

I also dont think there is anyone to blame to be honest, the nature of playtesting means that it's usually going to be more experienced players doing the testing (such as KO or Heaver) so occasionally a card might slip through that shakes up the skill floor/ceiling spectrum a bit.

Part of this was probably intended, and part is just doing the best you can during testing and hoping that the cards that come out have the impact you think/hope they have given the uncertainty that always comes with the limited ressources of a testing process of any kind (the most obvious being time).

Again, compared to many other games they have done an outstanding job so far, in my opinion.

You know something's OP when people feel they must defend it, same happened with phantoms and fat Han.

I've used it on kavil and I felt bad after he dominated that match and the other guy just had to watch his aces being chipped away turn by turn.

They should of been a point more.

You know something's OP when people feel they must defend it, same happened with phantoms and fat Han.

I've used it on kavil and I felt bad after he dominated that match and the other guy just had to watch his aces being chipped away turn by turn.

They should of been a point more.

Thats a really bad measure that puts too much emphasis on the people who have a bad understanding of game mechanics. TLT would have been fine at 7 points, but it isn't broken. People would complain anyways, because it has a different problem: At a low level it is the least exciting matchup imaginable. When people are good it becomes a tense fight of concentrating fire and using croisants, but if one player doesn't quite know what he is doing, it is boring and one sided.

Speaking as someone who is part of a relatively recent group of players (skill level amongst the group is variable but definitely ascending) tlt's are not that scary.

First couple of times I played them I felt dirty enough that I wanted to go home and take a shower afterwards, but it didn't take very long at all for people to adapt to them.

Fast forward to where we're at now, and the tlt's have become just another tool at our disposal. Me and the people I play with on the regular still respect them, but they aren't scared of them any more, because we've learned how to deal with them.

Heck, an imperial aces list gives me more trouble than a few boats loaded up with tlt's.

Even at 7 points then you could just do 3 Y Wings + 1 HWK and still have 4 so thats not the fix.

It rips apart 0-1-2 AGI ships, it has a decent chance of ruining a 3 AGI low hull (TIE Fighters or Interceptors) because Green Dice are unforgiving - especially with 2 attacks a turn.

1 or 2 turrets in a list is fine, but 4 turrets is just disgustingly boring to go up against even if I win