Seriously. How vital is it actually to shipsthat can take it?

It's not: the Ion Cannon Turret's also a good option, and a few niche ships make good use of the Autoblaster. TLT is popular for its superior range and damage output over Ion Cannon Turret, but it isn't vital.

The TLT seems "great" because it is only competing with poor/marginal upgrades. Autoblaster Turret? Ok for 2 points, but difficult to use so it struggles to impact a game. Blaster Turret? Only useful on multi-action ships, and even then it's very questionable. ICT? Terrible for damage output, solid for control, limited range. Makes it a specific upgrade for a specific list but not generally useful.

So 2 turrets with very specific uses, and one turret that is just plain bad except on very specific ships where it manages to be marginal. Of course a decent upgrade looks powerful when that is its competition. It would be like saying Lone Wolf is super powerful, if we were limited to only 2 point EPTs. It isn't really that great, so much as the other 2 point EPTs are either specific use (Juke needs Evades) or just plain bad.

Sure you've got a point, but let's not forget TLT is statistically superior to a regular 3dice attack at ranges 2-3 aswell. It's not broken but you can make a very good case for it being slightly undercosted for what it does.

A good indicator of it's power is that it has pushed a ship that used to be perfectly fine out of the meta almost completely: The B-Wing (and z-95 to a degree). Heck, if you have 24/26 points to fill out a list, how many times will your first thought not be: Let's throw a TLT y or Stressbot in there.

And there's the answer.

Seriously. How vital is it actually to shipsthat can take it? So many good options out there. I can see maybe 1 on a pertucular ship (K n Y wings) but how many of you guys use them? I've seen a few games on youtube n no one has been using them.

Just curious. I'm ready to be ripped to shreds lol

OMG, yes.

I love me some TLT goodness. Usually you'll want 2 or more ships with it to net you 2 to 3 damage a turn, but I've been guilty of the 4 thug Y, TLT, unhinged astro list on more than one occasion.

It's not as fun to fly as most lists but it puts out a veritable crapstorm of shield stripping, hull melting goodness.

You probably won't make any friends though

I only play casually thus far. For fun, I like trying to build lists that, maybe, can beat some of the top meta build lists like Y-Wing TLTs. So far as yet it is really hard to go up against multiple TLTs without any at all. You have to fly really well. Where as the TLTs do not have to fly well. As it stands I am an average flyer at best. Making up challenges like that is fun for me, and it makes my kids feel good when they decimate me with turrets

Precisely this, there's a much lower requirement for effective maneuvers when you have effective turrets. Equally the demand on your opponent is that much higher because "just" getting out of arc doesn't guarantee safety. The chances of taking out a Y or K in a single round of shooting with anything short of a Crack Swarm with Howlrunner are pretty low.

The TLT seems "great" because it is only competing with poor/marginal upgrades. Autoblaster Turret? Ok for 2 points, but difficult to use so it struggles to impact a game. Blaster Turret? Only useful on multi-action ships, and even then it's very questionable. ICT? Terrible for damage output, solid for control, limited range. Makes it a specific upgrade for a specific list but not generally useful.

So 2 turrets with very specific uses, and one turret that is just plain bad except on very specific ships where it manages to be marginal. Of course a decent upgrade looks powerful when that is its competition. It would be like saying Lone Wolf is super powerful, if we were limited to only 2 point EPTs. It isn't really that great, so much as the other 2 point EPTs are either specific use (Juke needs Evades) or just plain bad.

Sure you've got a point, but let's not forget TLT is statistically superior to a regular 3dice attack at ranges 2-3 aswell. It's not broken but you can make a very good case for it being slightly undercosted for what it does.

A good indicator of it's power is that it has pushed a ship that used to be perfectly fine out of the meta almost completely: The B-Wing (and z-95 to a degree). Heck, if you have 24/26 points to fill out a list, how many times will your first thought not be: Let's throw a TLT y or Stressbot in there.

And there's the answer.

TLT is statistically superior, when not accounting for a R1 blindspot and the fact that it replaces the current attack for +6 points. Which it should be. Why would you pay for an upgrade that didn't actually upgrade your attack? If we are putting conditions on such as "at range 2 or 3" we can as easily say "The TLT is statistically inferior to a 1 die primary at range 1". Overall, the TLT is roughly equivalent to a 3 die primary, IMO, when you consider both the advantages and disadvantages inherent to it (no extra green at R3, no shot at all R1 instead of +1 die, better at stripping tokens but capped damage and no crits ever).

As far as the B, I disagree that the TLT has done anything at all to push it out except indirectly by countering large-boost-turrets. The dearth of B-Wings is due to the shift towards high PS ships capable of dodging arcs. In a B-Wing vs. TLT matchup, the B-Wing is still going to come out ahead (Blue+FCS for the same points as Gold+TLT). B-Wings are suffering because the game has shifted away from pure low-PS joust efficiency, the B-Wing's greatest asset. In a TLT-less world (assuming some other upgrade that toned down Boosting Large Turrets to make room for high-PS dodgers) the B-Wing would still not see much play time.

JMO.

The Range 1 donut hole is kinda misnamed, it's more of a croissant, in that you still get your 3/4 primary weapon dice you'd normally have, you're not losing your "main" guns. And at range 2 or 3 in or out of arc they are FAR better than anything but an exceptionally good roll with a 3 dice primary vs a poor set of greens.

Croissants are much better than doughnuts.

The Range 1 donut hole is kinda misnamed, it's more of a croissant, in that you still get your 3/4 primary weapon dice you'd normally have, you're not losing your "main" guns. And at range 2 or 3 in or out of arc they are FAR better than anything but an exceptionally good roll with a 3 dice primary vs a poor set of greens.

Yuuuummmmm, Croissants....

Kavil's ability on the HWK:

"When attacking a ship outside your firing arc, roll 1 additional attack die."

So, would a Blaster turret be better (if he had Recon Specialist)?

Yes

The TLT seems "great" because it is only competing with poor/marginal upgrades. Autoblaster Turret? Ok for 2 points, but difficult to use so it struggles to impact a game. Blaster Turret? Only useful on multi-action ships, and even then it's very questionable. ICT? Terrible for damage output, solid for control, limited range. Makes it a specific upgrade for a specific list but not generally useful.

So 2 turrets with very specific uses, and one turret that is just plain bad except on very specific ships where it manages to be marginal. Of course a decent upgrade looks powerful when that is its competition. It would be like saying Lone Wolf is super powerful, if we were limited to only 2 point EPTs. It isn't really that great, so much as the other 2 point EPTs are either specific use (Juke needs Evades) or just plain bad.

Sure you've got a point, but let's not forget TLT is statistically superior to a regular 3dice attack at ranges 2-3 aswell. It's not broken but you can make a very good case for it being slightly undercosted for what it does.

A good indicator of it's power is that it has pushed a ship that used to be perfectly fine out of the meta almost completely: The B-Wing (and z-95 to a degree). Heck, if you have 24/26 points to fill out a list, how many times will your first thought not be: Let's throw a TLT y or Stressbot in there.

And there's the answer.

TLT is statistically superior, when not accounting for a R1 blindspot and the fact that it replaces the current attack for +6 points. Which it should be. Why would you pay for an upgrade that didn't actually upgrade your attack? If we are putting conditions on such as "at range 2 or 3" we can as easily say "The TLT is statistically inferior to a 1 die primary at range 1". Overall, the TLT is roughly equivalent to a 3 die primary, IMO, when you consider both the advantages and disadvantages inherent to it (no extra green at R3, no shot at all R1 instead of +1 die, better at stripping tokens but capped damage and no crits ever).

As far as the B, I disagree that the TLT has done anything at all to push it out except indirectly by countering large-boost-turrets. The dearth of B-Wings is due to the shift towards high PS ships capable of dodging arcs. In a B-Wing vs. TLT matchup, the B-Wing is still going to come out ahead (Blue+FCS for the same points as Gold+TLT). B-Wings are suffering because the game has shifted away from pure low-PS joust efficiency, the B-Wing's greatest asset. In a TLT-less world (assuming some other upgrade that toned down Boosting Large Turrets to make room for high-PS dodgers) the B-Wing would still not see much play time.

JMO.

I see your opinions are just as unique as your lists . We should just agree to disagree on this one.

K-Wings as minelayers can work without it, Y-Wings have the option of going BTL-A4 with ICTs or cheap with ABTs, which help them create realy dangerous zones. HWKs are in a bad spot without it and only in fringe cases should take the ICT. Blaster Turret for the most part doesn't exist.

TLT is a really good option and always worth it. There is a reason that is has reshaped the meta so drasticaly! There are alternatives, though. The ships that use it are playable in other configurations and can pull their weight that way.

That fringe case being "you're using Dace Bonearm". And, I guess, maybe if you have a list that generates a lot of stress and you want to just completely lock down your opponent.

I do think the Dorsal Turret will be a realistic option for the HWK when the boat finally re-emerges from the year 1945, having been sucked back in time during a strange storm to fight the Japanese. At only 3 points, you can put a named HWK on the board for a very, very low cost. A 22 point Torkil Mux or Roark Garnet that can at least throw two dice in an R2 radius isn't a bad idea.

Short answer: Yes

Longer answer: Definitely

Consistency is far more important than punch.

thing is TLT has both. 2 damage a turn is nothing to sneeze at.

TLT is better than a 3 PWT with gunner. Against gunner you can stop it at 1 damage. Against TLT you are taking 2 if not you are losing a lot of tokens.

They are incredibly good for the points you pay, the double shots are a big thing too.

Look at the comparison between a standard Y-Wing with a TLT at 24 points. That's the same cost as 2 Academy Tie Fighters or Bandit Squadron Z95s, and frankly neither of those have a great chance against those 8 hit points. Even at that 24 point level you'd be relying on the donut hole to survive.

Likewise with the K-Wing, in both cases it's the combination of huge quantities of hit points as a carrier for it.

Rikk

I'm struggling a bit with the logic presented, specifically the single TLT Y-wing compared to 2 Academies or 2 Bandits. Note there was no mention of additional support or additional ships, so I'll be speaking to the straight "points for points" comparison.

I would, without hesitation take two academies over a single TLT Y-wing. The Y-wing is still only dealing at MOST 2 damage which as of right now cannot kill any ship in the game. The ties get to respond, dealing at least the same in return with the opportunity for up to 4 damage. Even if the Y-wing lucks out and lands both hits on one tie, it'll take another round of shooting to finish it off, with the second shot effectively wasted. By this point the ties (with their superior dial and post-maneuver options) are much more capable of making it inside the donut to either block or shoot, upping their damage. That's an uphill fight for the y-wing and is why you rarely see just a single TLT Y-wing on the field - it does it's best work in concert with other ships, meaning it isn't a "better spend" for the points so much as a force multiplier. Change the equation to 4 ties and 2 y-wings and now it becomes a much harder fight.

The same goes for the Z-95, except with it's extra shield point it requires two rounds of perfect shooting to take one off the field. It's not as maneuverable but the added hull really adds up, putting even more burden on the Y-wing to successfully deal damage. The Y-wing can only concentrate on a single ship at a time and can only deal two damage at most. Two damage, while harder to defend against for Aces and other "high agility, low hull" ships, really struggles with strong jousters. Again, add an additional Y-wing and the equation changes but now you're slowly driven into a more specific list archetype.

As Kinetic Operator said, you're spending additional points over a regular attack - i certainly hope it's more effective than a standard 3-dice gun. The key with TLTs is they bring groups of turreted ships into the competitive space that provides unique challenges and opportunities for opponents without completely cutting out certain options. TLTs are definitely worth the points but they're not a "win" button by any stretch of the imagination, which to me seems like a real win from the design perspective.

TLTs are pretty cereal

The tlt isn't the problem. It makes several ships and pilots that were previously below the curve viable (hwks, Horton, Kavil) and is fine on the k-wing.

The problem is 4 tlt y-wings. And this isn't particularly a problem of power. Yes it is a powerful list, and yes it can be beaten. It needs you to be absolutely on top of your game and with a list with the options to deal with it, but it can be beaten.

The real problem is that it's a slog, and a boring one at that. The issue is not power, it's negative play experience. You could beat the list and you've still not enjoyed yourself. Conversely you could be soundly beaten by other lists and it be the most fun game you've ever had.

It does need fixing, for the sake of the game and the enjoyment of the casual player, rather than for any power-balancing for the competitive player. And let me just qualify that. When I say casual player, I don't mean someone who doesn't go to tournaments, I mean the sort of player who goes to tournaments with no particular expectation of winning the event,just wanting a fun day of gaming and meeting new people with a shared interest.

Just saying "just play better" is not an answer that is good for the game. It's an argument that speaks to the competitive player, not the casual player who can have their afternoon spoilt by having to play against quad tlt.

A friend of mine had an idea for how to fix it. Make it cost 5+X, where X is the number of tlts in your squadron. It stops quad tlt in all but naked hwks. It means the fun tlt builds that are interesting to fly with and against can stay but the spam lists would become a thing of the past.

Consistency is far more important than punch.

thing is TLT has both. 2 damage a turn is nothing to sneeze at.

TLT is better than a 3 PWT with gunner. Against gunner you can stop it at 1 damage. Against TLT you are taking 2 if not you are losing a lot of tokens.

TLT isn't a guarenteed two damage, though. Against high-agility ships, especially if you're lacking dice mods, you'll be lucky to pull off one damage.

TLTs are pretty cereal

That's never gonna become a thing give it up.

The tlt isn't the problem. It makes several ships and pilots that were previously below the curve viable (hwks, Horton, Kavil) and is fine on the k-wing.

The problem is 4 tlt y-wings. And this isn't particularly a problem of power. Yes it is a powerful list, and yes it can be beaten. It needs you to be absolutely on top of your game and with a list with the options to deal with it, but it can be beaten.

The real problem is that it's a slog, and a boring one at that. The issue is not power, it's negative play experience. You could beat the list and you've still not enjoyed yourself. Conversely you could be soundly beaten by other lists and it be the most fun game you've ever had.

It does need fixing, for the sake of the game and the enjoyment of the casual player, rather than for any power-balancing for the competitive player. And let me just qualify that. When I say casual player, I don't mean someone who doesn't go to tournaments, I mean the sort of player who goes to tournaments with no particular expectation of winning the event,just wanting a fun day of gaming and meeting new people with a shared interest.

Just saying "just play better" is not an answer that is good for the game. It's an argument that speaks to the competitive player, not the casual player who can have their afternoon spoilt by having to play against quad tlt.

A friend of mine had an idea for how to fix it. Make it cost 5+X, where X is the number of tlts in your squadron. It stops quad tlt in all but naked hwks. It means the fun tlt builds that are interesting to fly with and against can stay but the spam lists would become a thing of the past.

I acknowledge that TLT is a NPE, but without quad TLT 70% of tournament lists would still be fat turrets. That's a far more NPE than the occasional quad TLT guy smearing ice cream on his face. It needs to remain a borderline OP card.

The meta TLT ended was much worse. And despite how much I complain about Acewing, our current meta is pretty decent.

Also, now everyone who thought turrets take skill and don't ruin the game gets to drown in them. Eat it.

I always hate just watching my ships slowly be hit by TLTs

Tonight I had one K Wing with TLT take out 2 TIE Phantoms in the same game.

My list was (3x) B wings, K wing with Tactician and TLT. Defeated 2 Phantoms and 3 TIE fighters. Not top tier lists, but casual, and my KWing took out both of the phantoms at range 3 while they and the fighters were dancing around with the BBBs.

I am just getting back into the game after about 2 1/2 years out - and have grown to hate TLT with a vengeance !!

K-Wings as minelayers can work without it, Y-Wings have the option of going BTL-A4 with ICTs or cheap with ABTs, which help them create realy dangerous zones. HWKs are in a bad spot without it and only in fringe cases should take the ICT. Blaster Turret for the most part doesn't exist.

TLT is a really good option and always worth it. There is a reason that is has reshaped the meta so drasticaly! There are alternatives, though. The ships that use it are playable in other configurations and can pull their weight that way.

That fringe case being "you're using Dace Bonearm". And, I guess, maybe if you have a list that generates a lot of stress and you want to just completely lock down your opponent.

I do think the Dorsal Turret will be a realistic option for the HWK when the boat finally re-emerges from the year 1945, having been sucked back in time during a strange storm to fight the Japanese. At only 3 points, you can put a named HWK on the board for a very, very low cost. A 22 point Torkil Mux or Roark Garnet that can at least throw two dice in an R2 radius isn't a bad idea.

That is exactly what I meant. And I agree, Dorsal Turret is pretty exciting for HWK enthusiasts, although I will really miss the range 3 capabilities. Thats the most frustrating thing about HWKs, that you have a ship that might as well not exist at range 3.

The tlt isn't the problem. It makes several ships and pilots that were previously below the curve viable (hwks, Horton, Kavil) and is fine on the k-wing.

The problem is 4 tlt y-wings. And this isn't particularly a problem of power. Yes it is a powerful list, and yes it can be beaten. It needs you to be absolutely on top of your game and with a list with the options to deal with it, but it can be beaten.

The real problem is that it's a slog, and a boring one at that. The issue is not power, it's negative play experience. You could beat the list and you've still not enjoyed yourself. Conversely you could be soundly beaten by other lists and it be the most fun game you've ever had.

It does need fixing, for the sake of the game and the enjoyment of the casual player, rather than for any power-balancing for the competitive player. And let me just qualify that. When I say casual player, I don't mean someone who doesn't go to tournaments, I mean the sort of player who goes to tournaments with no particular expectation of winning the event,just wanting a fun day of gaming and meeting new people with a shared interest.

Just saying "just play better" is not an answer that is good for the game. It's an argument that speaks to the competitive player, not the casual player who can have their afternoon spoilt by having to play against quad tlt.

A friend of mine had an idea for how to fix it. Make it cost 5+X, where X is the number of tlts in your squadron. It stops quad tlt in all but naked hwks. It means the fun tlt builds that are interesting to fly with and against can stay but the spam lists would become a thing of the past.

That is subjective, though. I have had very tense and fun matches against quad TLT, where it was all about concentrating damage and outmanouvering each other the best way possible. Sure, my opponent had it easier at that, but for me thats not a big deal. My biggest NPE is still Fat Han Sad Horn. That list is just annoying as hell, since if it gains just a little advantage it has pretty much already won.

Consistency is far more important than punch.