Have any of them ever been statted out? Loyalist or traitor? Regular traitor or Daemon Prince version? Just curious.

I haven't done so but I know its been discussed on a numer of occasions. From that it seems that the d100-system is somewhat limited in that one of the few ways to depict entities of this scale is to give them 90s in most characteristics and then a shitload of unnatural characteristics and special traits just for how freaking powerful they are.

They have been statted in the TT, in the Horus Heresy series of books by FW.

I do not have one of their statlines handy right now, but in WS and BS they are comparable to the Officio Assassinorum agents while their physical stats are akin to those of Carnifexes or similar Tyranid constructs. While certainly powerful they were still beings of flesh and blood, as Ferrus Manus and his brother Roboutte found out.

They'd have to be nigh unkillable without weaponry usually reserved for a strike cruiser in orbital combat. Something crazy like To 100 unnatural toughness x3 and a Daemonic quality of 15. Then apply armor of 12 everywhere and you have to deal 58 points of damage to get the first point through. That's AFTER you take down whatever field they'd almost certainly have. And they'd certainly have Regenerate at varying degrees. Mortarion's would likely be highest at like 10. So without sanctified weapons with the felling quality you'd be unable to even hurt them. And they'd likely have their guards with them as well. That's freaking terrifying.

I wouldn't be so quick to throw out numbers like that, Primarchs were not the unstoppable gods those stats of yours would make them out to be. While superhuman in every conceivable way they were not supreme beings and there are creatures in modern 40k that are far and above more frightening in sheer stats than a Primarch.

What made them so utterly unstoppable was the vast amount of knowledge, technology and charisma each brought to the field. They were strategists and warriors without peer, each and every one of them.

For clarity, since you mentioned him, I found here the stats for Mortarion the Reaper, Primarch of the Death Guard. Note these are his mortal stats and his Daemonic form would be different though probably not overly so.

Following other examples of how such statlines were brought over to the FFG line some estimates as to his stats would be:

WS 7 translates to ~70 following the stats for Archons (see Enemies of the Imperium)

BS 5 translates to ~55 following the stats for Space Marine Captains (see Deathwatch NPCs)

S 7 translates to ~70 Strength with Unnat 14 +/- 2 following the stats for Squiggoths (see Enemies of the Imperium)

T 7 translates to ~70 Toughness with Unnat 14 +/- 2 following the stats for Squiggoths (see Enemies of the Imperium)

W 7 translates to ~140 wounds following the stats for Tyranids (see Mark of the Xenos)

Int; Ag; Per; Fel are harder to estimate though from the way other NPCs have been handled would be around the 50 mark each +/- 10 with Fel probably being lower judging from Mortarions character

Ld 10 translates to ~70 WP

His weapons would be equivalent to Deathwatch Relics with slightly boosted stats, a 1d10 more damage here or a 2-4 more Pen there with some unique rules.

Hopefully this has been helpful and may stop you from making a Primarch have more soak than a Reaver Titan.

I don't know about that man. Keep in mind that not only do the primarchs benefit from being heavily blessed by their chosen Chaos patron but they're all over 10,000 years old. In terms of xp, they'd have earned around 100,000. As an equivalency. Over ten millenia to hone their WS & BS, sharpen their Int, Will, and Per, and get literally stronger. Time wouldn't do much for their Agi, Toughness, or Fellowship (arguably) but they'd be near max on all stats surely. Plus all the unique abilities they'd be bound to have. They'd be far more dangerous than the greater Daemons which are statted out. Again I view it differently than you but hopefully this won't spiral into something ugly this time.

Considering that all Daemon Primarchs that have performed invasions of realspace have been thrown back and in duels with "mortal" champions of the Imperium no less, its to be expected that they do not have much more in the way of overall skills than they did when they themselves were flesh and blood. Also note that a Daemon Prince no longer has the same ability to reason as they did when they were a mortal being, concepts like training and "honing your skills" are almost meaningless to such beings.

Take Angron for example, whatever combat skills he may have gained from his Ascension he lost equally in his strategic diversity and rational thought. This is clearly demonstrated during the Battle of the Fang when he is persistently outmaneuvered and baited into ambushes by the Space Wolves and their human allies. Another example would be the Primarch Mortarion again who was defeated in the field by a young Kaldro Draigo (a bad example I know, Draigo lore is not exactly a strong footing for an argument).

Also using a metric like "xp gain" is a dangerous pitfall when dealing with NPCs, especially ones with the nature of Daemon Primarchs. Experience points are a game mechanic for the growth of PCs, they are not a guideline for gauging the strength of a particular character. Those 10,000 years spent in the Warp are also difficult to factor considering the way the Warp operates. For the Primarchs perhaps only centuries, or decades have passed, or in other cases millions of years its all variable within that realm (chaotic you could say, but that would a cheap move).

Considering that all Daemon Primarchs that have performed invasions of realspace have been thrown back and in duels with "mortal" champions of the Imperium no less, its to be expected that they do not have much more in the way of overall skills than they did when they themselves were flesh and blood. Also note that a Daemon Prince no longer has the same ability to reason as they did when they were a mortal being, concepts like training and "honing your skills" are almost meaningless to such beings.

Take Angron for example, whatever combat skills he may have gained from his Ascension he lost equally in his strategic diversity and rational thought. This is clearly demonstrated during the Battle of the Fang when he is persistently outmaneuvered and baited into ambushes by the Space Wolves and their human allies. Another example would be the Primarch Mortarion again who was defeated in the field by a young Kaldro Draigo (a bad example I know, Draigo lore is not exactly a strong footing for an argument).

My problem with this is that GW fluff is frankly bull and highly contradictory at every turn. Power is measured and set only by the writer. So give any Imperial character to some cheesy fanatic (Ward) and he'll make each figure a primarch in their own right when in actuality they should be ripped apart. One of the massive weaknesses of this system is that true power cannot be properly conveyed due to the high bench marks. When the average marine starts with numbers in the 40s and can with time get to the 70s then that's not a massive room for wiggle room to express true potency.

If original fictions were to be believed, each primarch had super human abilities, speed, resilience, reflexes, strength etc. A normal marine fighting one of these should be like taking down a Challenger 2 British Main Battle Tank using a Caernarvon (so I've been on World of Tanks lately...). It's doable if lucky but it's difficult and requires luck. In actuality the primarch would outmanoeuvre and kick seven bells out of you.

You're absolutely right about the use of GW fluff when dealing with power levels, which is why my first attempt was to use pre-existing stats written for them by I more comptetent individuals, here Forgeworld.

And Draigo aside (thank god...) the invasion by Angron and the Battle of the Fang appear with enough consistency in enough iterations thay we can call them close to accurate in their depictions of the Daemon Primarchs, well two of tbem at least.

While your comparison is sadly lost on me (soz not a fan of WoT) I think I get your point there. The Primarchs were and are amazingly strong, fast, and resilient but still very much beatable. As long as the writer is on your side that is.

Time wouldn't do much for their Agi, Toughness, or Fellowship (arguably) but they'd be near max on all stats surely. Plus all the unique abilities they'd be bound to have. They'd be far more dangerous than the greater Daemons which are statted out. Again I view it differently than you but hopefully this won't spiral into something ugly this time.

Then tell me why space marines in Black Crusade aren't having stats like 90?

Because they're a fraction of that age.

No, they're not Valarion. There are in fact several Chaos named characters including Abaddon, Kharn, Lucius, Calas Typhon, and many others that are in fact that age and do not have the stats that you speak of. In fact in Black Crusade you can even play a Veteran of the Long War, aka someone that fought during or turned traitor only shortly after the Heresy itself.

Time wouldn't do much for their Agi, Toughness, or Fellowship (arguably) but they'd be near max on all stats surely. Plus all the unique abilities they'd be bound to have. They'd be far more dangerous than the greater Daemons which are statted out. Again I view it differently than you but hopefully this won't spiral into something ugly this time.

Then tell me why space marines in Black Crusade aren't having stats like 90?

The human (well marine) anatomy is still limited to what it can achieve. A primarch is genetically engineered perfection, as close as one can get without being a sensei child of the Emperor and his own DNA. All marines are then diluted copies of those offspring and therefore a fraction of the capability of their original be they chaos or not. Only through the warp and it's corruption, mutation and empowerment by the gods can a chaos marine possibly improve to those levels.

A loyalist has to either be exceptionally skilled, train for years and even then would struggle to keep up and they still have to maintain a mortal lifespan with few living beyond a millennium. The corrupt ones have not got that issue for not only does time have a different effect in the warp but Chaos also manages to supplement the failing organic and keep it's servants alive. For example the only reason Horus was able to hold up against his father was that all four chaos patrons were blessing and backing him against the Emperor.

Your standard chaos marine though is just someone who has turned to the alternative path and not necessarily someone who has (or potentially ever will) catch the dark gods favour no matter how long they have existed.

I wouldn't be so quick to throw out numbers like that, Primarchs were not the unstoppable gods those stats of yours would make them out to be. While superhuman in every conceivable way they were not supreme beings and there are creatures in modern 40k that are far and above more frightening in sheer stats than a Primarch.

What made them so utterly unstoppable was the vast amount of knowledge, technology and charisma each brought to the field. They were strategists and warriors without peer, each and every one of them.

For clarity, since you mentioned him, I found here the stats for Mortarion the Reaper, Primarch of the Death Guard. Note these are his mortal stats and his Daemonic form would be different though probably not overly so.

Thank you a great deal for this. Personally I wish that I could have all the different stats for Primarchs and Heresy-era characters and stuff, but I fear that buying all the Forge World books for this reason would be a bit costly.