I've seen some of the other takes on Ogryns, most of them originally made with Dark Heresy character creation in mind, and I figured I'd try to put something together that's a tighter fit with the Rogue Trader character creation rules.

To do this, I've added Ogryn as a new choice under the Tainted entry if - and only if - the character hails from a Death World. Additionally, the player must spend 500 xp to select and play an Ogryn character, and the character's starting Fate Points are reduced by 1. An Ogryn is treated as a Mutant with the Brute, Feels No Pain, Hideous Strength, Hulking, Mental Regressive, and Tough Hide mutations. The effects of these mutations can be found on page 369 of the Rogue Trader Core Rulebook.

An Ogryn character may elect to undergo an augmentative chemical process called Biochemical Ogryn Neural Enhancement (BONE) as a Very Rare Acquisition (for Common Craftsmanship). BONE reduces the effects of the Mental Regressive mutation in an Ogryn (but not in other unfortunates with this mutation). When determining the effects of the Mental Regressive mutation on an Ogryn with BONE, treat results of 6-7 as if a result of 1-5 had been rolled and treat a result of 10 as if a result of 8-9 had been rolled. In addition to these effects, a Good Craftsmanship BONE changes any Characteristic reductions from the Mental Regressive mutation from 1d10 to 1d5 and also reduces the Insanity Points caused from this mutation from 1d10 to 1d5.

That's the basics. It's certainly physically powerful, but also somewhat limited. The initial buy-in costs of 500 xp and 1 Fate Point (and quite likely the character's free starting Acquisition too) helps to balance the nice mutation benefits. Remember that Hulking provides a bonus to BS tests made to target the Ogryn as well as a penalty to Concealment, so there's a bit of a negative factor here too.

HappyDaze said:

I'm just nitpicking here. Don't mind me. I have a very pro-Abhuman bias.

Why do Ogryns have to be 'Tainted'?

Not all Ogryns come from Death Worlds, so why Death Worlds only?

Ogryns (and the other abhumans) aren't mutations per se, but stable genetic variants of homo sapiens. While I see why you might want to duplicate the features of Ogryns via the Mutations in the book, you don't make a distinction that they are indeed not mutations. For instance, why would an Ogryn get Insanity Points related to Mutations just for being an Ogryn when Ogryns are a stable genetic variation and not considered "Mutants"?

Just one more nitpick, Ogryns are stupid, yes. But I've never seen them described as getting stupider with age. The BONE treatment is supposed to increase the intelligence of the most intelligent Ogryn up to "almost normal" for an average Imperial Guard. Still not all that bright, but smart enough to follow and give orders and perhaps some rudimentary written language skills for getting around in a Guard unit.

I see what you're trying to do here and I'm not knocking you at all. It's a really good effort. I just personally prefer the "traditional" Abhuman concepts I guess.

Bah, I'll go away now.

I don't mind constructive criticism. Trust me, I'm quite pro-abhuman myself.

Tainted just shows where they fit in on the Origin Path. It's not saying that there's anything wrong with them, it just provides a place for them without requiring a new block.

Death Worlds only is a restriction that helps prevent Ogryns with inappropriate background packages. Void Born and Noble Born really seem inappropriate, and both Forge World and Hive World also provide a few hang-ups (for example, Technical Knock or Tech-Use as untrained Basic). While Imperial World is a feasible alternative, I'd argue that most Ogryns would develop the Death World skills even if they come from another type of world due to their fairly restricted roles within Imperial society.

With the exception of Mental Regressive (see below), the mutations fit quite well. There's really no need within the rules to differentiate between a stable mutation and an unstable/random mutation, and I didn't want to make up rules for new Talents or Traits.

That said, I'm not particularly happy with the way Mental Regressive is working out, and I'm going to suggest replacing it with penalties of -10 Intelligence, -10 Perception, -5 Willpower, and -5 Fellowship. BONE would reduce those penalties to -5 Intelligence, -5 Perception, -3 Willpower, and -3 Fellowship. With or without BONE, Ogryns will not suffer inherent Insanity Points just for being Ogryns.

With point-based character creation, including the modifications of Death World and inherent mutations - but not other Origin Path options - an Ogryn PC has typical starting Characteristics of WS 25, BS 25, S 50, T 40, Ag 25, Int 15/20*, Per 15/20*, Wil 15/18*, Fel 15/18* before adding in their 100 points. They also have a staggering (TB x 2) + 1d5 + 12 Wounds and several mutation-based advantages.

* These are the Characteristic values for Ogryns without BONE/with BONE.

I like it- although I think only a -5 fellowship is a little generous.

alexkilcoyne said:

You're probably right. I think it would be better if I make it a -10 to Intelligence, Perception, and Fellowship (note that Willpower is no longer penalized beyond that from Death World). BONE then provides a +5 to Intelligence, Perception, and Fellowship - effectively halving the penalties. Starting Characterisitics for an Ogryn (including the Death World modifications) are now WS 25, BS 25, S 50, T 40, Ag 25, Int 15, Per 15, WP 20, and Fel 10. If the Ogryn has BONE, these are WS 25, BS 25, S 50, T 50, Ag 25, Int 20, Per 20, WP 20, and Fel 15.

With those changes, I'm really starting to like how it's working out. I may still alter it a bit to the part about the 500 xp cost to play an Ogryn, but I'm concerned it might be too strong without this cost.

After sleeping on it, I think that I'll remove the 500 xp charge on playing an Ogryn, but I'll instead apply it as the cost of the BONE treatment. With this alteration, the BONE treatment will only be available in this manner (it cannot be taken as an Acquisition) and it can only be taken at character creation. I'll offer the explanation that the BONE treatment can only be successfully performed on prepubescent Ogryns, so you ether start with it at the cost of 500 xp or you never benefit from it. It's not 100% accurate to WH40K canon, but it's workable for this ruleset.

I noted an error in my previous post on the starting Characterisitics for Ogryns. These are the correct numbers: WS 25, BS 25, S 50, T 40, Ag 25, Int 15/20, Per 15/20, WP 20, Fel 10/15. As before, the second values given for Int, Per, and Fel are for an Ogryn with the BONE treatment.

HappyDaze said:

Hmm? A single mutation costs 200 xp if you choose it; this package grants six mutations. Granted, one of them is purely negative, but that's still 1000 xp worth of mutations there. 500 xp is fine, in my opinion. If anything, it's undercosted.

If you look closely, you'll see that I'm not using the exact set -up from the first post. I'm also considering abandoning canon and ditching the BONE concept. If I do so, then the typical Ogryn will be almost as capable as what we see with BONE (very low Int and Fel, but able to use Int-based and Fel-based skills normally). I'll be throwing Ogryn and others (like ratlings) into a newly made Abhuman slot rather than in the Tainted category, and I'll open them up to taking Home Worlds other than Death World.

OK, another session of sleep, and a slightly new take on my old idea. I'm leaning back to my initial thoughts of sticking to a package of positive and negative mutations along with a few added costs for representing Ogryns in RT.

Ogryn counts as the character's Lure of the Void selection. Taking this selection comes at a cost of 500 xp and it reduces the character's starting number of Fate Points by -1. Apply the Brute, Feels No Pain, Grotesque, Hideous Strength, Hulking, Mental Regressive, and Tough Hide mutations to the Ogryn character.

Grotesque is primarily to account for the appearance and mannerisms of Ogryns as viewed by most of Imperial society. It gives them appropriate social penalties among 'normals' and an equally appropriate bonus to Intimidate.

Mental Regressive covers the typical Ogryn's mental limits and even accounts for BONE (if you roll really well and have few losses from this mutation, you have benefitted from BONE). When determining the results of Mental Regressive, results of 6-7 and 10 should be applied to the initial Characteristics before making any other adjustments for Origin Path, Equipment, and/or Advances. Also note that the 1d10 Insanity Points suffered from Mental Regressive are just an inherent part of the Ogryn psyche.

I'm still inclined to Mental Regressive and replace it with -20 Int and -10 Fel. This eliminates some of the randomness of Mental Regressive (I'm not too much of a fan of large degrees of randomness during character creation). BONE can be taken - either at character creation or during play - as a Rare Acquisition that will reduce the above penalties to -10 Int and -5 Fel. The Fellowship value may seem high, but remember to account for the effects of Grotesque on most Fellowship Tests.

I'm almost to my destination at this point, but the fine-tuning is where things are getting tricky. Feedback is appreciated.

You must spend 500 xp to play an Ogryn. You gain the Brute, Feels No Pain, Hideous Strength, Hulking, and Tough Hide mutations. As a recipient of BONE treatment (Ogryns without BONE treatment are unsuitable for use as player characters), you suffer -10 Int, -10 Fel, and -1 Fate Point.

This places Ogryn outside the Origin Path and allows for a variety of Home World, Birthright, Lure of the Void, and other selections. It is thus possbile to play an Ogryn with Imperial World/Child of the Creed/Zealot or an Ogryn with Hive World/Stubjack/Criminal (just for a few examples). As usual, the GM and player should work together to ensure that all selections are reasonable.

You must spend 500 xp to play an Ogryn that has undergone BONE treatment (an Ogryn that has not undergone BONE treatment is unsuitable for use as a Player Character). You gain all of the following mutations: Brute, Feels No Pain, Hideous Strength, Hulking, and Tough Hide. You suffer -5 Ballistic Skill, -5 Agility, -10 Intelligence, -10 Fellowship, and -1 Fate Point.

The above is the final version of my house rules for playing Ogryns. I'd like to thank everyone here that provided input. While these rules may not appeal to everyone, I'd love to hear how they work out for anyone that wishes to give them a try.

Glad you included the -1 fate point it felt a little too powerful. I'm really liking this and I will playtest it for you as one of my players is interested- can you make one final post with everything up to date (starting stats, penalties and bonuses, etc.) for my clarity please? I'll let you know how it goes

And what are the restrictions on the origin path? Does an Ogryn still have to take Lure of the Void and gets no bonus from it?

Reply # 12 was the final version.

You can choose to play an Ogryn by spending the 500 xp before you ever step onto the Origin Path. Once you've done so, you'll follow the Origin Path however you desire (and your GM allows). This technically allows for some weird combos - like a Noble Born Ogryn - but the player and GM are encouraged to work together to create a fitting Origin Path for the Ogryn character.

Including the mutations - but not the effects of Origin Path selections (including Home World) - an Ogryn begins with WS 25, BS 20, S 45, T 35, Ag 20, Int 15, Per 25, WP 25, Fel 15 before rolling the dice (or adding the 100 points if you prefer).

Rather than mutations, I'm probably just going to use the Traits that grant the same abilities and cut out the intermediate step. Ogryn will have Natural Armour 2, Size (Hulking), and Unnatural Strength (x2) along with the Iron Jaw Talent. Characteristic modifiers will remain -5 Ballistic Skill, +20 Strength, +10 Toughness, -5 Agility, -10 Intelligence, and -10 Fellowship. The +10 Wounds and -1 Fate Point will remain the same too.

I'm also reexamining the possibility of using Unnatural Toughness (x2) in place of the the Natural Armour and added Wounds. With a TB of 5, this amounts to +10 Wounds using the RT system for starting wounds. However, very I'm reluctant to do this because I feel that UT is too good - it resists damage much better than a few points of natural armour. Beyond that, I don't like the flavour of this change - Orks are 'tougher' than Ogryn by virtue of their alien metabolism while the Ogryn is still a (very large) human. An Ork with a limb shot off can just get something bolted into place while an Ogryn would probably bleed out and would certainly have trouble recovering from a crude implantation in any event.

I'm going to work on some Origin Path options specifically for Ogryn, and then I'll delve into my first foray at building a Career Path since even the Archmilitant doesn't really fit the Ogryn too well in it's standard form (although a few alternate ranks might do it).

Just a quick tidea you might want to lower the Ogryn's BS skill a bit -5 to -10 they are supossed to be pretty bad shots. Also I would have to reread some of the mutations in the book but I don't remember Ogryn's having a tough hide they had more wounds in 40K so maybe the unatural toughness trait and hideous str. Otherwise you might end up with a super shooty and assalty ogryn.

I have to ask this question because it has yet to come up in any of this. Why would any player want to be an Ogryn? RT itself is a game of dashing rogues and commanding armies and fleets of warships. Where does an Ogryn fall in any of this? Ogryns are pretty much indoctrinated children for the Emperor. Even with the BONE treatment they don't have the capabilities to do much more than follow more complex orders. They wouldn't be anywhere near the top of the echelons to become the Right Hand anything of a Rogue Trader and his crew because they can't tell their own left from right. Ignoring the stigma with all abhumans and the major hit to the credibility of any Rogue Trader who has one on his command staff, playing an Ogryn consigns you to hitting things and shouting at people. Rogue Trader is pretty much more than that from what I've seen. Making stats for Ogryn to use as soldiers makes sense because they are effective if childish soldiers, but where do you go as a character with something like that?

P.S. Ogryn are Claustrophobic, so I doubt many of them would do well endless being shunted around in a ship because while the ships are big, their corridors and rooms are not.

In WH40K, Ogryn are really no worse at shooting than any other Guardsman (both have BS 3). They simply excel at close quarters (WS 4), and thus have an preference for it over shooting.

Dyckman86 said:

Options are not a bad thing even if they don't appeal to some (or many) players. Some people don't want to play the suggested roles of RT - not everyone wants a leadership position. Someone might even just want to play the RT's personal 'brute squad of one' and there's nothing wrong with that.

They have a game for that already, it's called Diablo 2, but to each their own I suppose.

I have to echo what Dyckman86 is saying. While it's certainly true that different parts of RT appeal to different people, Ogyrn feels extremely out of place to me.

From a purely game design perspective, what's an ogryn to do during ship to ship combat? The obvious answer is that their claustrophobia would be in full effect at that point, but that's not really a satisfying answer to me.

Additionally, I feel that rogue trader is a game where a very deliberate decision was made to make each player the boss of something; it's a game of captains and commanders, not sergeants and fighter jocks. The problem with tailoring a character to be a one man brute squad is that the game is about more than that. On the simplest level, your one man brute squad isn't as impressive when the opposition sends a 100 person brute company, but beyond that, when all you do is hit stuff, how do you contribute to discussions of fairly lofty subjects like, 'hey, what are we gonna do next?'

Because there's no real dancing around the facts that ogryns have never tried to hide the fact that they're sorta dim, because deception isn't a conception they have a real good grip on.

So there's nothing wrong with wanting to play a purely combat character, but I might suggest that this isn't a the game best suited to it.

From a purely game design perspective, what's an ogryn to do during ship to ship combat?

Conduct or repel boarding actions. A close assault focused Career might even offer bonuses for such.

Additionally, I feel that rogue trader is a game where a very deliberate decision was made to make each player the boss of something; it's a game of captains and commanders, not sergeants and fighter jocks. The problem with tailoring a character to be a one man brute squad is that the game is about more than that. On the simplest level, your one man brute squad isn't as impressive when the opposition sends a 100 person brute company, but beyond that, when all you do is hit stuff, how do you contribute to discussions of fairly lofty subjects like, 'hey, what are we gonna do next?'

OK, so have your Ogryn lead the brute squads. In this way, he acts as a companion to the Archmilitant. Han Solo had Chewbacca...

Because there's no real dancing around the facts that ogryns have never tried to hide the fact that they're sorta dim, because deception isn't a conception they have a real good grip on.

A weakness isn't a problem, and it's really up to GMs and the Ogryns' players how dim they are, much as some people prefer Rt to follow closer to the original release where RTs had Space Marines on the payroll. It's not for every game, but it's another option that some might enjoy.

So there's nothing wrong with wanting to play a purely combat character, but I might suggest that this isn't a the game best suited to it.

As long as the players (including the GM) are having fun, it doesn't matter if the game is a perfect match. I've seen characters poorly suited to combat in a D&D 3.5 game and the players still had a blast with it. Besides that. the Ogryn doesn't have to be purely combat - comic relief could be an intentional role, and some players and groups actually enjoy such things*. Beyond that, you could have an Ogryn Missionary - a particularly devout yet dim zealot spreading the love of the God-Emperor to the stars!

* I have one player that wants to play a Ratling that's the personal chef of the RT ("I'm just a cook") and was a former 'badass sniper' (go ahead and laugh) in the IG. Yes, he's going to name him K. C. Ri'bac.

Your first mistake is attempting to compare Ogryns with Wookies, the Wookies as a race aren't the mentally handicapped mutations of human society. They are a fully separate, fully sentient race. No sensible or even slightly unhinged human is going to follow an Ogryn, either because the knowledge that Ogryns are dumb as bricks or because of the societal stigma of mutants means know human will be knowingly commanded by one. Can't really have them conduct boarding actions either, either because Ogryns don't even know what the word conduct means and that requires Command which is Fellowship, a skill no Ogryn will have or because of the boarding ship being tiny and him freaking out on the way from one ship to the other. Ogryns as a race are claustrophobic and no tech priest is going to rebuild ships to fit an Ogryn. I guess if you want to tear out the basic fluff of the world all of what you're saying would work, but then you don't have Ogryns you have superhumans or maybe Space Marine Lite, and that's really not PC material in any balanced sense. Also Ogryn are mentally children, there isn't much debate about that, they never get too terribly smart, BONE helps them, but it doesn't make them suddenly coherent and competent individuals. So yes, anyone can play anything if the DM says okay, but I just fail to see how you could possibly rationalize an Ogryn without majorly gutting some core Universe fluff.