I've always had issues with the deadliness of combat in the system. Just recently I figured I might remove TB soak for firearms, but keep it for melee. Easier to shoot flesh than chop it up right?

Unfortunately I have no idea how to do that maths for that, or what solutions others might have come up with,

I've got a few changes that helped a lot:

-When a character reaches 0 wounds, he's dead.

-Everyone makes Righteousfury (regular NPC too)

-Every wounds a character suffer over his TB is critical damage (that adds up with rigtehous fury).

-All non important NPC (cultists, zergling beast, etc.) dies when suffering critical damage (so when suffering righteous fury, generally).

So example:

A TB3 guardsman in flak armour get shot.

He suffers 11 damage, which makes him lose 4 wounds.

He suffer 1 critical damage.

If he's a mook (not a PC character) or an important characther, he's dead.

That accelerate a lot combat.

The first problem with making combat more deadly is that it makes combat easier for the player characters. Everyone is making fewer, stronger attacks. Combat will consist of fewer failed dodges and parries. Which means that rerolling them has a much greater effect on the outcome of the combat. PCs get more rerolls because of fate points.

The second problem is that melee becomes less effective because the quicker things die, the less time melee characters have to close to melee range.

If that is what you want, go ahead.

I do a couple of things to speed up and add lethality to combat:

Remove TB damage soak. (Unnatural toughness still applies) from both missile AND melee

"Troop" level NPC's are treated similar to Comrades in OW: 1st hit "Wounded" (Can't run) 2nd hit "Disabled/dead" Instagib if damage taken = 2xTB

Use "Formation rules" from OW: enemies of the imperium modified as above for groups of 5 or more troops.

"Elite" lvl NPC's have wounds normally but any "Critical damage/hit" leaves them Dead/Disabled

"Master level" NPC's fight normally.

Could always tie the amount of TB soak to the amount of armor protection when getting hit... like the TB soak value can only be equal or lower than the armor protection value.

Not wearing armor basically means having no TB soak. Wearing just Heavy Leathers or Imperial Robes (giving both 1 armor value) means that the TB soak will also only be 1, so combined this would only reduce damage by 2.

But why would Toughness and body armor compliment each other right?

I think this makes sense if you consider that in reallife, getting hit by a bullet while wearing kevlar isn't the most pleasant experience. The impact energy/force of the bullet still has to go somewhere...

http://www.ehow.com/info_8505018_effects-shot-bullet-proof-vest.html

And ofcourse, if a weapon has AP, effectively lowering the armor protection, it will also impact the max amount of TB soak.

I decided to try out removing TB soak entirely unless they have Unnatural Toughness. Which gives them soak equal to the amount on the unnatural characteristic. Toughness will now give bonus temporary, at least until bonus lowered, wounds, Unnatural will do this as well, up to a maximum of 25.

I allow Toughness soak at all times, but I also rule that Penetration ignores normal Toughness bonus soak (so Felling still only works on Unnatural Toughness, but is the only thing that does). Those high-Penetration weapons, hot shot rounds, etc. all get a boost from it.

I decided to try out removing TB soak entirely unless they have Unnatural Toughness. Which gives them soak equal to the amount on the unnatural characteristic. Toughness will now give bonus temporary, at least until bonus lowered, wounds, Unnatural will do this as well, up to a maximum of 25.

I kind of liked the way they did Wounds in OW . Initial wounds were determined by doubling toughness bonus and adding a bonus from homeworld. I don't know why they didn't do that in DH2 but I wish they had kept it.

It was also pointed out to me that I allow ALL NPC's to generate righteous fury! (I've never really understood why they wouldn't in any game! Even the toughest Space Marine should fear the "Golden BB!")

It was also pointed out to me that I allow ALL NPC's to generate righteous fury! (I've never really understood why they wouldn't in any game! Even the toughest Space Marine should fear the "Golden BB!")

Strange coincidence really. My players did the same thing to me. That's why I thought that doubling the chance for righteous fury it's a good idea to speed up the encounters. And actually it was

Though I would never allow to remove damage soak by toughness bonus because this would be unfair for characters relying on toughness bonus instead of armor rating.

At higher level combats, perhaps you could allow weapon penetration to apply vs toughness? Never got why it didn't do that myself-- why, essentially, being tough was actually a better defense than wearing armor.

Of course doing away with TB reducing damage entirely is probably not a bad idea either, if you're trying to make combat more lethal.

My methods have thus far had very positive results. My players rely more on tactics than gear or stats. (On account of the fact that getting shot generally hurts a lot!) and my battles are faster. Win-win really! My players are more vulnerable but they put down bad guys faster too! And in general, my players never look at any weapon as "Too weak to matter." An Autogun has a very slight chance of bringing down even a Space marine! It's not likely but it's at least possible!

At higher level combats, perhaps you could allow weapon penetration to apply vs toughness? Never got why it didn't do that myself-- why, essentially, being tough was actually a better defense than wearing armor.

Of course doing away with TB reducing damage entirely is probably not a bad idea either, if you're trying to make combat more lethal.

It is. Ask orks.

I don't think it's appropriate either to get out TB reduction. The only reason why is that too much in the system has been based on it.

Look indeed at the orks, that in the game were made tough because of their natural toughness. And in the game, they get 1 unnatural toughness. They won't survive much with this.

On the other hand, I could live with AP reducing toughness, but with what I suggested at the beginning, I never had problem having very straight forward battles.

Maybe the Orks just need more unnatural toughness then?

Ok, but why not other characters as well? Why not Player Characters? Your player wants to play tough barbarian from the feral world. Are you going to tell him he's gonna be as tough as sickly voidborn administrator?

And if you're gonna provide aditional house rules to satisfy said barbarian PC you'll end up with a game much more complicated than the one you started with.

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Speaking of making combat more deadly. There is one thing you and your players might do - get better at fighting. Not by gaining exp. and new gear, but by inventing new tactics.

Orks already have unnatural toughness so I was thinking that it would be more of a racial thing then.

I removed a part of my post because it wasn't as applicable as I thought it to be.

I agree with you that simply removing TB soak isn't the best thing to do.

Yes, but they have +1...which is denied a lot by a simple lasgun. On the tabletop, where even there I find the stats not realistic, orks are still way tougher than on the RPG.

TB soak is part of the game balance (if we can say there is), just kicking it out doesn't seems right to me. But there can be adjustments to keep the mechanic in place but making it better.

Long time ago in DH1 we removed the WOUNDS from the equation, so all damage actually recieved went into critical hits. It was dangerous but quite fun and yeah, rather brutal. You should give it a try. Could be even better with some fan-made/edited Critical Charts.

So DH 2nd essentially carried over all the clunk of 1st?

So DH 2nd essentially carried over all the clunk of 1st?

No, it's smoother in the other systems, even other parts of the combat are easier to handle. Non of the 40K games have gotten rid of skin armor.

Long time ago in DH1 we removed the WOUNDS from the equation, so all damage actually recieved went into critical hits. It was dangerous but quite fun and yeah, rather brutal. You should give it a try. Could be even better with some fan-made/edited Critical Charts.

I would like to try that.

I always asked myself. Could be very nice.

But how did you handle true grit?

Uhm, Where did you guys get the idea that Orcs have only unnatural toughness (1)? I can't find any Stats for Orcs in DH2 but in OW It's Unnat. (2) and goes up as the Orc grows. When they get big enough, Orc Nobs can almost go toe to toe with a Space Marine!

And while your looking at that you have to figure in all their talents that reduce or mitigate damage! It's hardly easy to "put down" an Orc even w/o TB skin armor.

Uhm, Where did you guys get the idea that Orcs have only unnatural toughness (1)? I can't find any Stats for Orcs in DH2 but in OW It's Unnat. (2) and goes up as the Orc grows. When they get big enough, Orc Nobs can almost go toe to toe with a Space Marine!

And while your looking at that you have to figure in all their talents that reduce or mitigate damage! It's hardly easy to "put down" an Orc even w/o TB skin armor.

Doesn't OW use unnatural characteristics as a multiplier to the toughness bonus instead of the flat addition that DH2 does ?

Which means that just stating the unnatural toughness gives us nothing to compare with unless we know the base toughness.

DH1 creatures anathema has stats for Orks. I'll list them:

- They all have Unnatural Toughness x2.

- Ork Boy: 44 toughness. So a total TB of 8

- Ork Nob: 47 toughness, TB 8

- Gretchen 19 toughness. TB 2 (looks like someone rolled for the stats in this book)

- Attack Squig 22 toughness, TB4

Long time ago in DH1 we removed the WOUNDS from the equation, so all damage actually recieved went into critical hits. It was dangerous but quite fun and yeah, rather brutal. You should give it a try. Could be even better with some fan-made/edited Critical Charts.

I would like to try that.

I always asked myself. Could be very nice.

But how did you handle true grit?

I cannot say I remember, it was a few years ago, but as I look into DH1 Core I guess we let it as written. I just remember that Sound Constitution was abolished.

It was real fun and also a step towards "realism". I dont have problem with "skin armour" TB, as we always narrated it as fleshwounds. The Wounds themselves were worse, as you see, you are hit ... but nothing actually happens so it is rather tedious. Retrospectively I wonder how we solved big monsters with far too many Wounds and usage of Medicae, guess I´ll contact my old GM.