Several friends and I have gotten completely hooked on the multiplayer game, and played our first round with roles today. Wow. Anyway a few questions arose:

1) Winning: It looks like victory is immediate upon gaining 15 power; is this during the framework action window itself? Or does the phase, with its follow on user actions still complete? We had a situation where one player got to 15 but an event card after the resolution would have brought him back down.

2) What happens when you play an event that lets you make someone reveal a new plot card? Does the owner of the plot card select? Also, are any conditions or effects on the old plot cards suspended? What happens if the new plot card has a 'when revealed' effect?

Thanks

1- When someone put the 15th token, he "immediately" wins the game.

2- When you reveal a new plot card (you are allowed to do so by card effects that specify which player has to do it), the "previous" plot moves in the used pile (rembember that, phisically the Used Pile is the pile UNDER the revealed plot card...It's a "conceptual" place). A "reveal a new plot card" effect will always occur AFTER all the previous When Revealed effects...So, I.E., an effect like this will be useful when you need a When revealed like Wildfire Assault and then you'd like to have, let's say, more Gold/Claim.

Couple of hints:

The reason why I said that you'll NEVER be able to reveal a new plot card BEFORE the when revealed effect is related to timing: "when revealed" passive effects resolve first, followed by passives "in play"...After that, players can respond to When revealed effects and/or to the "reveal" itself...

After all of this, players get again the chance to play action and THAT's the exact moment involved in your question.

Anyway, you're able to play a REVEAL A NEW PLOT effect BEFORE the "revealing action framework", cause BEFORE choosin'/revealing plots, players can take actions (as showed in the flowchart).

Hope this make sense.

BrooklynMike said:

Assuming you are talking about the event "Lords of the Narrow Sea," yes, your opponent chooses which plot they reveal. If the new plot has a "when revealed" effect, that effect activates when the plot is revealed.

As for whether or not the "old plot" is suspended is going to depend on the plot itself. As BD says, any reference to gold, initiative or claim is going to look at the new plot. If the old plot had a constant effect (like, say, Power of Blood), the effect ends when that plot is no longer the active, revealed plot - like any other card with a constant effect. But if the plot had a duration effect that lasts until the end of the round (like Mutual Cause), the effect continues through to its original duration - like an event card that creates a lasting effect and is then placed in the discard pile.

BrooklynMike said:

Maybe the question here was:

What happens first, "when revealed" effect or claiming power from Lords of the Narrow Sea (in case of lower income)? I think the latter.

You win the game once the action/step that puts the 15th power onto a valid card you control resolves. Technically if there was a card that said Cancel an opponent's victory when they claim 15 or more power, it would prevent the person from winning, but a respone without the words cancel must wait until the resolution of the effect before being able to take an action in the next player window, in the same way that saves and cancels can prevent a character from dying, but an effect that would remove the terminal effect that was a standard response would be too late.

dormouse said:

Not to be confused with the end (Step 6) of the action window that gives you your final power.

dormouse said:

This does confuse the difference between an action step and an action window. A non-save/cancel Response would take place in a different step of the same action window. The point that there is no way to do anything between the resolution of the effect granting the final power and actually winning the game still stands, though.

Thanks for the further explanation. I wasn't quite happy about how I explained it. Your addition covers the part I wasn't sure how to differentiate.

I'm not sure if dormouse responded to my post or above one, but I tried to say something like this:

a) I play "Lords of the Narrow Sea"

b) I kneel noble character to force an opponent to reveal a new plot card

c) opponent reveals plot card with lower income than mine, and with "when revealed" effect

now what is first? d) or e) ?

d) I claim 1 power for my House

e) "when revealed" effect of the plot is resolved

Rogue30 said:

Timing issue here:

a) and b) are the exact same thing. Paying the cost (kneeling the Noble) and playing the event are part of initiating the same effect. They cannot be separated.

As for the actual question, d) happens first. Remember that the "when revealed" text of a plot card is a passive effect activated by revealing the plot. You have to complete the entire resolution of the original effect before you move on and deal with passives. So the original effect does 2 things here:

1. Force opponent to reveal a new plot card

2. Claim power if the initiative condition is met

Any passive effect activated by revealing the plot for part one of the effect (this includes things like the "when revealed" effect, Golden Tooth Mines if the other player happens to have one, etc.) must wait until all other parts of the effect are complete. So the "when revealed" effect of the plot must wait until the entire effect of "Lords" has resolved before activating. Thus, the power is claimed first.

ktom said:

Yeah, that was not my intention - this was more like "moves" in my mind

ktom said:

That's what I thought. And probably this was the original question .

Rogue30 said:

Hmm. Gotta say, I did not get the sense that BrooklynMike was asking when the power was claimed relative to the 'when revealed' resolution. Other people have asked in the past whether or not "when revealed" plot effects only worked when the plot was revealed at the 'normal' time. Maybe I was thinking about that.