What to do when the Rogue Trader gets "Less into Exploration"

By Leogun_91, in Rogue Trader Gamemasters

We have had a few sessions and the Rogue Trader has aquired a colony on Grace (named New Grace) and a mining colony on a nearby world (they named the planet Argentina and mine silver there). However after this the Rogue Trader became more concerned with taking care of New Grace than to explore (even going so far as taking a trip to Calexis to find a forgeworld that could allow him to build weapons when I told him that the trip would take at least 2 years). The Astropath and Arch-Militant are still intrested in exploration though so the intrests are split. The RT still goes on some adventures but even when he does it is done with "New Grace" in mind. He has also married a wife on the planet, a noble lady of course. So how do I get the RT back into exploration rather than colony management?

Remind him those colonies aren't "his", he helped found him yes, but they are Imperium territories and eventually will have Imperium Governors. It is the Imperium's job to run and defend them, not his. This also means most of the profit is the Imperiums, though the Rogue Trader might still have business (and personal) interests planetside.

But this might be considered "GM dickery" so instead/in addition to that, let him spend a year or two shoring up his colonies defenses and stability before setting off again into the ether. RT is a game of scale, that includes time as well as scope. Just have him make some acquisition rolls to get the stuff he wants and go over things for the next year or two at a rapid pace, taking care of all the details "off-screen". 15 minutes (real time) later, bam, its 2 years later, the colony is well prepared to take care of itself while the RT and his crew once again go off to adventure. 2 years is nothing to a RT given the scope of his endeavors and the fact rejuv treatments are easily within his reach, not just for him but certainly for his most trusted crew and advisers (the other PCs). They're gonna live to be 300-400 years old, Emperor willing, what's 2 years?

There are multiple options:

1) If the RTs ship has the "Finances in Arrear"-history, the sponsor of the RT might come up with a few missions for him, taking him well beyond his new pet colony.

2) Pirates might attack the colony - repeatedly. To fend them off completely, their base needs to be located and destroyed.

3) Present the RT with a treasure map - might stir some lust for adventure in him.

4) Every colony needs something - be it weapons, protection from the Guard, or specialised Tech Adepts. Those things usually come at a price - have their provider send the RT on missions, taking him far away from his pocket empire.

5) A plague ravages the colony - the RT needs to find a cure, leading him to many unexplored parts of the Koronus expanse, hunting for the one Adeptus Mechanicus explorer who described the illness in detail in one of his reports.

Alternatively - and I hate those options, but feel they need to be presented, too:

6) Have the pirates kidnap the RTs wife... nothing screams "adventure" like a damsel in distress

7) have a Chaos warlord, fellow RT or Ork warboss pillage and plunder/destroy the colony.

Be careful with the last two options, though - might ruin your players moords quite thoroughly, especially the RT's. If I might hazard a guess, he isn't leaving his colony because he fears the cruel universe - i.e. you - might take it away from him "off-screen". So doing exactly that might not be a good idea, but that depends on your group.

I'd personally go for #2 combined with #4 - present the pirates as a threat, and make sure that the RT needs troops badly to protect the planet. Then, have the Imperial Guard offer him those troops, but for a price. After the RT earned the troops, he might also be more eager to leave his colony - knowing that the mighty Imperial Guard is there to protect it might give him a sense of security.

In fact, strengthening the defensive capabilities of a colony are an excellent motivator to go exploring - after all, a good offensive beats a good defensive - have the RT locate and exterminate every pirate hideout, Ork rokk, and renegade facility in a few lightyears radius. Have him plunder/organise planetary macrolasers for the defense of his colony, whatever - just make sure he understands that for the safety of his colony, it is best that he goes exploring ;-)

And then, as soon as he thinks his colony is invincible - have #5 strike. Then, Eldar pirates ravaging trade vessels, starving the population. A chaos cult springing up, whatever suits your (evil) mood ;-). Just crush his hopes and dreams, and show him that in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war, and the laughter of dark gods.

Cheers and good luck

-Bone

I agree with Bonesaw.

Your 'situation' is really an opportunity in disguise. Your player has handed you perfect plot generator. Basically, he is setting small colony in the middle of the hostile territory. Make him work for it. Throw obstacles in his path. Pirates, xenos, unstable warp routes...anything can happen (and it does). Make his bride-to-be a Genestealer hybrid!

Well, maybe not the last one...

The system is actually built to handle this. Use misfortunes as he withdraws to his colony to start draining his Profit factor. Start of with a nuisance one after 6 months then a grim after a year and a Calamitous one worth 4 profit factor after 2 years. This basically represents his buisness contacts cutting lose when they hear he is less interested with them and less likely to keep up with arangements. Work up to 81-85 on the table and have him have to rush back to the Calixis sector to be met by grinding bureaucracy where the only way to stop the process is to do a deal with a corrupt adept looking for something in the expanse. Make sure the players know this is part of the game system so that they dont feel it is you picking on them for focusing on the Colony.

The next thing to do would be to hit the colony with hardship after hardship. Orks, human renegades, rival rogue traders and food shortages will cause the Colony to start failing unless action is taken to strengthen it. If the Rogue Trader has been reclusive then they will find that their reputation has taken a hit and will suffer negatives to thier aquisition rolls as people see him as more interested in a backwater colony than sticking by his buisness deals. Make it necissary to do something grand and epic to win back confidence in his abilities.

If the players complain remind them of where they have decided to set up thier colony and that they are in the Expanse, a lawless area outside of Imperial space where dangers are everywhere.

To be honest though you now have a goldmine of story oppertunities, you have something that the players care about and you should use this to motivate them to great feats. A colony in the expanse will start to be a drain on resources to keep it alive so have them go out and find riches and wealth to keep the people happy and alive.

Kaihlik

Perhaps warp storms are becoming more and more turbulent around Grace and it's up to the RT to secure enough material to make the colony self sufficient in the event it's isolated. This would give your player with the attachment to the planet a "last hurrah" of sorts before you close it off completly to warp travel to encourage more exploration.

For future plot points you could have the storms suddenly clear after many years revelaing who knows what. To embellish the "grim dark" of 40k, the RT could hail the colony only to get no response over the vox neccesitaing an away team. Is the colony in the same shape as before? Did it flourish?Did it degenerate into anarchy? Is the population horribly mutated? Did a rogue psyker pop up or did the colonists uncover a portal to a broken section of webway and cause a full blown warp incursion covering the planet in daemons? Is it all a plot from Tzeentch to trap the players on the surface before the warp swallows the planet whole? You could use a variety of techniques from horror to creed/diplomacy to full scale war.

Thanks for all the replies. They really help.

Exoviper said:

Perhaps warp storms are becoming more and more turbulent around Grace and it's up to the RT to secure enough material to make the colony self sufficient in the event it's isolated.

Knowing how the last attempt to colonise went they have made the colony self sufficient, it grows plants for food, it provides energy and it even produces flamers, the silvermining on Argentina isn't self sufficient but the colony is.

It would take years to make a colony truely self sufficient especially one of any significant size. If it was as easy as just deciding to do it then it would have been settled long ago. Crops can fail and setting up an agricultural infrastucture takes time during which food will need to be imported to make up the short fall. Power generators are leased from the Adeptus Mechanicus and can be removed if they feel that they are in danger. Flamer production also relies on equiptment leased from the mechanicum and is under the same pressures. Flamer production also requres an inflow of parts and materials which can be cut off if things are too dangerous.

Don't give your players an easy time of it, one of the problems is always that a Colony that relies on technology will always rely on the good graces of the Adeptus Mechanicum to provide it. Since the Mechanicum holds a monopoly over technology and are highly protective of it then falling out with them or failing to provide adeqate assurance that thier assets are safe will result in a removal of said technology and reside a colony to die.

Kaihlik

Kaihlik said:

It would take years to make a colony truely self sufficient especially one of any significant size. If it was as easy as just deciding to do it then it would have been settled long ago. Crops can fail and setting up an agricultural infrastucture takes time during which food will need to be imported to make up the short fall. Power generators are leased from the Adeptus Mechanicus and can be removed if they feel that they are in danger. Flamer production also relies on equiptment leased from the mechanicum and is under the same pressures. Flamer production also requres an inflow of parts and materials which can be cut off if things are too dangerous.

Ok, you hadn't given the impression that it had been that long. Anyway the rest of the points are valad as the Adeptus Mechanicum still needs to be sure that providing the equiptment is worth it and continues to be worth it.

You should make this planet the focus of thier expanding holdings in the expanse, make things difficult for them after the honeymoon period (literally in this case) but make sure that it pays off for them in the end. You just have to start the ball rolling with some Misfortunes and try and get them to turn them into opertunities.

Kaihlik

Well, another way would be to spark the Rogue Traders ambition.

After all, there's nothing more devastating to the ego of a RT if his competition (i.e. rival house/dynasty) has already colonised its third system, or returned with a hold full of Xenos artefacts. Few RTs could stand this eroding of their position.

Never forget a RT lives and dies by his reputation. Quietly managing their planet is NOT what their job is, and not what people expect them to do. After all, that's what you got governors for! Make them feel it - the loathing of their competition, the declining respect of the Imperial Navy, the unrest of their crews - after all, they enlisted onto a Rogue Traders ship - to see new worlds, meet new species, and then conquer them! If you read the fluff, you'll see that most starship crew hold "dirtsiders" in contempt - rightly so. What effect on morale would a RT have that prefers to spend his time in orbit around some world no one actually cares about?

And: For heaven's sake, don't let their colony become 100% self-sustaining. That's the worst GM-mistake ever - and there is little to no such example in fluff. Every planet needs something - be it tech from a Forge World, food from an agri-world, or such like. Only primitive planets can endure without contact to other colonies - or some very rare examples of civilised worlds, but we're talking about earth-like planets with millions of people.

Cheers,

-Bone

If the rest of the players are happy with the focus of the colony, then I thin you just need to change gears as the GM. Throw out your ideas of forcing the RT to explore the Expanse. Yes, they might be really cool ideas, really good ideas, but your player is signalling he's really interested in developing THIS frontier colony.

So watch some Deadwood . Read some books on the Old West or exploration of Africa or Australia.

There are tonnes of exciting ideas about colony management such as

- standing up at high noon against Ork raiders here to pillage the colony.

- deciding how to save the colony when theres a vital shortage - rationing, sacrifice, or do they raid other worlds to keep their colony going?

- What is the miners dig too deep and a daemon/Necron/Stone Man is released?

- How does encroaching civilisation (e.g. the Adminstratum and their tithes) or spoiledd newcomers interact/affect the hardy original pioneers?

- What if a local, heretical cult of self sufficiency and " What has the Emperor done for me? !" start spreading amongs the colonists who really dont see the Light of the Emperor in their lives any more?

- Are there aboriginal inhabitants to co-exist with?

You have a great campaign in the offing- it just might not be the one you were expecting to run. Thats fine- that happens to GM's all the time. Gaming is a 2 way street- an interaction between you and the players. The players want to go one way- letting them and giving them challenges will be far more enjoyable for everyone involved than forcing them back onto the railroad.

SJE

If the colony is self-sufficient and has abundant resources, then the players aren't going to be the only Rogue Traders interested in the planet.

Have a rival turn up and establish rival colonies. Have trade ships start trying to undercut the PCs, or to outbid them on whatever the colony produces. Have their enemies send agents to stir up trouble and cause dissident groups to form, who they then start equipping with weapons.

Read up on the real world history of the European colonial expansion, or the American Frontier (Deadwood, as sugggested above, is a perfect example). Anyone who thinks that establishing a colony is less dangerous or challenging than finding the site it's located to begin with is very much mistaken.

SJE said:


If the rest of the players are happy with the focus of the colony, then I thin you just need to change gears as the GM. Throw out your ideas of forcing the RT to explore the Expanse. Yes, they might be really cool ideas, really good ideas, but your player is signalling he's really interested in developing THIS frontier colony.

Step one would be the social ramifications. Have characters who have interactions with him either purposely or honestly mistake him for a free trader or a planetary governor. A few rounds of "Oh I am sorry I thought you were a Rogue Trader not a (slander here)" or " Well this has been a stimulating conversation but I would like to speak to the Rogue Trader now." Should get across the point that his status is taking a heavy hit.

Step two is to go after his profit factor. If he is spending all of his time on a single investment of his the other are going to suffer.

Step three is have a member of his dynasty turn on him and try to take the warrant of trade from him (after he is dead of course). His fixation on a single colony and constant slow decline of his fortunes (profit factor) have signaled to the rest of his dynasty that he is unfit and to save the dynasty he will need to be removed.

Step four is rivals. During character creation players tend to pick up hated foes and rivals. Have one of them show up with a bigger fleet than he has. You can even have them monologue the player about how they were wasting there time while they(the rival) spent there time amassing power.

These may seem heavy handed, but they are not meant to come without warning, for instance before step 3 would happen the player should get several warnings from his senschel that there are rumblings of discontent from his dynasty, etc.

Aslo some other possibilities are.

Put a condition in the warrant of trade that he must explore/survey 1 new system every 3 years to keep it (or some such)

Have big events effect the colony indirectly. An ork wagh has taken out a planet used as a link in the colonies supply/trade chain. Thus if he wants to help the colony he needs to do something to help defeat the waghh! Perhaps he is asked to scout out some warp routes deep into ork territory so a fleet can be sent behind enemy lines to disrupt the wagghs supply chain. ETC ETC

I would avoid directly hammering the colony itself especially when he was not there to defend it.

A good option is to make the colony BORING BORING BORING. Make everything he tries to do with it (within reason) a success(barely) and make it take forever. Avoid conflict and intrigue at all costs. In the meantime have some big events go on in the back ground that they hear about from trader captains. An OrK Waggghh!!, the Thule explorator fleet (the whole thing) has come back to port wander, a previously unknown xenos empire has been discovered in the expanse, etc ,etc. After a little while of nothing happening on the colony and nifty and interesting stuff going on everywhere else your RT should be tempted off planet.

Cat that Walked by Himself said:

I agree with Bonesaw.

Your 'situation' is really an opportunity in disguise. Your player has handed you perfect plot generator. Basically, he is setting small colony in the middle of the hostile territory. Make him work for it. Throw obstacles in his path. Pirates, xenos, unstable warp routes...anything can happen (and it does). Make his bride-to-be a Genestealer hybrid!

Well, maybe not the last one...

Absolutely. Bonesaw is correct. This is a beautiful opportunity in disguise. Pirates, Xenos invaders...I really like the idea of the Treasure Map. Try to show him that Grace is just the first gem in the crown of his Dynasty and appeal to his sense of greed and lust for Profit.

It's like selling cars. My manager told me not to worry about how much money I'm going to make on one sale. Concentrate on selling more than your quota and the paycheck will be good. The Paycheck is important, not each individual sale.

Same with conquering planets I figure.

One thing though, If you 'punish' him by abducting his wife or having the Tau invade his planet, he'll never see it as being for "His Greater Good". He'll likely cling to Grace and feverishly spend even MORE time on it, trying to make it a Fortress World or some such nonsense.

Try to get him OFF that rock and then show him that it's (and his wife) are doing just fine without him so that he doesn't feel the need to babysit the **** thing all the time.

CmdrBonesaw said:

Never forget a RT lives and dies by his reputation. Quietly managing their planet is NOT what their job is, and not what people expect them to do.

Umm... the rulebook says that one of the reasons that Warrants of Trade are given out is so that over-ambitious generals can do exactly that: go out and conquer worlds in the name of the Imperium. The possibility of one day ruling your own little mini-empire is one of the reasons that they're so highly valued.

One idea for spurring the player is to have him hear about how one of the other Rogue Traders is making a bid to rebuild one of the ruined dome-cities of Naduesh into a proper Hive with the intention of being named Lord Koronus. Given typical PC proclivities, he's not going to let that stand; odds are he'll make a bid for Sector Governor of his own. That'll require leaving the planet, possibly to rediscover and conquer Raakata or Vaporius, or going and attempting to go and take over Zayth, or attempting to build hives of his own on New Grace, with all the billions of people and monstrous amounts of equipment that'll require. Or all four, if he's feeling ambitious.

Let's not forget, of course, about the fact that every hive world requires multiple agriworlds to feed it. He'll need to locate suitable worlds, get the people to them, get those colonies running, get a bunch of ships for Chartrist Captains to run food along and discover safe routes for them to use, and so on.

GalagaGalaxian said:

Remind him those colonies aren't "his", he helped found him yes, but they are Imperium territories and eventually will have Imperium Governors. It is the Imperium's job to run and defend them, not his.

Tis his warrent of Trade. It is his planet if he can settle and hold it and he can become Imperial Govenor if he wants. Or Sell it to some mug or loose it in a game of cards.

"Many Rogue Traders use the Warrent to conquer or colonise newly discovered planets, taking up the role of Imperial Commander." RT p 322

That's assuming it wasn't a condition of the Warrent or some deal with another imperial faction that brought about the colonisation attempt. And that it was outside the empire or uninhabited to begin with.

Of course if he does make himself Imperial Governor of a thriving colony world then the Empire's concerns consist of has he paid his tithes and taxes and paid lipservice to the ministorum, etc. [Rulebook p325]

Dahak said:

GalagaGalaxian said:

Remind him those colonies aren't "his", he helped found him yes, but they are Imperium territories and eventually will have Imperium Governors. It is the Imperium's job to run and defend them, not his.

Tis his warrent of Trade. It is his planet if he can settle and hold it and he can become Imperial Govenor if he wants. Or Sell it to some mug or loose it in a game of cards.

"Many Rogue Traders use the Warrent to conquer or colonise newly discovered planets, taking up the role of Imperial Commander." RT p 322

That's assuming it wasn't a condition of the Warrent or some deal with another imperial faction that brought about the colonisation attempt. And that it was outside the empire or uninhabited to begin with.

Of course if he does make himself Imperial Governor of a thriving colony world then the Empire's concerns consist of has he paid his tithes and taxes and paid lipservice to the ministorum, etc. [Rulebook p325]

It's not "his" planet. It is the Imperium's planet, since the Rogue Traders warrant of trade was a gifted to him/her by the Adeptus Terra, and the warrant do come with obligations to the Imperium of man, and these obligations do cross over to any permanent colonies founded by the Rogue Trader.

While the Rogue Trader is considered to be the ranking commander in chief of any newly founded colonies and it is well within his power to appoint himself as the planetary governor for the time being, it's still not his planet to own or do whatever he likes with. Some day the Imperium will want to assimilate that particular civilization, and sooner than that, they will want to collect the tithes from any production that colony engages in. This of course means that sooner or later the Administratum will hear of this colony and if it is a small one they will deem it "too unproductive in regards to the expected planetary resources", then they will take steps in contacting the Adeptus Mechanicus and start turning the "Rogue Trader's" planet into an industrialized society in order to bleed the planet dry of it's resources faster and in a more efficient manner. And all the Rogue Trader is legally entitled to do is to sit by and watch them go ahead, because obstructing this process would most likely forfeit his warrant of trade.

So, neither the colony nor the planet is for the Rogue Trader to legally own, it belongs to the Imperium of man. Even if the Rogue Trader and his or her dynasty would like to pretend to be kings and queens of their own personal little kingdom, they are only living that way on borrowed time. And sure if they are compliant in helping out the Imperial dignitaries and facilitators to making the best use of the planet in question, then maybe the planet will be named after the Rogue Trader in official Imperial records. But that still doesn't make the Rogue Trader to the planet's lawful owner.

Private ownership might concern ships, men and other tangible resources, but never planets...

Varnias Tybalt said:

It's not "his" planet. It is the Imperium's planet, since the Rogue Traders warrant of trade was a gifted to him/her by the Adeptus Terra, and the warrant do come with obligations to the Imperium of man, and these obligations do cross over to any permanent colonies founded by the Rogue Trader.

While the Rogue Trader is considered to be the ranking commander in chief of any newly founded colonies and it is well within his power to appoint himself as the planetary governor for the time being, it's still not his planet to own or do whatever he likes with. Some day the Imperium will want to assimilate that particular civilization, and sooner than that, they will want to collect the tithes from any production that colony engages in. This of course means that sooner or later the Administratum will hear of this colony and if it is a small one they will deem it "too unproductive in regards to the expected planetary resources", then they will take steps in contacting the Adeptus Mechanicus and start turning the "Rogue Trader's" planet into an industrialized society in order to bleed the planet dry of it's resources faster and in a more efficient manner. And all the Rogue Trader is legally entitled to do is to sit by and watch them go ahead, because obstructing this process would most likely forfeit his warrant of trade.

So, neither the colony nor the planet is for the Rogue Trader to legally own, it belongs to the Imperium of man. Even if the Rogue Trader and his or her dynasty would like to pretend to be kings and queens of their own personal little kingdom, they are only living that way on borrowed time. And sure if they are compliant in helping out the Imperial dignitaries and facilitators to making the best use of the planet in question, then maybe the planet will be named after the Rogue Trader in official Imperial records. But that still doesn't make the Rogue Trader to the planet's lawful owner.

Private ownership might concern ships, men and other tangible resources, but never planets...

What? No, the Imperium is happy to leave worlds unindustrialized and mostly unutilized; feral worlds can produce useful warriors, after all, and there are a lot of feral worlds in the Imperium.

Besides, I think you might be a bit mistaken on the concept of the ownership of planets; the local Planetary Governor effectively does own the planet, if he wants to. As long as he delivers his tithes on time, and doesn't go heretical, they couldn't care less about how the Planetary Governor goes about the business of ruling his planet. Hell, some planets are democracies, with the Planetary Governor elected by popular vote!

A Rogue Trader is free to go out and found his own little kingdom out beyond the borders of the Imperium, and what's more, they are often given Warrants of Trade for that purpose, often to get rid of an over-grasping general or overly ambitious noble. He'll just have to pay his tithes when they ask him to, and he's free to do whatever the hell he wants with the people and planets under his rule. If he manages to conquer himself more than just one planet, he'll just wind up being recognized as the Lord (Sub-)Sector.

Leogun_91 said:

The rest of the players aren't happy with it, the Rogue trader is. The Astropath and Arch-militant wants to explore.

I think first of all, you need to talk to at least the RT, if not the whole party. The idea here is to have fun, and you need to find out what your players can all enjoy. It sounds like the RT really wants to manage the colony. Maybe he can do that "out of game" with you, with some in game effects. Maybe he can, via e-mail between sessions, organize a training center to have (never TOO many) trained crew or soldiers ready as reinforcements. Maybe his dealings at the colony can generate exploratory plot leads (the Adeptus Mechanicus would consider a station here if only a tribute of Archeotech could be provided). Maybe another RT tried to seduce his wife (or, if too close to home, sabotaged the admin of the planet, stole an important thing; e.g., the Constitution, etc...), and he has to track him down for revenge.

nick012000 said:

What? No, the Imperium is happy to leave worlds unindustrialized and mostly unutilized; feral worlds can produce useful warriors, after all, and there are a lot of feral worlds in the Imperium.

No, the reason why some worlds are left unindustrialized is because industrializing every individual world takes time and resources that the Imperium might have to spend elsewhere for the moment. Even a realtively "new" hiveworld takes hundreds and even thousands of years to reach it's industrialized climax. But if the Departemento Munitorium and the Administratum could, they would industrialize all planets in the Imperium at the blink of an eye. Also feral worlds might produce useful warriors, they tend to be in too low numbers to be considered an efficient industry (a feral world is pretty deadly after all, and communities are usually kept small because of the natural selection).

nick012000 said:

Besides, I think you might be a bit mistaken on the concept of the ownership of planets; the local Planetary Governor effectively does own the planet, if he wants to. As long as he delivers his tithes on time, and doesn't go heretical, they couldn't care less about how the Planetary Governor goes about the business of ruling his planet. Hell, some planets are democracies, with the Planetary Governor elected by popular vote!

That's still not ownership, just a limited form of rulership. For instance, if an Imperial official decides that a specific mountainrange on that planet is to be mined to dust, then he can just go ahead and start shipping in the relevant industry to that planet and order it to happen. And the Rogue Trader/Planetary governor isn't in a position to refuse this.

It is true that the Imperium doesn't really care exactly how a world is governed, but the governor is not the owner of that world, he's just it's ranking caretaker. And the Imperium is even well within it's rights to enforce obligations on him or her (like increasing the tithes, ordering him to have specific Imperial installations built etc. etc.)

That's not "effectively owning" a planet, that is being the Imperium of man's carateker lapdog (which all planetary governors are).

nick012000 said:

A Rogue Trader is free to go out and found his own little kingdom out beyond the borders of the Imperium, and what's more, they are often given Warrants of Trade for that purpose, often to get rid of an over-grasping general or overly ambitious noble. He'll just have to pay his tithes when they ask him to, and he's free to do whatever the hell he wants with the people and planets under his rule. If he manages to conquer himself more than just one planet, he'll just wind up being recognized as the Lord (Sub-)Sector.

It works like this: as long as the Imperium of man doesn't take note of the worlds he has conquered, then he can do whatever he wants with them. But having the ability to do whatever he wants with them doesn't imply ownership. It's more like Rogue Traders are sent out to "find" new worlds for the Imperium, not to find them for themselves.

And like I said, the Imperium has all the right to come barging in on the Rogue Trader's founded domains and demand pretty much anything from these worlds. And if the Rogue Trader would try to say: "No, these are MY worlds and you can't do that!" then his warrant of trade would be revoked faster than you can blink.

Warrants of trade do come with obligations you know, and one of them is letting the Imperium of man have full access to do whatever it deems necessary to any worlds you've found. So how does that make the Rogue Trader an "owner"?

It's like saying that you "own" a house, but the government still maintains a legal right to break into your house, steal stuff it wants from your house, place gigantic communications towers or oil-drilling towers in your backyard of that house. And if you were to object to this, the government is within it's rights to tear up your drivers license and either kill you or imprisoning you, or simply confine you to your own home and take your car away.

Would you really call that "ownership"? happy.gif

It's like saying that you "own" a house, but the government still maintains a legal right to break into your house, steal stuff it wants from your house, place gigantic communications towers or oil-drilling towers in your backyard of that house. And if you were to object to this, the government is within it's rights to tear up your drivers license and either kill you or imprisoning you, or simply confine you to your own home and take your car away.

Would you really call that "ownership"?

In the USA? Yeah, we do it all the time. The government does control the mineral rights, it can cancel any of your liscenses it wishes (you can try to appeal), and there are search and seizure laws that can be worked around if the government views you as treasonous (or a terrorist). If you have anything that the government says you shouldn't - drugs, WMDs, sex-slaves, etc. on your property - then the USA isn't too much differnt from the Imperium.

HappyDaze said:

In the USA? Yeah, we do it all the time. The government does control the mineral rights, it can cancel any of your liscenses it wishes (you can try to appeal), and there are search and seizure laws that can be worked around if the government views you as treasonous (or a terrorist). If you have anything that the government says you shouldn't - drugs, WMDs, sex-slaves, etc. on your property - then the USA isn't too much differnt from the Imperium.

Uhm, mineral rights in the United States are more oftenly an agreement between the landowner and the company wishing to drill for minerals under the surface of the landowners property. Meaning that it's more often a private business enterprise and not something the US government have much involvement with (unless one of the parties in the deal breaks certain aspects of the contract that is).

Second, ownership of drugs, WMD's and sex-slaves aren't something you can legally "own" in the US (and most other countries), while a citizen might "keep" such things on his or her property, keeping something is not the same thing as legally owning it. By that reasoning, I would "own" your car if I just stole it and keep it on my property, but naturally you and the government would certainly beg to differ.

It's the same thing with Rogue Traders and the Imperium. The Rogue Trader may have rights to "keep" and govern certain planets that he finds, but he doesn't really "own" them because of that fact.

Also, while I have to say that the fear-induced "Patriot act" in the US among other "terrorist-paranoia" induced acts passed by the US government is not just a travesty on justice and human rights, but also the very constitution that the US claims to have built it's very country upon, I'd have to say that it is a bit of a stretch to claim that government interference with keeping/ownership happens "all the time", don't you agree? gui%C3%B1o.gif

I can assure you that in comparison with the Imperium of man, the United States would seem like a liberal utopia. Heck, even the Soviet Union under Stalin's rule would seem "liberal" by comparison. gran_risa.gif