astrid is way over hyped guys, seriously. she is good but she is not one of the best two or even 5 characters imo. cheap attacks with low speed dont' scare me. you just have to be faster than astrid and there are a ton of decks that are just that. jin, zi mei, heihachi, etc. everyone thinks reversal pommel is the end of the world. get over it and play ufs.
darklogos you are fine, i was kidding with you hence the smiley face in my response. you are alot higher tier than shinji.
Scott Gaines said:
astrid is way over hyped guys, seriously. she is good but she is not one of the best two or even 5 characters imo. cheap attacks with low speed dont' scare me. you just have to be faster than astrid and there are a ton of decks that are just that. jin, zi mei, heihachi, etc. everyone thinks reversal pommel is the end of the world. get over it and play ufs.
darklogos you are fine, i was kidding with you hence the smiley face in my response. you are alot higher tier than shinji.
Gaines dude what is your logic here? I can't agree with you on this. Astrid is one of the few character in block 4 that can single handedly control the pace of an entire match-up from start to finish. Reversal pommel, regardless of character, is often devastating if not planned accordingly. Sure i dont think she is the absolute best, but she is up there. One of the few characters that prefers to play a long game and has all the tools to do so. And you mention you dont care about slow pokes. Well Astrid's slow pokes are always 14 damage late game. She only needs to really gum up one of your turns and wreck on the back swing. And while i agree with you that a ton of decks are faster than astrid, they should be because astrid is a pseudo control deck. She is going to take her time making you make the worst attacks possible then kill in one opportune counter attack.
that being said, kaz is very good. He just isnt as straightforward to play and build as king or astrid. I would actually disagree that he has a very good matchup against both king and astrid as both characters are much more reliant on establishing key staging area pieces than some of the other aggro decks like zi mei or jin. as more and more people settle into block 4, expect to see him doing much better.
Scott Gaines said:
To quote everyone in the ufs community almost, you are garbage.
Chaos abuses characters, so yes that makes them the god tier of the game? yeah it makes one symbol good with them! ZOMG BBQSAUCE it's so LEET!! get the **** out of here.
characters have their place for right now, but after more sets come out, you can waste your slots on characters, i'll take my foundations that will spread your cheeks for russia.
hugs and kisses,
Scott
edit: and another thing, i see you posting elsewhere saying how kazuya hasn't done anything yet, well there has been one tournament that is considered a major since gencon, so yeah wow statistics really can make anything, any argument seem viable. I said kazuya would win a city championship and those are next year dood, so you might want to stop your gloating, b/c we can go back to the millions of times you have denied facts and looked like a complete dumb ass on the forums. your days as mr game and watch are loaded with them
steve talking **** to me was funny, and you guys think killer android is the end all be all to kazuya? wow you guys are dumb. so what do decks that cant run killer android do against him? even if you have killer android, your whole board can be stunned so easy. it's so funny to see people posting that think they know so much about ufs, but in reality suck. shinji at worlds, nats whatever, bring a deck to play against my kazuya. let's play for cards/money whatever and see what happens.
Whoa, dude, where in the **** did this come from? I've only come to admire you since Worlds, and as one of the most facetious and sarcastic members amongst the board, you've clearly taken my humor as hatred. Your detection of simple humor is made of failure, apparently =/.
I'm much more an Earth and Life player right now than I am a Chaos one, so I happen to agree that foundations > chars.
You see ME posting everywhere that Kazuya hasn't done anything? Really? Got any proof? Because if you look in the deckbuilding forum, I posted a Kazuya deck that I'm extremely proud of. I consider all 3 Mishimas to be top tier. Also, more often than not my opinions have wound up being correct. Every single card I've labeled overpowered has been banned, so what you know about these nuts, and how do you like hugging them?
Steve wasn't talking ****, he was simply saying you haven't even played him, which at the time was an obvious truth. Who said Killer Android is going to mean Kazuya won't see play?
Seems to me like you've got your panties in a bundle due to some constant misunderstandings. I like Kazuya a lot, and plan on building him when I can. Not sure how he'll do, but I still think he's at least A tier, easily.
You really need to calm down, eat an eskimo pie, and relax. I have nothing against you, but if you want to sit here and scream and shut, then just be ready for a verbal ass-whooping that ends with some major teabagging.
Not gonna lie, pretty offended by this. Whatever. Kazuya's the ****, as is Chaos.
MarcoPulleaux said:
It's Scott Gaines.
**** like this is all he posts, that and inside jokes.
So basically non-productive loudspeak?
OK, noted.
MarcoPulleaux said:
So basically non-productive loudspeak?
OK, noted.
I'd say much like me. Except I haven't been funny in ages so the loudspeak has kind of dried up.
darklogos said:
Thing is most decks have a hard time reseting up against Kazuya after he wipes the staging area. Many times most decks don't recover hardly at all. The biggest time to hit is when there is 3-4 of a key card on the field. This makes it so that its going to be almost impossible for them to regain momentum. The only problem I see is that Kazuya has a problem reseting up himself. If he is behind in staging area game there are few options for him to get key elements back. The only character that laughs at his ability is Omar. Omar just picks his cards out of the staging area and tactically rebuilds.
This is not true, though. Certain decks can't recover, but the vast majority don't care. If he gets to a position where he needs to reset, usually he is behind in vitality, so I'll just start hardchecking attacks and tossing some foundations afterwards. I beat Kazuya with Rashotep this way twice, after multiple resets, and Rasho is one of the WORST characters at dealing with board resets.
Also I think Kazuya is better than people think, but the key is the enhance and not the reset. Also, finding a way to fuel that E is key. Mishima Family Bloodline is elite with him for that reason, naturally being a support card. Kazuya's biggest problem is that his resource spread is limited in card draw, which he needs to be totally abusive. Frankly, Jin is easier and less work which is why more people are messing with Jin.
I agree fully with what Drew said as well, Astrid and King do not have an easy go with Kazuya, not if the Kazuya player is paying attention anyway. Kazuya is another character who is capable of dictating pace, and can do devasting things to both King and Astrid with an early character stack or two.
I agree that the damage enhance get little attention paid to it because the nuke option seems so shiny. I think people think big bang to many times.
ShippuJinrai said:
Scott Gaines said:
astrid is way over hyped guys, seriously. she is good but she is not one of the best two or even 5 characters imo. cheap attacks with low speed dont' scare me. you just have to be faster than astrid and there are a ton of decks that are just that. jin, zi mei, heihachi, etc. everyone thinks reversal pommel is the end of the world. get over it and play ufs.
darklogos you are fine, i was kidding with you hence the smiley face in my response. you are alot higher tier than shinji.
Gaines dude what is your logic here? I can't agree with you on this. Astrid is one of the few character in block 4 that can single handedly control the pace of an entire match-up from start to finish. Reversal pommel, regardless of character, is often devastating if not planned accordingly. Sure i dont think she is the absolute best, but she is up there. One of the few characters that prefers to play a long game and has all the tools to do so. And you mention you dont care about slow pokes. Well Astrid's slow pokes are always 14 damage late game. She only needs to really gum up one of your turns and wreck on the back swing. And while i agree with you that a ton of decks are faster than astrid, they should be because astrid is a pseudo control deck. She is going to take her time making you make the worst attacks possible then kill in one opportune counter attack.
that being said, kaz is very good. He just isnt as straightforward to play and build as king or astrid. I would actually disagree that he has a very good matchup against both king and astrid as both characters are much more reliant on establishing key staging area pieces than some of the other aggro decks like zi mei or jin. as more and more people settle into block 4, expect to see him doing much better.
when i come to atl 3rd weekend in november show me what's up then drew
i don't think she is top 5 my shniggy.
right here saying kazuya hasn't been a problem ever since. maybe i went over the top whatever, but the fact of the matter is chaos is not a top 3 symbol. it gets rocked by all, fire and earth. end of discussion. even some death decks give it the finger hard.
i hope you guys do jump on the chaos bandwagon it'll just make getting on cardboard easier for me hopefully
i doubt you can verbally ass kick me, but i'd like to see you try, this would be funny. will you be at the texas pro tour event? hopefully if i make it there we can talk some more trash.
i love the nut jokes, only proves your fabulousness.
yes homo ^_~
but real talk, keep doing what you do shinji, i'm just an ornery old man of ufs and some stuff has me pissed off lately. i can say i went overboard, but it's whatever, the forums don't matter, so it's all good man. see you around the tournament scene this year hopefully.
I guess the reason i decided to **** on your chest was b/c you keep saying "scott you don't know what you are talking about etc." and that **** has me really pissed off b/c it shows ffg's amazing grasp of this game and how they dont' listen to people at first.
how long did it take these doods to ban chesters, bitter rivals, lotm, errata c boxing, spiral arrow, rejection, chun li, etc. way too late after chun li, gill etc won so many events.
MarcoPulleaux said:
Scott Gaines said:
To quote everyone in the ufs community almost, you are garbage.
Chaos abuses characters, so yes that makes them the god tier of the game? yeah it makes one symbol good with them! ZOMG BBQSAUCE it's so LEET!! get the **** out of here.
characters have their place for right now, but after more sets come out, you can waste your slots on characters, i'll take my foundations that will spread your cheeks for russia.
hugs and kisses,
Scott
edit: and another thing, i see you posting elsewhere saying how kazuya hasn't done anything yet, well there has been one tournament that is considered a major since gencon, so yeah wow statistics really can make anything, any argument seem viable. I said kazuya would win a city championship and those are next year dood, so you might want to stop your gloating, b/c we can go back to the millions of times you have denied facts and looked like a complete dumb ass on the forums. your days as mr game and watch are loaded with them
steve talking **** to me was funny, and you guys think killer android is the end all be all to kazuya? wow you guys are dumb. so what do decks that cant run killer android do against him? even if you have killer android, your whole board can be stunned so easy. it's so funny to see people posting that think they know so much about ufs, but in reality suck. shinji at worlds, nats whatever, bring a deck to play against my kazuya. let's play for cards/money whatever and see what happens.
Whoa, dude, where in the **** did this come from? I've only come to admire you since Worlds, and as one of the most facetious and sarcastic members amongst the board, you've clearly taken my humor as hatred. Your detection of simple humor is made of failure, apparently =/.
I'm much more an Earth and Life player right now than I am a Chaos one, so I happen to agree that foundations > chars.
You see ME posting everywhere that Kazuya hasn't done anything? Really? Got any proof? Because if you look in the deckbuilding forum, I posted a Kazuya deck that I'm extremely proud of. I consider all 3 Mishimas to be top tier. Also, more often than not my opinions have wound up being correct. Every single card I've labeled overpowered has been banned, so what you know about these nuts, and how do you like hugging them?
Steve wasn't talking ****, he was simply saying you haven't even played him, which at the time was an obvious truth. Who said Killer Android is going to mean Kazuya won't see play?
Seems to me like you've got your panties in a bundle due to some constant misunderstandings. I like Kazuya a lot, and plan on building him when I can. Not sure how he'll do, but I still think he's at least A tier, easily.
You really need to calm down, eat an eskimo pie, and relax. I have nothing against you, but if you want to sit here and scream and shut, then just be ready for a verbal ass-whooping that ends with some major teabagging.
Not gonna lie, pretty offended by this. Whatever. Kazuya's the ****, as is Chaos.
I will state for record that I never claimed chaos was a top symbol. The focus of the article is to prove that it is better then what it was getting credit for and to get people to think differently. When we look at Chaos its filled out pretty well. The symbol is on the rise and I think its not that many steps behind death or All. Is it on par with Fire and Earth? Not yet. The best thing that has happened is that people are talking tech and getting inspired to do new stuff. How many folks gave reports of their play groups being bored with the meta and tired of seeing "x" fire character win. These types of articles inspire people to try something new and see what is needed to topple the reigning kings and queens of the game.
I would like to hear on what grounds you preface your last statement mainly looking at death and all. Death doesn't have the damage output overall. All is stuck trying to imitate fire most times.
darklogos said:
I will state for record that I never claimed chaos was a top symbol. The focus of the article is to prove that it is better then what it was getting credit for and to get people to think differently. When we look at Chaos its filled out pretty well. The symbol is on the rise and I think its not that many steps behind death or All.
I'll honestly say I haven't read the article, but Chaos has been pretty beastly even before the inclusion of the non-pack mishimas. They added a gimmick to Chaos (Characters), but I honestly found it pretty decent. I personally think it's in the same boat as Evil - since the use is not obvious, people think it sucks.
@Gaines- Yeah dude i would love to play you that weekend, but i am going to be in Kansas for Thanksgiving. I will throw Astrid together for the next time i see you. just give me a heads up. And im in no way calling you out. I am just stating what I have experienced from playtesting. B-Rad and Lambright (our local Astrid) have shown me a lot about the deck and most of its matchups in general i just feel that with a good build, the deck becomes very very strong. Think of it like playing a shoto in real street fighter. They don't actually dominate in any one aspect of anything, but they are just really good at doing everything. There is no one card that absolutely hoses Astrid while other decks in the top tiers dont really have that luxury. Astrid is super versatile and shines in her ability to control pace very well imho.
As for chaos, I completely think that the symbol is more than just a gimmick and is easily in the top 4 symbols right now. Fire, Earth, Death, Chaos, and All are what ifeel to be tje most viable symbols right now. Chaos' biggest problem in my opinion is its lack of a good answer to stun. However, the benefits of playing the symbol are huge. For instance, chaos has a huge selection of offensive characters that make pommel a lot weaker. Omar and the Mishimas could care less if you pommel them. Second, the deck is incredibly fast. Very consistent turn 2 kills in chaos with mediocre or better grips and semi consistent turn 1 kills in heihachi depending on matchup. Third, the character card gimmick is both cool and functional. Why would i want to play character cards when i can just play defensive foundations or other cards that stay in my staging area and dont clog up build turns? Well chaos actually benefits me for running characters on top of the 6cc and +0 mid block. Being able to turn extra characters into damage or foundation control is huge and is a very unique concept. Finally, the attacks in chaos are ridic! Spinning demon is phenomenal, dark geo is huge, deadly rings, lion slayer, demon slayer, are all great. If you ask anybody in Atlanta what the best attack in the format is, i guarantee 9/10 (because marco is bad...) will tell you wheel kick. The symbol has a lot going for it. It just doesnt have the defense it needs yet. Compare it to block 1 chaos where it was a tier 2 heavy aggro symbol. If you resolved your crucial cards (like material advantage and sky high claw or power up multiple gimmicks or OG earth divide decks) you won and you won fast. Block 4 chaos is a lot like that however the added support for character cards makes your defensive tricks a little bit better albeit not great. Giving chaos a new, balanced tira's contract would be very huge for the symbol.
In essence, i think the symbol is great. Easily top 4 or 5. Keenan meadows proved this at the SAS with his dumbtarded Heihachi deck that almost turn 1'd me during the swiss. The symbol is explosive and very good. It just needs that little bit of support to really push it into busted status.
ShippuJinrai said:
In essence, i think the symbol is great. Easily top 4 or 5. Keenan meadows proved this at the SAS with his dumbtarded Heihachi deck that almost turn 1'd me during the swiss. The symbol is explosive and very good. It just needs that little bit of support to really push it into busted status.
I think it goes without saying I find Astrid to be the best character, tied with King, at the moment. Not to disagree with Scott though, she is overrated in that many people think they can just play Astrid and win. This isn't true, we have quite a bit of parody, there is no Chun-li of block 4 at the moment. What Scott is getting at is right, there are a lot of decks that can catch Astrid off gaurd, there are a few decks that can match her middle game, there are very few decks that can match her long game.
Anyways, Chaos. I recently said this for my symbol tiering:
1 - Fire, Earth
1.5 - Death
2 - All, Void, Chaos
2.5 - Life
3 - Air, Good, Evil
4 - Order, Water
I'm pretty much of the same opinion at the moment, but thinking that Void can probably go to 2.5 with life.
If you were to ask me what Chaos is missing it would be a 'consistent' character the likes of King or Astrid. Chaos' best character is either Omar or Heachi in my mind, Jin ain't bad either. However, Jin and Heiachi especially suffer from the 6hs relatively little draw problems that most 6hsers do. It isn't unusual for me to not draw into momentum generation, not draw into the character cards, etc. Compare this to King and Queen, they always have very good control over what they can use their character ability for, i.e. Astrid always gives damage mid/late and always has reversals, and King always can always throw throws... The only comarison is King not drawing into Path, which he doesn't rely on, but which greatly helps out his speed kill.
Omar is a very interesting character though, and I wouldn't be surprised if a chaos Omar with some Earth cards does exceptionally well at store tournies. Heaven forbid any character with support comes out that has Earth and Chaos or even All and Earth...
I guess I'm saying chaos is somewhere between 3rd best symbol and 6th best symbol but doesn't have a character that is 'as' consistent as Fire and Earth are providing. Don't get me wrong, Heiachi can win like 9/10 games and is fairly consistent, it just is ever so slightly more subject to the random nature of the game not having as much draw and not having as much gauranteed actions.
- dut
darklogos said:
I will state for record that I never claimed chaos was a top symbol. The focus of the article is to prove that it is better then what it was getting credit for and to get people to think differently. When we look at Chaos its filled out pretty well. The symbol is on the rise and I think its not that many steps behind death or All. Is it on par with Fire and Earth? Not yet. The best thing that has happened is that people are talking tech and getting inspired to do new stuff. How many folks gave reports of their play groups being bored with the meta and tired of seeing "x" fire character win. These types of articles inspire people to try something new and see what is needed to topple the reigning kings and queens of the game.
I would like to hear on what grounds you preface your last statement mainly looking at death and all. Death doesn't have the damage output overall. All is stuck trying to imitate fire most times.
death doesn't have the damage output? are you kidding me? wow just wow.
death can out pace chaos in the early game overall. some decks with the character card draw keep up sure, but cursed blood is godlike in this matchup. death has much better attacks.
throws, mid launcher, knight breaker, cleave, etc. nuff said about damage. jin's damage pump in a death deck is scary added onto heir to the storm, brooding, in search of plunder, int presence, all life is prey. does it need more? not to mention ka technique and rashoteps other foundation that gets rid of keywords lawl out loud at chaos. your multiple/powerful gets pooped on. not to mention the devil withing and now POWER OF THE ******* EDGE.
all steve fox, paul and ivy can beat chaos. ivy at worst goes 50/50. the games she doesn't get a draw engine going she loses hard. steve fox's damage reduction is way too good against chaos. paul can commit chaos few defensive pieces and then you get wooed. hammer of the gods plus paul is so dumb.
dutpotd said:
Any deck worth their salt will kill Astrid early-mid, or simply prevent her long game if they cannot. Hunger for Souls early on absolutely tears through her.
Scott Gaines said:
right here saying kazuya hasn't been a problem ever since.
i love the nut jokes, only proves your fabulousness.
yes homo ^_~
but real talk, keep doing what you do shinji, i'm just an ornery old man of ufs and some stuff has me pissed off lately.
I guess the reason i decided to **** on your chest was b/c you keep saying "scott you don't know what you are talking about etc." and that **** has me really pissed off b/c it shows ffg's amazing grasp of this game and how they dont' listen to people at first.
Um, I say Kazuya hasn't been a problem, AND HE HAS NOT. I didn't say he was bad; I still feel he's top tier. However, where has his major showing been? Oh, right, nowhere.
It doesn't prove my fabulousness (but I am pretty fabulous, not gonna lie); it proves I read around the SRK forums more than I should.
You're an old man of UFS, and boy I sure do hate old people =p. If things are pissing you off, how 'bout be patient? Wait til the next set? I mean, dude, I'm me. My ****** bleeds more than anyone's on this forum, but I still love the game, still play, etc.
I don't keep saying Scott doesn't know what he's talking about. I just like quoting Hata because I thought it was hilarious =). It's more of a light jab at you, not meant to offend or challenge you in any way. Like I said, I have nothing bad against you at all (unlike certain other people I met at Worlds), so really, I'm being more playful (no homo) when I quote Hata.
good **** good ****. i'm sure alot of people hate me, but i can honestly say i don't care what people think. it's not worth worrying about, I just do what I do and have fun most times.
on kazuya's major showing, there has been one major, just wait till next year, he will be spreading cheeks.
MarcoPulleaux said:
Scott Gaines said:
right here saying kazuya hasn't been a problem ever since.
i love the nut jokes, only proves your fabulousness.
yes homo ^_~
but real talk, keep doing what you do shinji, i'm just an ornery old man of ufs and some stuff has me pissed off lately.
I guess the reason i decided to **** on your chest was b/c you keep saying "scott you don't know what you are talking about etc." and that **** has me really pissed off b/c it shows ffg's amazing grasp of this game and how they dont' listen to people at first.
Um, I say Kazuya hasn't been a problem, AND HE HAS NOT. I didn't say he was bad; I still feel he's top tier. However, where has his major showing been? Oh, right, nowhere.
It doesn't prove my fabulousness (but I am pretty fabulous, not gonna lie); it proves I read around the SRK forums more than I should.
You're an old man of UFS, and boy I sure do hate old people =p. If things are pissing you off, how 'bout be patient? Wait til the next set? I mean, dude, I'm me. My ****** bleeds more than anyone's on this forum, but I still love the game, still play, etc.
I don't keep saying Scott doesn't know what he's talking about. I just like quoting Hata because I thought it was hilarious =). It's more of a light jab at you, not meant to offend or challenge you in any way. Like I said, I have nothing bad against you at all (unlike certain other people I met at Worlds), so really, I'm being more playful (no homo) when I quote Hata.