The question is would your players loot corpses if it was a choice between that and death, or do you just have such high turnover or so little combat that it doesn't matter ?

If they were caught in a prison and killed a guard and then needed weapon to get free, yes.

Otherwise, they take their time, they planify their mission, they develop and make contacts, and get the gear they need by doing jobs for other people that have the power and influence to give them what they want. In the end, influence is an abstract value. They make a test, succeed, they get to meet the good guy that can help them, sometime in exchange of something, then they get their power sword.

But in my games, anyways, gear stays pretty low, since high gear means being targeted by everyone that think you could be an ennemy.

That's a complicated conjecture. The game comes from the tabletop and the novels. I don't run pure 'purge missions' very often, but the poor social rules and the massive amount of attention paid to weapons, armor, and combat in general doesn't really support that DH was intended to be something like Trail of Cthulhu

Combat is what is more complicated. It doesn't mean that because it has more rules to fit it, it means that the game is mainly combat.

There are enough rules and contexts to make social a greater thing. In the end, tests vs tests are supposed to give results in a situation where tests are needed. It's not necessarily supposed to be a "Oh, I've got a good role, end of the social encounter".

Harlock Legacy, one of the greatest premade campaign, had not lots of fighting in it. Still, it represents in my opinion the greatest DH adventure and what the game is supposed to be like.

For the loot, there are many ways to help with this, I'll write something tomorrow

I'm a big Haarlock fan too. I've run 3/4 adventures. There was plenty of fighting in my iteration. Are you running traditionally around a table/VTT or on a forum ?

About a month in there was almost a whole session dedicated to to trading the loot gleaned from one battle.

I'd remind them that most loot isn't valuable enough to be worth them selling.

I'd probably also limit the number of times they can make a requisition test each session. I'm thinking once per player every x sessions. If they pass, that means whatever they requisitioned arrives at their home base sometime before they get back there. If they don't get back there for a few sessions, they don't get to get their new stuff. If they aren't in a position where looking for new equipment makes sense, I'll say that the looking/negotiating happened at some other time when it makes sense. For example, retconning it to: Remember when you bought x. You also tried to buy y then and it just arrived.

This does require a campaign where players stay in the same system long enough to have a home base.

Also, the only 'selling' option I'll give them is the trading in items rule on page 143. Which lets them trade in 1 item per test , and only if the item being traded in is rarer than the item they want. If they build up a large hoard of anything, it's probably going to be worthless to them as they can't trade it in directly and if they spend the time required to sell large numbers of anything, that's time they aren't spending investigating. Which will be bad for them. Making most stuff on a corpse worthless to players.

Failing the test doesn't mean they can't find the item. It could mean that they can't convince anyone to sell it. For example they might not have enough of the local currency to buy it.

Influence isn't just about money. It's also about who the PCs can call in favours from. Some equipment might be held by someone who will only sell to the "right" people. Failing the influence test means failing to convince him that the PC is the kind of person he's willing to sell to. Think snobby noble who only sells to people other nobles recommend.

I'm a big Haarlock fan too. I've run 3/4 adventures. There was plenty of fighting in my iteration. Are you running traditionally around a table/VTT or on a forum ?

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I play real life at home with me friends, every week, since DH was made by black industries.

For the loot, there are many ways to approach this:

In game:

-Bringing tons of weapons, armours and such to a reseller, armoury, etc. will rise suspicion. You can play with subtlety on that, which can be bad for them.

-You could have a squad of arbitrators that come to question them about these weapons they sell. Since they are inquisition operatives and Inquisition is known to be those eyes in the dark that watches you without you never seeing them (until it's too late), you could play the arbites being skeptical about them being inquisition's agents since they are supposed to be subtle and not engage themselves in such strange behaviours

-Make them sell weapons that, in the end, happend to be corrupted (texts folded in crossguards, malignant spirits attached to the weapons, etc.). Have them pleasure to discover that after their actions, they discover new cults, even minor one, that are well equipped with cheap weapon they bought because of them. Make happen that these cultists now are possessed/enlightened by chaos or other xenos gods. When they'll trace back the weapon, it will come to the buyer to which they sold them, and the guy will tell them "sorry lads, I thought that those weapons you sold me were okay, so I sold them again"

-Competition is violent: there are other smugglers and arms dealers that won't take well that some dudes come in and sell weapons at cheap price, especially if they discover that said weapons were those of past buyers, which are now dead because of the players. Said competition could trace back the players, and organise a very organised mercenary raid on thei head, which could prove to be costier than what they would have got with looting.

-After a few cases where cultists activities are corrected, the players sell weapons. An other Inquisitor or his agents make wrong connexions: they discover that each time there was heresy, local buys were supplied weapons to resell. Inquisition operatives discover this pattern in many cities/worlds and go on to track down the players, because they surely have something in link with it. Make the agents stomp on of the players mission because of this recklesness.

In the end, if you don't want them to loot, there must be consequences. Not always, let them loot when appropriate, but if they begin to make loot hoarding to make money, that ain't the job of an Inquisition agent. They must suffer what happen to those.

The question is would your players loot corpses if it was a choice between that and death, or do you just have such high turnover or so little combat that it doesn't matter ?

If they were caught in a prison and killed a guard and then needed weapon to get free, yes.

Otherwise, they take their time, they planify their mission, they develop and make contacts, and get the gear they need by doing jobs for other people that have the power and influence to give them what they want. In the end, influence is an abstract value. They make a test, succeed, they get to meet the good guy that can help them, sometime in exchange of something, then they get their power sword.

But in my games, anyways, gear stays pretty low, since high gear means being targeted by everyone that think you could be an ennemy.

That's a complicated conjecture. The game comes from the tabletop and the novels. I don't run pure 'purge missions' very often, but the poor social rules and the massive amount of attention paid to weapons, armor, and combat in general doesn't really support that DH was intended to be something like Trail of Cthulhu

Combat is what is more complicated. It doesn't mean that because it has more rules to fit it, it means that the game is mainly combat.

There are enough rules and contexts to make social a greater thing. In the end, tests vs tests are supposed to give results in a situation where tests are needed. It's not necessarily supposed to be a "Oh, I've got a good role, end of the social encounter".

Harlock Legacy, one of the greatest premade campaign, had not lots of fighting in it. Still, it represents in my opinion the greatest DH adventure and what the game is supposed to be like.

For the loot, there are many ways to help with this, I'll write something tomorrow

Hmm that sounds good, as combat in DH using Roll20 seems to be quite annoying and requires a lot of prior setup.

Hmm that sounds good, as combat in DH using Roll20 seems to be quite annoying and requires a lot of prior setup.

It does require preparation. Some people are a lot faster than me and just draw it out and throw on a few tokens. I'm a little extreme. I come from a background of tabletop and XCOM. If you aren't going to run combat in your games, then you probably won't have players for very long. I'll just tell you that.

This probably is the most extreme my mapping projects have ever got.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/175676-only-war-day-of-days/

We should get back to the topic though, which was about the requisition system.

I dont think that combat are something mandatory, especially in DH, the best session i had were the ones with a lot of plots (**** tzeentch), planning and finally after a good investigation, shorts ambush combats. Sometimes my players discuss for half hour about their plans. No combats sessions can be more entertaining but of course that need a good work of the narrator

Recently decided to write out a first-draft of some house rules / guidelines for my players regarding Requisitions. We've only used it once, so it might need more fleshing out. Maybe it can give you some ideas. Ctrl+F "Requisition". https://docs.google.com/document/d/18O3IqUiIHJdKsT9StMabEQ5AEzWBNG3JM76oiQWNMT4/edit?usp=sharing

If you notice anything glaring, please let me know.

I honestly I think that's the place all of us end up in. All of us are using house rules and we are all confused. Under the old system I was just giving out monthly pay. All I had to do was figure out how much the enemies had on them and when the month ended.

I have personally somewhat given up on trying to track subtlety, as there the guidelines for awarding/removing it seemed really up in the air. I just create a chance to punish them if they do something profoundly stupid.

This was a spreadsheet for the results of them getting recognized after murdering a bunch of guards. They got caught.

http://imgur.com/Ttssnja

On the presented material though, it seems very complex. I also could imagine players dumping influence early to tech up. There seem to be a few ways to do the same thing. Maybe a flowchart would help ?

My group hasn't played long enough for me to say that Subtlety is a big deal for us, but I feel that it will be once we start the next mission and they realize their actions follow them.

As for my house rules: you can't dump Influence for things so easily. To spend Influence for what they want, they have to have a Relationship to sacrifice. These are generally things that players won't want to give up (at least my players loath to lose good contacts that they they've saved and that have saved them in the past). They also can't ask someone to do something that is impossible for them to do (if their contact has an Influence of 30, he can't get them a -40 Availability resource).

The flow-chart is:

If you're doing a long-term requisition, look-up and roll the time it takes to get the item. Roll Commerce or Inquiry to reduce this. Once the time has passed, roll Commerce to try to get the standard Influence increase for the Requisition test. Roll the Requisition test. Short-term requisitions (you've spotted something you want and you're wanting to get it) are simpler: just roll the Commerce bonus and the Requisition test.

Certain items you automatically pass the Requisition test for (depending on your Influence Bonus). Additionally, you can use your Inquisitor's Influence or sacrifice a relationship to just get it (where it makes sense). Trading in works the same as in the book. That's it. Just small tweaks and guidelines. It made the whole process a lot less mystical for my players.

I honestly I think that's the place all of us end up in. All of us are using house rules and we are all confused. Under the old system I was just giving out monthly pay. All I had to do was figure out how much the enemies had on them and when the month ended.

I have personally somewhat given up on trying to track subtlety, as there the guidelines for awarding/removing it seemed really up in the air. I just create a chance to punish them if they do something profoundly stupid.

This was a spreadsheet for the results of them getting recognized after murdering a bunch of guards. They got caught.

http://imgur.com/Ttssnja

On the presented material though, it seems very complex. I also could imagine players dumping influence early to tech up. There seem to be a few ways to do the same thing. Maybe a flowchart would help ?

So, If I understand it correctly, You are confused by the requisition system but you made something MORE complicated? Don't get me wrong! It's a good effort but I found it more confusing than the original. Sorry! BTW: The time to find something based on availability is in both DH1 and RT if you want to use it! There are also modifiers you can apply for what kind of settlement you're in. You might want to check it out!

BTW: Please understand that the above was NOT intended as a personal attack! Just PEACH-y

I honestly I think that's the place all of us end up in. All of us are using house rules and we are all confused. Under the old system I was just giving out monthly pay. All I had to do was figure out how much the enemies had on them and when the month ended.

I have personally somewhat given up on trying to track subtlety, as there the guidelines for awarding/removing it seemed really up in the air. I just create a chance to punish them if they do something profoundly stupid.

This was a spreadsheet for the results of them getting recognized after murdering a bunch of guards. They got caught.

http://imgur.com/Ttssnja

On the presented material though, it seems very complex. I also could imagine players dumping influence early to tech up. There seem to be a few ways to do the same thing. Maybe a flowchart would help ?

So, If I understand it correctly, You are confused by the requisition system but you made something MORE complicated? Don't get me wrong! It's a good effort but I found it more confusing than the original. Sorry! BTW: The time to find something based on availability is in both DH1 and RT if you want to use it! There are also modifiers you can apply for what kind of settlement you're in. You might want to check it out!

BTW: Please understand that the above was NOT intended as a personal attack! Just PEACH-y

I think what I made up in my Solutions on the fist page was more simple. I think what @wholton made was more about about making it more precise and taking the question of 'can i roll for requisition now' and 'how do I get a _____ ?" out of the hands of the GM and putting it in the hands of the player, which is good in a way. I just think he has too many different pathways to the same goal.

I guess the point I'm making is that, as a GM, you don't want to have to answer simple questions. The more simple questions you are forced to answer the more the rule-set is failing you. You want to be making up rules for none-standard situations. Like 'What do I need to roll to throw a grenade in the monsters mouth ?' or 'Can we fire that macrocannon ? '.

When you 'can make rolls' and 'how many rolls you can make' is up in the air for requisition you have uncertainty. If you have a very professional group who are all method actors, then you're in luck. If you have a normal group, then you going to have someone asking 'Can I roll now ?'. What myself and a few other people are trying to do is answer that question before it is asked.

Just to throw something in real quick...

How I take care of hoarding?

Gear Degradation

GIST: if things break down they by logic become "consumable items" a term from D&D - meaning they are meant to get damaged, lost, and or subject to the complications of a transient if not turbulent life of an acolyte...

OK that's it I'm off

Stay GAMING

Morbid

Just to throw something in real quick...

How I take care of hoarding?

Gear Degradation

GIST: if things break down they by logic become "consumable items" a term from D&D - meaning they are meant to get damaged, lost, and or subject to the complications of a transient if not turbulent life of an acolyte...

OK that's it I'm off

Stay GAMING

Morbid

I think if players have a base they can horde, but as starting acolytes they normally can only have what they can carry. Or if its weapons then maybe they don't have the correct training for it, or the ammo is limited. Also if they're fighting mutants, daemons and xenos there won't be much to hoard anyway.

I'm all for this logic - 40lbs. (after that GM bias starts to bubble and then I start looking for Upkeep tests LOL)

Youtube-Video

Enjoy

Morbid

Perhaps in a future supplement, they will add a modifier table to influence similar to Rogue trader or the original DH1 Ascension. (From which the original "influence" system was born.) This table with terms of "Scale" and even length of Aquisition. The old table allowed Inquisitors to aquire Unique and near Unique items as "Loaners" for one adventure or one investigation after which it would be ostensibly returned.

This would actually make sense in the "Enemies Beyond" supplement since things like Sanctified Daemon hammers are not something you normally carry around!

I think if players have a base they can horde, but as starting acolytes they normally can only have what they can carry. Or if its weapons then maybe they don't have the correct training for it, or the ammo is limited. Also if they're fighting mutants, daemons and xenos there won't be much to hoard anyway.

One thing I plan to do when I run a DH campaign is to have my players regularly having to choose which gear they carry on their person, which they leave in their vehicle and what gets left behind at their base. Sure, I expect them to pull out the powerful weapons and armor when it's purging time (unless ammo is running low for that gun). But when they are investigating they will have to consider how the civilian population reacts to what they are seen carrying*. Going heavily armed means that civilians are likely to try and stay away from the party, which makes it harder to get them to answer any questions.

*Or not seen carrying. For example, if everyone in that part of the hive is carrying some form of gun on them, PCs without a visible gun will be suspicious. So a melee specialist might want to carry a gun that he doesn't intend to use.

For this to work, the acolytes would need to have a large variety of equipment at their base to choose from.

Back to Bilateralrope

Like an equipment "Loadout" (stealth, heavy, etc)

I like this idea - but it requires a foil - so that it can't be abused

What would be the exact Pros to this mechanic? "Able to switch out and obtain the necessary kit/gear for the job"

What would be the exact Cons to this mechanic? (everything has a cost / every action a reaction / etc)

I liked in the RT system for Profit Factor - if you use it more than once in the same game session it firstly incurs an automatic -10% penalty towards the acquisition / secondly it assigned a cumulative +10% story complication (i.e. a bad random event) - THIS WAS THE FOIL to their system!

What foil would work well for DH2? - seeing as acquisitions could be tied to Subtly (lets see how subtle you are ordering a red flag item on the internet today)...

Food for thought

Stay GAMING

Morbid

The way this mechanic would work is:

- I'm planning a campaign set in a single star system. Mostly set on a single planet. They will have some flying vehicle that lets them get around the planet quickly, with a ground vehicle for places the flying vehicle can't reach*.

- Players have lots of room to store stuff at their home base. I probably won't enforce any limitations on how much they can store unless they start getting silly with storing vehicles.

- When they leave base, they have to choose what they take with them. Stuff they carry on their person is subject to regular carry capacity limits, maybe with the ability to store some more stuff in their ground vehicle.

- The items they choose will have consequences. Too much firepower for investigations will attract attention they probably don't want. Too little firepower when it's purging time will have difficulties that should be obvious.

Quickish travel to and from base allows them to switch gear if they know they need to. The consequences are there to give them a reason to consider switching gear. The vehicles are the only things that might require house rules.

If formal loadouts come into existence, that's only because players decide that they want a quick way to declare all the gear they are bringing.

*If they want to fly over the compound and then jump out, that's their choice. Hopefully they arrange a pilot to stay aboard and fly it to safety after they jump.

I'm a vet who did alot of marching - I saw this the other day and well - this is how I handle "whats on your person"

Youtube-Video-Educational

Enjoy

I'm a vet who did alot of marching - I saw this the other day and well - this is how I handle "whats on your person"

Youtube-Video-Educational

Enjoy

Thank you for your service Don! Sandbox Vet?

In my Rt campaign I strongly encourage players to develop multiple profiles for different situations. The typical ones are

Exploration/combat: This is full tilt boogie combat loadout. Good for unexplored areas and battlefields.

Formal: Fancy attire for parties and diplomatic affairs. Typically very lightly armored (If at all!) and maybe a blade or Sidearm depending on culture/venue. Bonus given to social interactions for quality of clothing.

Base/home: Typically unarmed and unarmored but some people are just paranoid!

I don't really enforce this so much as I tell players that the default state is unarmed and unarmored for any condition for which they do not have a profile. (So Johnny Warbucks doesn't whip out his plasma gun when he's jumped in his bedroom!)

As Morbidon also alluded to: weight is and should be a factor! I've had more than one player tell me they were hauling around their heavy bolter, wearing Stormtrooper Carapace with an Evicerator and two plasma pistols as backup! They then whine when I tell them they're not going to move real fast or perform gymnastics! Go figure!

In my Rt campaign I strongly encourage players to develop multiple profiles for different situations. The typical ones are

Exploration/combat: This is full tilt boogie combat loadout. Good for unexplored areas and battlefields.

Formal: Fancy attire for parties and diplomatic affairs. Typically very lightly armored (If at all!) and maybe a blade or Sidearm depending on culture/venue. Bonus given to social interactions for quality of clothing.

Base/home: Typically unarmed and unarmored but some people are just paranoid!

I don't really enforce this so much as I tell players that the default state is unarmed and unarmored for any condition for which they do not have a profile. (So Johnny Warbucks doesn't whip out his plasma gun when he's jumped in his bedroom!)

I've tried this before in other games. Cyberpunk 2020 specifically. Sort of two profiles. It doesn't have much to do with requisition though. In the end it just leads to people running for the arms locker. Unless you are giving some kind of house ruled social bonus for dealing with people out of armor....

This thread seems to be breaking down into people on unrelated tangents.

As Morbidon also alluded to: weight is and should be a factor! I've had more than one player tell me they were hauling around their heavy bolter, wearing Stormtrooper Carapace with an Evicerator and two plasma pistols as backup! They then whine when I tell them they're not going to move real fast or perform gymnastics! Go figure!

What I'd do is that if the character is at or under the carrying limit (page 248) then he can do any acrobatics that he could do naked, unless he is wearing something that specifically affects them (for example, max agility on armors). Not quite realistic, but a close enough abstraction for my purposes.

In my Rt campaign I strongly encourage players to develop multiple profiles for different situations. The typical ones are

Exploration/combat: This is full tilt boogie combat loadout. Good for unexplored areas and battlefields.

Formal: Fancy attire for parties and diplomatic affairs. Typically very lightly armored (If at all!) and maybe a blade or Sidearm depending on culture/venue. Bonus given to social interactions for quality of clothing.

Base/home: Typically unarmed and unarmored but some people are just paranoid!

I don't really enforce this so much as I tell players that the default state is unarmed and unarmored for any condition for which they do not have a profile. (So Johnny Warbucks doesn't whip out his plasma gun when he's jumped in his bedroom!)

I've tried this before in other games. Cyberpunk 2020 specifically. Sort of two profiles. It doesn't have much to do with requisition though. In the end it just leads to people running for the arms locker. Unless you are giving some kind of house ruled social bonus for dealing with people out of armor....

This thread seems to be breaking down into people on unrelated tangents.

Is it a house rule when most of a crowd decides to stay away from the heavily armed people asking questions ?

Or when a cult sees a heavily armed group wandering around and decides to do one or more of the following:

- Pay close attention to what these outsiders are doing

- Rush their schedule

- Disperse until the heavily armed outsiders leave

- Shut down the cult and restart elsewhere

- Acquire some heavy weaponry they wouldn't have bothered with otherwise

@Bilateralrope

That's punishment approach. I've seen a lot of GM's advocate it, but very few actually put it into play successfully. I've even advocated it before, and then changed my mind on it. With the punishment approach you have to have something to take away like a players characters life, their gear, or their place at the table. I normally attack on the supply side these days. Saying 'It isn't available', as opposed to 'if you take it you will be punished' or @MorbidDon's approach of 'it could break down, if you overuse it'.

With the 'punishment' approach you often deal with players that just won't take a hint, and I've heard complaints from one of them specifically, a player in a Cyberpunk 2020 game, that I am going to highlight. This is roughly paraphrased, so I hope I haven't made any errors- 'The GM said C 2020 was style over substance, so I made a character with no armor, strong social skills, and several pages of back story - as per his request, then I got shot in the head in the first encounter. Lesson learned.' The players aren't stupid and will aggressively protect their characters, and most of us don't have a group of method actors who are going to pursue style over substance. These days I just assume all players have a bit of the munchkin in them.

Maybe one day I'll have a different group, but I've been playing for a number of years now with several groups and this has been my experience.