Old Master said:

Thanks for the reply oldmaster but I am having a hard time understanding why not knowing what a character's intention and goals are makes the game more suspenseful. If I don't know why you're hanging around the black knight why do I care? I will just go about my business and let you go about yours. Some things in the game that are kept hidden add more suspense, spell cards being a good example. Could you please elaborate on how hidden quests makes the cooler?

I understand JC's comment on hidden quests being more realistic, but more realism does not always mean more fun. In fact my favorite part of talisman is not getting bogged down with details to simulate realism like most RPGs do. The best example being spell casting which most systems require line of sight. Who cares if it's not realistic for a player in the city to be able to cast immobility on someone in the dungeon if makes the game more interesting. Fun is better than realism in my book mostly because I play games to have fun and take a break from reality. I don't play games to have reality slap me in the face.

Quest cards were not the only cards we were talking about. One question pertained to hidden Objects, though actually its about possessions in baggage or packed away on Followers of specific types. I didn't cover that part since others here have also used similar rules and knew of this already.

Such packed items, or one in hiding in a hidden pocket, or in a bag of carrying, are turned face down away from the god's eye view of other players... because their characters wouldn't see such. Essentially anything not readied (carried) on the adventurer (a character in play) is not visible to other characters... unless the other players remember everything that every other adventurer has drawn and stowed away. Not likely in a long game. More times than not they don't.

This has occassionally led to some nasty and entertaining surprises where particular possessions might not be on an adventurer to be used in an instant. Or when an adventurer preps with 4 chosen items, leaving others in baggage, and then gets jumped by something or someone who would have been better faced using some other set of items.

In other words, we nerfed not only the god's eye view of players in place of characters, forcing players to actually be their characters. We also nerfed the grab bag approach to Followers. What good is it to have an item called a bag of carrying, when adventurers just ****** up anything packed away on Mule or Horse & Cart in an instant... as if IT WAS a bag of carrying? And so it goes... There's more to it than this were Special Abilities are concerned, but this is the gist and foundation.

ameritrasher said:

You're assuming the rest of us would define what's fun in the same way you would. Obviously we don't. I play games for the stimulation and challenge as well... to me, that's fun. There's little point to a character, or even calling it that based upon Talisman's known origin as inspired by FRPG, if its not going to be treated like one... and is only an excuse for what can be done with it. If you don't want to play the way we do, that's fine. But don't make the assumption we're not doing it for the fun of it... because we are.

There was nothing better than watching a Prophetess whip ass on a Troll coming at her as easy prey when she pulled a runesword out of a bag of holding (a homemade variation) and cast a bolster on herself. Tasty moment! Although the Troll player may not have enjoyed it, the rest of us did.

Subsequently there has been talk about how that bag of holding and whether the Prophetess should have gotten away with it when the Troll was already on her. But it happened by our rules, so the Troll player can grip all he wants... he was being a cowardly bully all night anyway and got his comeupance.

And to Old Master, yes it may reduce the PvP in some ways, but it then forces better playing of CvC in its place... that's Character vs Character (inside the game world) instead of purely Player vs Player (outside of the game world... in gods' land.) Though not all of my gang have played any FRPG or even RPG in their lives, we like to look at Talisman as FRPG "Ultra-Lite"... it adds a bit a spice and imagination to a night of beer and munchies... or in my case maybe a good fat glass of wine.

Hmm... maybe that should be ale and mead instead? Nah... the stouter stuff would just make it harder to keep track of other adventurers.

ameritrasher said:

ameritrasher said:

Not with the quest cards obviously as you said since they are new, but with adventure, spell,treasure and purchase cards and the various ending in 2nd edition.

IMHO the quest is not public knowledge in Talisman since the Warlock does not have a minister to make public announcement in the city block yet as would be done for a king's declaration, these are handed privatly between the warlock and the character themselves.

After reading some quest, they look more like secret mission to be done by a single character thus the hidden card to keep your agenda and bluff other character if possible into spending effort and spell to stop you.

Cheers

JCHendee said:

Thanks for the reply JC. I can see the appeal of having hidden objects but for me this would be a real nightmare. Sometimes it's hard enough to remember all the effects on my cards and keeping them turned down would make it even harder. I remember one time in the dungeon I kept using the fate stealer sword when I should have used an axe that gave me plus 3 against goblins, especially during a fight agains the goblin king!

I don't like having to play a memory game mixed in with Talisman, probably because I am horrible at it

Thanks for the list Jon!

I was not going to buy this expansion, but after reading the card-list I am definitely getting it! (I may skip Warlock Quests, but will experiment with alternate endings)

Why am I so excited? The fact that Toadings will become much more common. (I like fate for its illusion of greater control/strategy, but I hate how it nearly always allows people to escape toadings)

ameritrasher said:

That is a worthwhile point and problem - with two exceptions. First, you only really need to remember the ones you have readied when you get taken by surprise. Second, some other players have stated the same thing... when they are hauling around a mule train hoard! I have no sympathy for them.

And I too have occasionally forgotten a thing or two in my equipment. But that usually happens when I don't take the time, given opportunity by the rules, to double check. I couldn't pull out a different weapon when I get jumped. But if I saw someone close by at the end of my turn who had a severe advantage over me by Natural Strength or Craft and readied equipment and Followers, I certainly check by equipment. I make sure I'm balanced between general readiness and the ability to deal with that other adventurer.

If I'm definitely going after someone on my next turn, or a face up Enemy, I sacrifice general readiness for readying exactly what's best to get my target. Even in this, the reality of the game still has the god's eye view in knowing who is where. And there's still the potential of getting a nasty surprise myself, if like that Prophetess, my target might have something up his or her sleeve... or in that bag of carrying!

That object, with our rules, is not more potent in mechanics, but it certainly makes others think twice. A couple of times a low powered character has actually bluffed off a powerful one by placing three collected face down Adventure cards in the bag. Only later did we learn they were worthless in Battle or Psychic combat, but that special tactic was enough to keep the bullies at bay until that character absorbed a couple more Strength points.

And this approach is not for everyone. I don't think any of us using these house rules are advocating them for general use. Even in my own group, we only use them when the gathering involves the hard core, long time Talismaners. When more than two newbies or young ones are in the mix, we pare down the house rules and play much closer the standard ones... with the except of using the True Fate system.

Is there in Frostmarch any cards which good or bad character can not have due to his Alignment? To sum up all the previous cards I think that there are better objects for the bad ones. Additionaly bad character can easily replenish fate which is difficult for good ones - there is no place on the board to do that. Life can be heal in many places - at least there is reason to spend a gold . I think that to balace it game needs some nice stuff for good characters. How Frostmarch refer to the Alignment?

There is a "Grail"- Chalice of Shadow - for Evil Characters that is a water bottle and gives +1 to S.

Also, there is a Celestial Bauble for Good, which grants auto-win against any Enemy in psychic combat.

So, as for now, Bauble is useless and Evil still has easier to play.

There is a Chalice of Shadow for evil characters.

Celestial Bauble is for good characters

PS: It's a shame that FGG has not include the Neutral alignment yet ( except starting characters who begins with a neutral alignment)