I'm in the 'can shoot at instigator' camp, but I'm less adamant about it than usual.

I'm pretty solidly in that camp myself, but I'm also not looking to drag that whole steaming pile of mess over into this thread, so I just want to know what to expect before I go to play a game that it's gonna come up in.

So, which interpretation have people been playing with on the Instigator + Heavy question? That Instigator forces you to shoot at heavy squadrons before itself, or no? Has anyone run into this in this tournament yet?

I ask only because it's definitely going to come up in my game against Clontroper, and I would really rather not have to roll off on a rules interpretation that FFG is dragging their feet on answering...

I did run into it and we used "must shoot squads if able ruling" with like 4 or 5 spectators agreeing

0.o That's more consensus than that entire thread has managed to muster...

So, which interpretation have people been playing with on the Instigator + Heavy question? That Instigator forces you to shoot at heavy squadrons before itself, or no? Has anyone run into this in this tournament yet?

I ask only because it's definitely going to come up in my game against Clontroper, and I would really rather not have to roll off on a rules interpretation that FFG is dragging their feet on answering...

I did run into it and we used "must shoot squads if able ruling" with like 4 or 5 spectators agreeing

The many are often wrong

Instigator --> Must shoot at squads --> HEAVY squads --> You don't have to shoot us (if you don't want to), shoot the big nasty ship instead!

Seems pretty straightforward to me, barring a slightly clumsy wording

Okay guys, let me cut this off here. Sorry, I really don't want to be the one to degenerate the tourney thread into the shitshow that Rules Questions thread became.

Biggs, would you mind making a ruling on this ? My Jan Ors and Clontroper's Instigator with TIE escorts are looking to play on Saturday, so no rush.

Okay guys, let me cut this off here. Sorry, I really don't want to be the one to degenerate the tourney thread into the shitshow that Rules Questions thread became.

Biggs, would you mind making a ruling on this ? My Jan Ors and Clontroper's Instigator with TIE escorts are looking to play on Saturday, so no rush.

Where is FFG!? I mean, it's the frikkin World Cup!!!

Seriously. This is srs bsnz.

Btw, this is the vlog with said agreement on the subject: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zg4hnmtkzrrhxr3/GWS%202016%20CLONTROPER5%20VS%20ICT%20REBELS%20BWINGS.vlog?dl=0

My opponent only really disagreed at first because he thought the title was Impetuous

I originally went with "must shoot at squadron" when I played Clone without any argument, but I'm leaning the other way now. The wording on Heavy is so cut and dry I find it hard to argue. A heavy does not prevent you from shooting enemy ships. So I think how I would come down on Instigator is you can't move because of the title, but heavy squadrons don't prevent you from firing at Instigator itself. The fact that heavy's wording includes the term "engaged squadrons" swayed my opinion.

I originally went with "must shoot at squadron" when I played Clone without any argument, but I'm leaning the other way now. The wording on Heavy is so cut and dry I find it hard to argue. A heavy does not prevent you from shooting enemy ships. So I think how I would come down on Instigator is you can't move because of the title, but heavy squadrons don't prevent you from firing at Instigator itself. The fact that heavy's wording includes the term "engaged squadrons" swayed my opinion.

IMO it boils down to this:

Instigator = does not prevent you from shooting at the ship

Heavy = does not prevent you from shooting at the ship

Sum = you're not prevented from shooting at the ship

But I'm not entirely sure. Between 95-99% maybe

I originally went with "must shoot at squadron" when I played Clone without any argument, but I'm leaning the other way now. The wording on Heavy is so cut and dry I find it hard to argue. A heavy does not prevent you from shooting enemy ships. So I think how I would come down on Instigator is you can't move because of the title, but heavy squadrons don't prevent you from firing at Instigator itself. The fact that heavy's wording includes the term "engaged squadrons" swayed my opinion.

but the most important thing is not heavy, but rather the 2 "Ghost squadrons" that interact identically to real squadrons in every way (regarding engagment) EXCEPT they cannot be shot at, therefore allowing squads to shoot instigator unless there is another squadron engaging them regardless of what that squad is or does

But the ghost squads don't prevent you from shooting at the ship, do they? Not if your only squad targets are ghosts or heavies. But yeah, this is why I'm not entirely, 100% sure.

I originally went with "must shoot at squadron" when I played Clone without any argument, but I'm leaning the other way now. The wording on Heavy is so cut and dry I find it hard to argue. A heavy does not prevent you from shooting enemy ships. So I think how I would come down on Instigator is you can't move because of the title, but heavy squadrons don't prevent you from firing at Instigator itself. The fact that heavy's wording includes the term "engaged squadrons" swayed my opinion.

but the most important thing is not heavy, but rather the 2 "Ghost squadrons" that interact identically to real squadrons in every way (regarding engagment) EXCEPT they cannot be shot at, therefore allowing squads to shoot instigator unless there is another squadron engaging them regardless of what that squad is or does

But the ghost squads don't prevent you from shooting at the ship, do they? Not if your only squad targets are ghosts or heavies. But yeah, this is why I'm not entirely, 100% sure.

Bye them selves they do not since they are not valid targets and thus the attacking engagement rules stop applying. But as soon as you add a valid target that part of engagement reactivates so to speak

This be where we disagree, as I feel the Heavy...but we already know that

For the purpose of the WC Biggs should make a ruling, one way or other other. But it would be nice for FFG to reply on this one.

IMO, tournament precedent has been set, and should stand for the remainder. Further discussion on this issue should be held in the already existing clusterfu---thread over in rules discussion.

Also, I wouldn't presume to speak for Biggs, but he does seem to take a side in his blog. Heres the post;

http://xwingtactics.blogspot.com/2015/12/faq-and-tournament-update-wave-2.html?m=1

I originally went with "must shoot at squadron" when I played Clone without any argument, but I'm leaning the other way now. The wording on Heavy is so cut and dry I find it hard to argue. A heavy does not prevent you from shooting enemy ships. So I think how I would come down on Instigator is you can't move because of the title, but heavy squadrons don't prevent you from firing at Instigator itself. The fact that heavy's wording includes the term "engaged squadrons" swayed my opinion.

but the most important thing is not heavy, but rather the 2 "Ghost squadrons" that interact identically to real squadrons in every way (regarding engagment) EXCEPT they cannot be shot at, therefore allowing squads to shoot instigator unless there is another squadron engaging them regardless of what that squad is or does

Except we're now in a loop that you're forcing someone to shoot at a squadron that "do[es] not prevent engaged squadrons from attacking ships." Here's how I see the steps:

1) Instigator makes "enemy squadrons at distance 1 are treated as if they are engaged by 2 additional squadrons, even if they are not currently engaged."

2) "An engaged squadron cannot move." from the RRG

3) "When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship." from the RRG

4) "Heavy: You do not prevent engaged squadrons from attacking ships or moving." from the RRG

Instigator prevents movement and forces the squadron to engage the two ghost squadrons. These don't exist, so the squadron can engage Instigator. This is not in dispute. The question is where you resolve heavy. Heavy has always been resolved after the rule forcing a player to fire at engaged squadrons. Otherwise Heavy just doesn't work. As such, I feel since a heavy can't stop you from firing at a ship, and the two ghost squadrons don't exist, you can therefore fire at Instigator.

This is why we need a ruling. Has anyone emailed FFG yet?

I originally went with "must shoot at squadron" when I played Clone without any argument, but I'm leaning the other way now. The wording on Heavy is so cut and dry I find it hard to argue. A heavy does not prevent you from shooting enemy ships. So I think how I would come down on Instigator is you can't move because of the title, but heavy squadrons don't prevent you from firing at Instigator itself. The fact that heavy's wording includes the term "engaged squadrons" swayed my opinion.

but the most important thing is not heavy, but rather the 2 "Ghost squadrons" that interact identically to real squadrons in every way (regarding engagment) EXCEPT they cannot be shot at, therefore allowing squads to shoot instigator unless there is another squadron engaging them regardless of what that squad is or does

Except we're now in a loop that you're forcing someone to shoot at a squadron that "do[es] not prevent engaged squadrons from attacking ships." Here's how I see the steps:

1) Instigator makes "enemy squadrons at distance 1 are treated as if they are engaged by 2 additional squadrons, even if they are not currently engaged."

2) "An engaged squadron cannot move." from the RRG

3) "When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship." from the RRG

4) "Heavy: You do not prevent engaged squadrons from attacking ships or moving." from the RRG

Instigator prevents movement and forces the squadron to engage the two ghost squadrons. These don't exist, so the squadron can engage Instigator. This is not in dispute. The question is where you resolve heavy. Heavy has always been resolved after the rule forcing a player to fire at engaged squadrons. Otherwise Heavy just doesn't work. As such, I feel since a heavy can't stop you from firing at a ship, and the two ghost squadrons don't exist, you can therefore fire at Instigator.

This is why we need a ruling. Has anyone emailed FFG yet?

GUYS, GUYS...

This is handled in the Thread. I've sent the question in. Twice.

- Please, Back to World Cupness

GUYS, GUYS...

This is handled in the Thread. I've sent the question in. Twice.

- Please, Back to World Cupness

Hit them again!

... Every Question we make them stop and answer delays future waves.

Do you want me to be a Monster, GK?

IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT?

YOU WANT ME TO BE A MONSTER?!?!

GUYS, GUYS...

This is handled in the Thread. I've sent the question in. Twice.

- Please, Back to World Cupness

WORLD CUPNESS NEEDS ANSWERS DANG IT!!

Luckily for us we have a T.O. that will get on in a few hours and solve our dispute. In the meantime I was trying to convince my comrades of the truth

Guys. the answer is really simple. The actual wording from the RRG states:

"When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship."

Heavy is still an engaged squadron. Am I missing the question? I think Truthiness has it right, and I don't see how there's any other interpretation?

Guys. the answer is really simple. The actual wording from the RRG states:

"When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship."

"IF POSSIBLE" being the key there.

Guys. the answer is really simple. The actual wording from the RRG states:

"When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship."

Heavy is still an engaged squadron. Am I missing the question? I think Truthiness has it right, and I don't see how there's any other interpretation?

Actually truthiness still has you shooting at the ship. Clearly, you could not handle the Truthiness. (Been waiting forever for a post where I could type that. Day made, Mad out.)

Actually. I've been noodling this. I get the massive confusion now. Heavy is worded poorly.

I actually think I AM on truthiness' side after noodling it out. I think you CAN shoot the ship. But, it is NOT 100% clear.

Okay, I am awake. Let's just see what the thread has....

Okay, here's my ruling for the subject:

Quote from the FAQ:

Squadrons can attack this ship if they are not engaged by an actual enemy squadron in the play area. The intel keyword does not affect this ship’s ability

Based on this wording, I am forced to conclude that if a squadron is engaged by Instigator's two "squadrons" as well as at least one other squadron, they have to shoot that squadron per engagement rules. Also, because Intel does not affect the ship's ability, those two "squadrons" do not have Heavy and still force shooting at other engaged squadrons, even if those other squadrons also have Heavy .

My thought process on how Heavy interacts with the process is as follows:

1) I want to perform an attack on a ship with my squadron

2) Is my squadron engaged? -> No? Attack any ship in range.

3) Yes, it is engaged. Are all the squadrons it is engaged with Heavy ? -> Yes? Attack a ship.

4) Nope, at least one squadron isn't Heavy . Are there any Escorts ? -> Yes? I have to attack an Escort .

5) No escorts. Are there any valid squadrons to attack? -> Yes? I have to attack a squadron.

6) No valid squadrons? You don't have a valid squadron attack, and the rule's wording is that you have to attack a squadron if able, so attack any ship in range.

When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

On an unrelated note, the first Quarter-Final Preview is now up.