It takes 10 years to build a Lunar cruiser at a primitive world with no high-end Forgeworld facilities.

And yet that is the only mention of a ship taking that short a time. It'd be believable if it was a repair or retrofitting of a salvaged ship, but otherwise it's rubbish, compared to the rest of the setting fluff on ship construction.

Before the Rogue Trader RPG book there has not been many stories about spaceship construction. Dismissing a prime example from the first lorebook (BFG rulebook) on spaceships in the 40k universe as rubbish is quite odd to see.

Oh, I am not overrating the WoT, I'm reading it from the material I have.

edit:

The Tau Empire re-designed their fleet within 256 years. And they build numerous vessels between the Damocles Crusade and Taros Campaign. Compared to the Imperium they are quite small, yet more effective in resources I imagine.

It has been stated more then once that the Lunar is easy to build in a short time span on worlds with already little facilities.

horizon said:

And there are plenty of other references that state that it takes decades or even centuries to build ships. The reference in question is also sparce on details - all it mentions is that the primitives on that world sent raw material into orbit. It didn't mention what kind of ship-building facilities were in orbit, whether components were shipped in from other worlds etc. For all we know there was a massive ship-manufactorium in orbit, being supplied by a dozen worlds.

Decades - centuries is the established fluff.

horizon said:

The Tau empire has a far more advanced economy than the Imperium, with far more efficient and productive manufacturing capabilities. They can probably churn out dozens of vessels in the time it takes the Imperium to build 1.

horizon said:

Okay, here's some information from Lexicanum:

A Rogue Trader is a combination of freelance explorer, conquistador and merchant. They are Imperial servants, given a ship, a crew, a contingent of Marines or Guardsmen and carte blanche to roam the worlds beyond Imperial control.

It says "given A ship" not " a fleet of ships".

And a little further down in the same article we can read:

Some Rogue Traders are relatively poor, possessing a single ancient and dilapidated ship. Others are incredibly wealthy and powerful and have whole fleets and entire private armies at their disposal. Certain favored individuals may even call upon detachments of Space Marines having entered pacts with individual Chapters. Some Rogue Traders operate as mercenaries, renting the service of their ship(s).

This just confirms my point that far from all Rogue Traders have entire trading fleets at their disposal. Of course, you can "refuse to believe" as much as you like, but that's what lexicanum says, and the writers there tend to be some of the most nitpicky and fluff-versed people ever, going through tons of GW publications and correlating the information.

If it comes to choose between your personal interpretation and the stuff written over at lexicanum, I'll rather go with lexicanum.

Here's the article if you'd like to read it yourself:

wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rogue_Trader

horizon said:

Yet again I must cite the particular instance from Lexicanum:

While cruisers are still particularly complex, it is not uncommon for them to be constructed on smaller forge worlds or any civilized world that has a shipyard suitable for constructing vessels of their size. Of particular note was the Lunar cruiser Lord Daros, constructed in orbit above the feral world of Unloth in eleven years by relying on the forced labor of most of that planet’s population for materials.

Hence it was created in orbit, and you can bet your ass they had a shipyard facility in high orbit. The only notable feature of this instance is the fact that it was constructed with the help of a feral world which is rather unusual, but the only thing that the feral world really contributed was the raw materials. We don't know anything about how effective the shipyard in orbit was, and I'd estimate that it was a pretty productive and high end kind, since feral worlders aren't known to be able to process raw ore into pure metals needed for starship construction. Hence this orbital facility would have to have access to and advanced and fully functional foundry and refineries. I'd go so far to say that the shipyard in question would probably have to be even more advanced and productive than shipyards in orbit above even many hive worlds and forge worlds, because these worlds are usually able to mine and refine minerals themselves and can provide readily available materials for starship construction in contrast to feral worlds.

Varnias Tybalt said:

It also took the entire population.

Taking lexicanum for truth is same as taking wikipedia for truth and nothing but the truth

Ah well, I seem not to be able to sway your opinions around on this subject. It must be a delight for you that on Warseer I am taking the position you are taking here. I'm playing devil's advocate on both sides so to say. The more I do the more people start to believe in their own 'right'. Which is funny.

I think the middle ground lies somewhere in between to my own beliefs. Same as a Lunar being 3000 or 5000 metres. It was Xisor who introduced the following (according my knowledge) at the Black Library forums: 'A Lunar can be 3000 or 5000 metres depending on which world it was build. Being a 'Lunar' is the capacity / 'stats' a ship has within the Imperium and not the exterior design.'

Oh, I do want to apologize for one remark I made earlier on the page:

Oh, I am not overrating the WoT, I'm reading it from the material I have

Quite pedantic and much to harsh.

ps....my Rogue Traders have fleets.

horizon said:

No, there is a slight difference. The main being that wikipedia deals with real issues, and if you read something there which later proves to be false it could have real reprecussions depending on what you do with the information. Lexicanum deals with a fictional setting that doesn't have any major impact on reality at all.

But the relevant issue for this thread would be the fact that anything written on lexicanum can still trace it's origins to an absolute authority on the matter (namely Games Workshop), unlike wikipedia, where articles run a high risk of being influenced by the authors personal opinions and views.

Quite simply, if something on lexicanum is questioned one could always check up on the relevant facts in a Games Workshop related publication and correlate that with what's written in the article.

Hence, going with what's written on lexicanum over what ONE PERSON on a messageboard says, would be appropriate and it is a far cry from believing everything you read on wikipedia.

Just sayin'

Now with that out of the way, if you want Rogue Traders to have fleets, then go ahead, I won't stop you. But in the canon setting, far from all Rogue Traders have fleets. Some of the more successful and really old dynasties do, but not all of them. So we're gonna have to come to terms whether we're going to discuss your personal interpretation of the setting or the more canon and established setting.

Uh what?

Since short we have the newest canon on Rogue Traders...the Rogue Trader RPG core rulebook. In that book is a chapter, XII, ROgue Traders. Now, throughout it all it says fleet and fleets. Now read 'Trapping of Powers' on page 329. It says that a Rogue Trader may be given a ship if he ain't got one alrady, often a cruiser.

keywords:

may=thus there are Rogue Traders who don't get a ship. But most will, and a bunch already have.

often=quite a lot, frequently

Then it goes on saying that the Rogue Trader gains frigates and escorts.

Then it goes on saying that the Rogue Trader gains dozens(!) of cargo vessels.

This is the canon. Established by FFG in Rogue Trader RPG, sanctioned by GW. Now don't come with arguments that BL novels have Rogue Traders with 1 ship since Black Library novels also have cruisers much smaller and with less crew.

Also, imagine the new player getting into 40k through Rogue Trader.

horizon said:

Yeah, well the game also states that you start with 1 ship. Then again, you also get ship build points, so I suppose if you have enough you could start with more then one ship. So if you happend to have 70 ship points, you could have 2 Jericho-class pilgrim vessels and a Hazeroth-class pravateer. Of course they are just hulls, engines and a few basic comforts and nothing special about them. But I guess, technically its a fleet.

Yeah, that brings us back to the inititial thread title by thread starter. The 'Game' is 'smaller' then the 'Background' provided in the same book. Few posts ago I gave my personal 'view' on the reasons for this.

horizon said:

Well, if you want to discuss recent canon, then let me quote MY warrant of trade, as it has been given by Fantasy Flight Games to me for purchasing a copy of Rogue Trader Collectors Edition. Here it goes:

Warrant of Trade

Resolved henceforth in the name of the Most Beneficient God-Emperor of Mankind, the High Lords of Terra grant this Warrant of Trade to:

Cyrus Simeonovich DeBarren (not my real name, but it doesn't matter)

And to all of his line, from this day unto the end of time.

The Bearer of this Warrant of Trade is granted tjhe inalienable right to go forth beyond the sacred borders of the blessed Imperium, to contact such benighted civilisations as he may encounter, and to make war for the glory of the Emperor as he may deem necessary. By the authority of the Senatorum Imperialis, this Warrant places the Bearer as a peer to the greatest powers of the Imperium, inter alia: Imperial Commanders, Chapter Masters of the Adeptus Astartes, and the Holy Orders of the Emperor's Inquisition.

The authority this Warrant grants begins where the Imperium ends. Beyond the extent of Imperial rule, the bearer of this Warrant speaks with the voice of the Emperor Himself.

It is the bearer's right and responsibility to claim whatever worlds, resources, or privileges he may obtain in any manner he chooses.

By writ of Seal of Holy Terra

It doesn't say squat (no pun intended ) about:

Also, the Bearer of this Warrant shalt recieve a fleet of starships to aid him in his endavours and to do with whatever he pleases. etc. etc.

Which can only be interprated as a few things. Either the Rogue Trader has inherited his Warrant of Trade from an older relative, and thereby probably also inherited that older relatives ships as well, OR has the wealth and means to acquire one or several starships of his own already, only that the person in question previously lacked the sufficient rights to go beyond imperial borders.

But, according to newer canon there is NOTHING saying that the warrant of trade autmatically comes with some complementary starships as well. It is most likely either something the Rogue Trader inherits or will simply have to acquire on his own accord. Hence why the starship a Rogue Trader begins with is so very much dependant on starting profit factor.

And I warn you from arguing against this. I have a Warrant of Trade to wave in your face!

horizon said:

Well the new player will most likely have been in contact with television shows like Star Trek, Firefly, Lexx etc. etc. where the main cast are almost always just aboard a single vessel and not an entire fleet, so the transitional intepretation to my (and the others) proposed idea of the setting will most likely be the probable one for new players.

Of course, this presents issues all in it's own since 40K doesn't have much to do with either Star Trek or Firefly, but I'd still bet two cents and a couple of grams of pocket lint on that most players unfamiliar with the premises of the setting will see Rogue Trader as "Star Trek and/or Firefly in WH40K".

P.S Then again, my complementary starship for my Warrant of Trade might just be stuck in transit.

We all know how slow UPS can get, so just imagine how long it would take for them to ship over all the parts for my severely pimped Reliquary of Mars Sword class frigate, with a teleportarium and a storage filled with murder servitors in cryo stasis...

Wella,... I didn't understand the point you made in the top part of the post but since it is Warrant of Trade...

But :

But, according to newer canon there is NOTHING saying that the warrant of trade autmatically comes with some complementary starships as well. It is most likely either something the Rogue Trader inherits or will simply have to acquire on his own accord. Hence why the starship a Rogue Trader begins with is so very much dependant on starting profit factor.

Why are you negating the chapter I put forward?

It does appear to me that a Rogue Trader that operates only a single escort ship - rather than a small fleet centered around a cruiser - is the exception rahter than the norm. In it's own way, this is RT pulling a DH nerfing on us. We wanted to play Inquisitors and their inner circles of hardcore Acolytes but instead we were given disposable wanna-be Acolytes. We wanted Rogue Traders with cruiser flagships and an escort fleet, but instead we (typically) get one little escort. I can have fun with either game as written, but they are both nerfed from what the fluff of the 40K universe leads us to expect.

HappyDaze said:

Not really. In the 40k fluff RTs are usually depicted having only one ship. Yes, we hear a lot about powerful Rogue Traders with massive fleets of ships - but that's because those RTs are powerful, famous and influential. For every one of those there are clearly dozens of RTs with a single ship to their name.

Have you read the posts above? Just being curious here...

horizon said:

Yep. And I repeat: 40k fluff depicts RTs as having one ship far more often than having 2+. Rogue Traders with massive fleets are a rarity, not the norm.

horizon said:

I checked chapter XII, but as you might now it is a pretty text filled chapter. Could you please quote the exact passages and page number where it says that a warrant of trade automatically grants a Rogue Trader a fleet of ships?

macd21 said:

I agree with this. Pretty much every Black Library novel I've read portray Rogue Traders as usually having a single vessel (albeit rarely just an escort vessel, but rather a cruiser or a massive cargo hauler) and not entire fleets.

Umm... in RT the players start out as a "new" Rogue Trader. That's why they start with only a single ship. It's like D&D characters starting with basic equipment, rather than backpacks full of magic items. It is something players gain through roleplay as the game progresses, not something a normal starting RT has available.

You know, they could have a fleet without having a fleet.

It's mentioned a lot that their PF is, in part, an extension of their holdings and their vast network and dynasty chock full of servants and underlings all busy doing things for the dynasty. These seem to be above and beyond the crew of the RT's ship, especially when you consider there'd be other members of the Dynasty, siblings, cousins, you name it and I'm sure not all of them are in the RT's ship or wallowing on some dirt-ball somewhere. They might have ships too but a lesser roll in the dynasty such as ferrying goods from point A to point B and back again to keep maintaining that PF of 50 that the RT and his boys like to throw around now and again.

Just because their Dynasty has a fleet doesn't mean it should be with the RT at all times. Besides, if the RT can run Endeavors strictly in the background while he and his boys go off and do something else, it stands to reason that the underlings sent to accomplish the background endeavor might have lesser vessels of their own to get the job done. Granted, i haven't read the entire book nor do i remember much of what I've read so far, but from what i can recall, i can't see what the above couldn't be the case.

As for the granting of a ship with the character issue... really, i think it's more of a non-issue. If every RT that gets a charter gets started with a solid gold cruiser with chasser lights and a diamond encrusted dash, then the PC's grate grate grate grate grate grate grate grate granddad could have had that cruiser. Then he got more ships for the dynasty and started that fleet that's described above before he, or one of the many descendants between the PC RT and the original RT who earned the Warrant, disappeared/was blown up/ sold it during hard times/lost it to the ad-mech/lost it in a Heretics Wake game/gave it to the matriarch and now the daughter who isn't the PC always inherits it's helm/gave it as a "gift" to an Inquisitor/turned it into a massive cargo vessel that's needed to ply a certain line to maintain those 40 PF points the RT started with/or God-Emperor knows what else. Just because one of the PC's ancestors got a certain ship doesn't mean, for what ever reason, that's the ship the PC is now tooling around in is the original ship.

Grashnak said:

My players have no "mooks" among the 20k+ souls aboard thier ship. Every crewman is the very best at what they do. Unfortunately, no one aboard is as good at anticipating Eldar battle tactics, deciphering ancient star charts, navigating warp storms, or out-brutalizing orkz at thier own game then my players. The "highly trained specialists" our trader has hired are the best money can buy... at assessing reams of leave forms and purchase orders!

How many crew served under Russel Crowe in "Master and Commander..."? Would he have better served them by staying in his cabin and filling out paperwork?