Thought -- perhaps "unschooled" shugenja should have the option of having no affinity and no deficiency.

Affinities and deficiencies are on the list of mechanical elements I may or may not continue to include. :-) In 4e they're one of the primary methods of distinguishing one shugenja school from the next; if schools have five techniques, that's less necessary. I haven't yet decided one way or another.

Minor Clan Schools having three techniques as compared to the Major Clans having five was a first edition feature. Even then it was the bushi who got techniques, the shugenja got spells but not techniques. That was part of their balance.

...

I'm thinking for "self-taught" shugenja, they're not really self-taught, they're taught by the kami themselves. This might lead them to having some archetypal abilities, ones that ask the kami to do things they want to do anyway, like burn things for fire kami, movement for water ones, etc. Since these techniques haven't been refined by centuries of practice, like the clan techniques have, there might be some random element to them, to reflect their unreliability....

The "taught by the kami" stuff is what I was thinking of when I said they might have free access to spells, just with no techniques. Order shugenja could have a single technique, which gives them a leg up on the self-taught kind, while still putting them well behind clan schools. And that makes it *way* easier to design ronin orders, since you don't have to come up with five ideas, only one. (On a similar note, I'll admit I'm contemplating giving Minor Clan schools only three techniques, which I believe was the case in an earlier edition? Not sure which one; 3e revised is the only one I've got on hand. Otherwise it's going to be bloody hard to give them each a unique flavor.)

Maybe give the ronin shugenja more freedom, but less sophistication? Like, they can ask the kami to do normal things (make that wet, carry this sound, burn that, bury this, etc etc.) without needing specific spells, but make the more complex things require the spells and techniques of a Clan's school?

The "taught by the kami" stuff is what I was thinking of when I said they might have free access to spells, just with no techniques. Order shugenja could have a single technique, which gives them a leg up on the self-taught kind, while still putting them well behind clan schools. And that makes it *way* easier to design ronin orders, since you don't have to come up with five ideas, only one. (On a similar note, I'll admit I'm contemplating giving Minor Clan schools only three techniques, which I believe was the case in an earlier edition? Not sure which one; 3e revised is the only one I've got on hand. Otherwise it's going to be bloody hard to give them each a unique flavor.)

Hmm. So you're OK with ronin and minor clan schools being weaker than great clan ones? Or will there be some other balancing mechanic in play?

Will clan shugenja also learn their spells from the kami? If not, it doesn't really solve the "If ronin can learn X from the kami, why can't I?" problem you're likely to get from clan shugenja players.

I think at this point it will be more useful for me to start posting actual mechanics than to keep discussing hypotheticals -- not because there's anything wrong with the latter, but just that until I have details in front of me, I don't really know what answers will look reasonable. :-) I'm about to travel a bit, though, so it may be delayed.

Fumi -- I am definitely okay with ronin mechanics being weaker. Not sure about Minor Clans; limiting them by straight-up technique count is on the table mostly because coming up with five unique things for them to do that are useful but not too useful to firewall off as being available only to those nine Monkey Clan shugenja in existence is going to be hard.

I think at this point it will be more useful for me to start posting actual mechanics than to keep discussing hypotheticals -- not because there's anything wrong with the latter, but just that until I have details in front of me, I don't really know what answers will look reasonable. :-) I'm about to travel a bit, though, so it may be delayed.

Fumi -- I am definitely okay with ronin mechanics being weaker. Not sure about Minor Clans; limiting them by straight-up technique count is on the table mostly because coming up with five unique things for them to do that are useful but not too useful to firewall off as being available only to those nine Monkey Clan shugenja in existence is going to be hard.

Once we've reached a critical "splat count", I'm not really all that concerned about a little overlap / repetition.

Both evolution and invention tend to get to the same result repeatedly, after all.

Okay, here's the first component: Divine Favor. This is based heavily on Mirumoto Saito's "Appeasement" system from the old boards, which I've been using in my Togashi Dynasty campaign; having playtested it there, I've made some alterations.

***

DIVINE FAVOR

Religion in Rokugan is no mere matter of superstition: the influence of the Celestial Heavens is unquestioned, and samurai and peasants alike regularly pray to their Ancestors and to the Fortunes for blessings.

Favor

Earning Favor
A character may earn points of Divine Favor through acts which are pleasing to a Fortune, ancestral spirit, or Elemental Dragon. Earning Favor requires some effort appropriate to that entity, followed by a roll of Lore: Theology / Void to earn one point of Favor. The more significant the effort, the lower the subsequent TN: a minor effort carries a TN of 30; a moderate effort is TN 20; a major effort is TN 10. Each Raise called on the roll confers an additional point of Favor. If the character belongs to the family (not simply the clan) of the ancestor spirit they are trying to please, or has a blessing from the relevant Fortune, their TN is 5 lower. A character may also attempt to solicit Divine Favor with no effort at all, though a single, heartfelt prayer; this has a TN of 40. (If the GM wishes to tell a story in which this kind of thing is more common and available to ordinary characters, they can permit players to spend as many Void Points as they wish on the roll.) Any Favor gained in that fashion must be spent before the end of the day, but once spent, it automatically generates an equal number of points of Wrath from an opposing entity (see below).

Characters may possess points of Favor from multiple entities at once, though none of these entities may be direct rivals. The total amount of Favor a character may possess at once is equal to their Void + Insight Rank. The Enlightened Advantage causes Void to count double for this calculation. Every Spiritual Advantage the character possesses increases their limit by one, but every Spiritual Disadvantage decreases it by one.

Example: Doji Arihime wishes to gain Benten’s approval. A minor effort could take the form of half a day spent in meditation and prayer, but it could also involve an act such as carrying a letter to someone’s lover or donating at least one koku to a temple of Benten. A moderate effort would involve several days of prayer, a dangerous tryst, or a larger donation. A major effort might be a week of constant prayer, acting as a nakodo (go-between) for a marriage of love, or ongoing financial patronage of a temple. Truly epic acts, such as becoming a monk in service to Benten, eloping with one’s true love, or founding a new temple require no roll; they immediately bestow Favor up to the character’s current limit.

Spending Favor
Points of Divine Favor may be spent like experience points, purchasing a temporary benefit such as an Advantage or a single rank in a skill, or temporarily negating a Disadvantage. Spending these points is a Free Action, and the effect lasts for one scene. It is possible to spend Favor to receive multiple benefits in a scene, but if the character is in combat, only one benefit may be triggered each round.

Favor can only be spent to gain benefits that suit the nature of the entity bestowing the blessing. (Benten’s Favor cannot be spent to gain a rank in Heavy Weapons; Matsu’s Favor cannot be spent to suppress the Brash Disadvantage.) Blessings that seem borderline may require an additional point of Favor, at GM’s discretion.


Wrath

Generating Wrath
Just as a character’s pleasing actions may earn them Favor, their offensive actions may generate Wrath. The GM determines what events qualify, but examples include open blasphemy, causing bloodshed on temple grounds, or taking direct action against the blessings bestowed by a Fortune (such as poisoning someone who is Blessed by Jurojin or destroying the happy marriage of someone Blessed by Benten). In these cases the GM determines the amount of Wrath generated, based on the severity of the incident. Praying for Divine Favor without making an effort beforehand also provokes an equal quantity of Wrath, as the character’s plea disrupts the balance of Tengoku. Failing a Divine Favor roll by 10 or more generates one point of Wrath, plus an additional point per increment of 10 by which the roll fails. There is no limit to the amount of Wrath a character may bear at once.

Spending Wrath
Wrath is spent in the same manner as Favor, but it is in the GM’s control. Wrath may be used to suppress a PC's Advantage, bestow a Disadvantage, reduce their skill rank by one, or grant a temporary benefit to an NPC opposing the character. The same limitations apply, however; only one Wrath effect may be triggered per round, and it cannot be used to create an effect that does not align with the entity’s nature.

Reducing Wrath
Characters may attempt to reduce Wrath by suitable acts, as if they were gaining Favor instead. The TN for reducing Wrath, however, is 5 higher: TN 35 for a minor act, TN 25 for a moderate act, and TN 15 for a major act. Wrath cannot be reduced without some kind of prior effort. If the character fails the roll, they gain an additional point of Wrath instead.


Location

Spiritually powerful locations may make gaining Favor or reducing Wrath easier. Praying in a major temple to Bishamon, for example, might reduce the TN by 5, while Bishamon Seido itself might grant a Free Raise or an additional point of Favor. Conversely, it is difficult to gain Favor or reduce Wrath in profane locations, raising the TN by 5 or more.

***

For anyone who's wondering, there are two major alterations from Saito's approach:

1) I removed the element where all uses of Divine Favor automatically generates Wrath. In actual practice, I've found this discourages players from using the system at all; plus it makes for some annoying book-keeping on the GM side, as I have to decide on an appropriate opposing entity every time, then keep a record of the quantity of Wrath and remember to use it at some appropriate point. And it makes sense to say all that preparatory effort helps balance things out in advance. If players over-use the system without Wrath to deter them, though, you can always raise the TNs to make it harder.

2) I added in an option for a heartfelt prayer without prep, as it seems like the kind of thing people might want to do at dramatically appropriate moments. Kept the auto-generation of Wrath, though, because if you're trying to yank on the sleeve of Tengoku like a panicking toddler, somebody's gonna get annoyed. :-)

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't bother coming up for mechanics for Monkey shugenja, or other really rare groups like that. They probably don't have dedicated schools anyway.

I've always assumed that in situations where a low-shugenja minor clan finds itself with a shugenja-capable kid, they pull some strings and get them educated by allies with more experience in such matters. So in my campaign, a Monkey shugenja might have a Scorpion or Seppun sensei, and use those mechanics. Alternatively, they might go to the school of another minor clan, let's say the Dragonfly, and in exchange the Monkey will train up some bushi for the Dragonfly.

Another possible route would be to make one "Minor Clan Shugenja" school that the minor clans maintain together. It would lose a lot of flavor, admittedly, but the players might prefer that over a mechanically weaker school.

Fake edit: Looks good so far. Just to be clear, does the "you only have until the end of the day to use it" rule apply to all favor, or only the favor gained by a no-prep, TN 40 prayer?

Just the non-prep kind.

There's something that worries me about the mechanics you describe and the flavor you seem to be pushing towards. At the moment, you are emphasizing divine favor and the idea of religious, priestly conduct. Moreover, you are entwining the shugenja with prayers to the Fortunes and cementing them as the guardians of Rokugan's religion. I have a simple question about that which I would like you to consider.

What divides the role of the shugenja from that of the monk?

From the very first paragraph on religion and philosophy in Rokugan, the 4e handbook states that the Brotherhood of the Shinsei maintains and upholds religion in the setting. They have orders that align themselves with the Tao, the celestial hierarchy, the veneration of heroes and ancestors, and even specific Fortunes. Monks dedicate themselves to these chosen teachings, gaining wisdom and enlightement in the process. The role of the monk gives them a unique position in the celestial order, almost entirely outside the normal heirarchy yet still deserving respect. They are the guardians of the religion, they bring the wisdom of the Tao, and they work towards the balance of the spiritual and the material.

So I'd like you to consider....are you trying to make a monk who casts spells?

Keep in mind, shugenja are samurai. Valuable spellslinging samurai, but still samurai, part of the normal celestial order. Monks are the ones who occupy a unique position specifically because they are the religious foundation of Rokugan. And one of the reasons that this works so well is because it emphasizes how the spiritual order is so much higher than mortal affairs.

The section on religion spells out the long heirarchy of celestial beings, flowing down from the Sun and Moon, the Great Fortunes and Elemental Dragons, the hundreds of Lesser Fortunes, the founding Kami, elemental dragon spirits, phoenix spirits, and then the elemental kami who inhabit the world. So when you say that shugenja are praying to the Fortunes...keep in mind that the school of the Thousand Fortunes has monks devoting their entire lives to the principles of a single fortune. If anyone should be gaining divine favor of a Fortune, it's them.

But they don't, not beyond their minor kiho. That's because the Fortunes are cosmic, and mortals are insignificant. It's not that the higher beings aren't worshipped. It's that worshipping the higher beings isn't going to give you +1k1 on a skill check, because they are way, way beyond mortal ken. Part of the setting's flavor is that the individual samurai is a small part of a greater whole. If you can pray to a Greater Fortune and receive a direct buff in return, it takes away from the vast division between the minor mortal and the cosmic being. The reason shugenja talk to kami isn't because the Fortunes aren't worthy of worship, but because only the kami consider a minor shugenja worthy of their time.

So I'd caution you against trying to turn the shugenja into, for lack of a better analogy, a DnD cleric. "Pray to a cosmic being and gain a buff" has a vastly different flavor from speaking with the spirits who make up the world. Even if it's a flavorful matter, dragging the cosmos down to the level of normal samurai takes away from the grand mysticism of the celestial order. Likewise, allowing the shugenja to appeal directly to Fortunes and the like really calls into question how monks could be considered the caretakers of religion in Rokugan.

There's something that worries me about the mechanics you describe and the flavor you seem to be pushing towards. At the moment, you are emphasizing divine favor and the idea of religious, priestly conduct. Moreover, you are entwining the shugenja with prayers to the Fortunes and cementing them as the guardians of Rokugan's religion. I have a simple question about that which I would like you to consider.

What divides the role of the shugenja from that of the monk?

Frankly, I think the setup for L5R makes answering that question a mess. If you didn't have Fortunist orders of monks, then it would be easy to say that monks = Buddhists who contemplate the Tao in search of enlightenment, while shugenja = Shinto priests who interact with the supernatural entities of this world and others. But L5R takes the syncretism that happened in historical Japan (where you had Shinto shrines on the grounds of Buddhist temples and Shinto kami being mapped onto various boddhisatva) and muddies the waters even more, to the point where people straight-up do not agree as to whether monks are, as you phrased it, "the religious foundation of Rokugan," or whether they're a bunch of ascetics who sit in monasteries contemplating their navels and rarely do anything the wider world at all. When I wrote monk stuff for the later 4e books, I responded to the near-total lack of material depicting shugenja as priests by writing about monks taking a more active role in advising samurai and so forth; then I got pushback from players who said that was wildly inaccurate because monks almost never get involved in samurai affairs and it's a shugenja's job to do that kind of thing. So while you may view monks as being the primary go-to group for religion in Rokugan, that isn't a view shared by everyone in L5R, and both sides can cite evidence to support their argument.

*Somebody* has to be the religious authority for the samurai class. For the purposes of this redesign, I am taking the position that shugenja occupy that role -- which means they are the leaders for *all* the religious affairs samurai engage in, whether those involve elemental kami, Fortunes, ancestors, or what have you. Monks, by contrast, will (in this redesign) be the people who learn to develop their innate gifts, as represented by kiho, because they're trying to master themselves and reach enlightenment.

So I'd caution you against trying to turn the shugenja into, for lack of a better analogy, a DnD cleric.

I'd rather they look like D&D clerics than D&D wizards. I don't want to rehash the arguments from the giant shugenja thread -- in fact, I would ask that people take this discussion back over there if they wish to pursue this point further, since otherwise this thread will get derailed very fast -- but under their current mechanics, they look much more like wizards than priests to me, summoning fireballs and building giant walls of stone out of nowhere. So long as shugenja = priest -- which is what the fluff has called them, time and again -- I want them to feel priestly, and furthermore I want them to feel like the historical Asian model of priest. Which means fewer fireballs and walls of stone, more talking to the spiritual entities worshipped in the setting.

"Pray to a cosmic being and gain a buff" has a vastly different flavor from speaking with the spirits who make up the world. Even if it's a flavorful matter, dragging the cosmos down to the level of normal samurai takes away from the grand mysticism of the celestial order.

I disagree, profoundly -- starting with the fact that your phrasing assumes a distinction between "the spirits who make up the world" and "cosmic beings." My entire point is to say there *is* no such distinction. Furthermore, I feel very strongly that the "grand mysticism of the celestial order" is rendered flat and banal by the idea that Fortunes and such almost never intervene in the world, even in the smallest of fashions, but shugenja can send elemental kami to reshape physical reality whenever they please. The game will feel *more* mystical to me if shugenja magic is tied in with Tengoku and Yomi, if the elemental kami are the servants of higher powers, and if ordinary people can, with the proper reverence and some knowledge of theology, occasionally call on higher powers to aid them. Obviously I can't persuade you to see it my way -- but it sounds like we're looking at the same goal, and just have diametrically opposed notions of what will serve that goal.

Frankly, I think the setup for L5R makes answering that question a mess.

*Somebody* has to be the religious authority for the samurai class. For the purposes of this redesign, I am taking the position that shugenja occupy that role -- which means they are the leaders for *all* the religious affairs samurai engage in, whether those involve elemental kami, Fortunes, ancestors, or what have you. Monks, by contrast, will (in this redesign) be the people who learn to develop their innate gifts, as represented by kiho, because they're trying to master themselves and reach enlightenment.

"Pray to a cosmic being and gain a buff" has a vastly different flavor from speaking with the spirits who make up the world. Even if it's a flavorful matter, dragging the cosmos down to the level of normal samurai takes away from the grand mysticism of the celestial order.

I disagree, profoundly -- starting with the fact that your phrasing assumes a distinction between "the spirits who make up the world" and "cosmic beings." My entire point is to say there *is* no such distinction.

I'd like to clarify something in regards to these two points. I agree with you that things are a bit of a mess, and that the combination of the Shinto and Buddhist ideals doesn't always work. But I think the divide between shugenja/elemental kami and monks/fortunes is worth preserving for a simple reason.

Hierarchy is huge in L5R. The celestial order is written into the basic fabric of reality, and Rokugan society is a mirror of that order. A ji-samurai does not speak with the Emperor. Heck, they don't even talk to a standard magistrate without miles of red tape. While the lowly samurai certainly venerates the Emperor, that's entirely different from actually calling upon royal favor. The Emperor, daimyos, samurai, and bonge are a parellel to the Sun and Moon, Fortunes, dragons, and kami. So there may not be a distinction between the cosmic beings and the worldly spirits from the perspective of their importance to the world, but there is a huge distinction in terms of the celestial order.

So a simple reason for shugenja talking to kami is this; they are speaking within the same heirarchy. A low level shugenja is the spiritual equivalent of the ji-samurai, useful to the world, but generally beneath the notice of anything that shakes the world. Higher tiers of shugenja begin to consult with the lesser dragon and phoenix spirits as peers, representing a higher position in the celestial order, and begin to compell masses of elemental kami rather than individuals. But I would assert that a shugenja personally calling upon the attentions of a Greater Fortune in order to cast a level 1 buff spell is the equivalent of a courtier asking the Emperor to loan the party some horses. There is such an enormous gap in the celestial order between them that it makes no sense for them to speak without multiple intermediaries, and the result is so far beneath the notice of a cosmic power that it's practically an honor loss to ask.

The second reason I'd assert why shugenja work just fine on the "mortal" level of spirituality is that shugenja wage war.

Like all samurai, shugenja are beholden to their daimyo and their clan. This means that they can and do oppose one another on the field of battle. Each shugenja can be drawing upon the power they have available and invoking the kami to smite their foes, even if they are on opposite sides of the conflict. Compare that to the Brotherhood of Shinsei, who are supposed to be finding an enlightened path to a higher purpose. While it is certainly true that two monks can face off in combat (kung fu demands it!), the goals of the monastaries rise above such conflicts towards a tranquil existence.

There is a parellel here between the lower and higher spiritual concepts which is vital for the setting. The samurai constantly feud with one another, the shugenja can smite each other with all the fury of fire and wind, and the elemental kami bicker with one another as they clash in every wave and windstorm. But on a higher level, the Emperor and imperial families strive for the good of the entire realm, the followers of Shintao seeks enlightenment and tranquility, and the supreme powers of the cosmos maintain all of reality. The higher principles are harmonious, the lower echelons are wracked with discord.

Ergo, I'd say that there's nothing wrong with the shugenja working with the elemental kami. Those are the forces that they can compel and later command in the celestial hierarchy, and they share a common bond as creatures beholden to greater powers. This means that shugenja are the experts in "wordly spirtuality", magic that is close to earth and relevant to daily lives. This doesn't mean they can't be priestly. Calling the rain to help crops, delivering babies safetly without complications, chasing away lingering ghosts, and empowering samurai to fight oni are all very spiritual matters. Meanwhile, it preserves the role of the monk as someone seeking higher truths which are beyond the grasp of mere mortals. A monk of the thousand fortunes may never receive divine intervention, but the wisdom they gain may help them advise others to walk a better path or grant them insight into enlightenment.

The rare and dramatic intervention of a Fortune is fine. But something that high on the celestial order should be as rare in a campaign as the direct intervention of an imperial champion, because that's the parellel on the celestial order.

The second reason I'd assert why shugenja work just fine on the "mortal" level of spirituality is that shugenja wage war.

If you search the enormous shugenja thread, you'll find the post where I laid out how the text tells us, time and again, that shugenja do NOT wage war -- that the few who do are seen as an anomaly. Now, do the fictions and the mechanics give us the exact opposite picture? Yep. But given a choice between mechanizing shugenja as engines of war, and mechanizing them as spiritual leaders, I choose the latter.

I explained my reasoning rather thoroughly in the original post of this thread. I don't particularly feel like repeating it.

Ergo, I'd say that there's nothing wrong with the shugenja working with the elemental kami.

I never said they weren't working with the kami. I said those kami are part of a greater system -- a celestial order, if you will -- whose parts are not firewalled off into separate categories; they are linked, as all things in existence are linked.

This means that shugenja are the experts in "wordly spirtuality", magic that is close to earth and relevant to daily lives. This doesn't mean they can't be priestly. Calling the rain to help crops, delivering babies safetly without complications, chasing away lingering ghosts, and empowering samurai to fight oni are all very spiritual matters.

You seem to think that what you just described is stuff my approach will not permit them to do. Read the first post: this is exactly what I want them to do. What I *don't* want is for them to be war machines that leave bushi in the dust.

We could keep going in circles on this, so let me just say: I am happy with my conception of what I'm trying to do. I'm not interested in making shugenja operate the way they currently do; we have those rules already, and they don't do what I wish they did. It's clear you aren't on board with what I'm trying to create, and that's fine. You don't have to use these rules.

After taking some time to consider the thoughts in this thread, and the setting more generally... I think I'm ok with where this is going. I still don't think the kami need to be treated as conduits for the Fortunes, but I concede that Kinzen's rework of the theology makes sense, and coherency is a good thing. The most important thing is that shugenja mechanics reflect their role as priests, and the kami (and other spirits) are treated reverently, rather than as tools. Whether that is achieved by increasing the emphasis on their own power and sanctity, or by treating them as extensions of a larger and even more awe-inspiring world of higher beings, matters relatively little, as long as the fundamental 'priestliness' of shugenja, and their position as supplicants rather than masters, is clearly established.

I also like the Favour/Wrath system. I think it would be nice to incorporate specific bonuses to interacting with particular groups - for instance, a Lion with Lore: Ancestors (or an Ancestors Emphasis for Lore: Theology, whatever you decide the relation should be) could get a bonus to seeking the favour of a shiryo, while a Phoenix with a Lore: Elements (or, again, an Elements Emphasis) could get a bonus to seeking the favour of a Dragon - for me, that would help reinforce the fact that different people do venerate particular groups more than others, and encourage people to specialise in their knowledge. But mechanics, as I have repeatedly said, are not my strong point, so it's just a thought.

Either way, I will continue to follow this thread with interest, and look forward to seeing what comes of it!

And now for purity!

A couple of notes first. To begin with, this is still very much in a draft state. Probably what I'll do is get some shugenja mechanics in place, then come back and look at this and see what parts of it I want to change. Second, if the list of taboos looks odd to you, that's because I wound up hybridizing Buddhist (celibacy! but corpses are okay!) and Shinto (you can marry! but no corpses!) concepts. :-P Third, my goal here is to keep this as simple as I can without sacrificing the core flavor: if it gets too complicated, people won't use it.

(That last part's the hard bit.)

***

SPIRITUAL PURITY

If Bushido is "the way of the warrior," Spiritual Purity is "the way of the priest." Certain activities pollute the soul in a fashion quite separate from dishonor, and individuals who engage with the Heavens on a daily basis do their best to avoid these. The Spiritual Purity system provides a way to model this difference. Based on their habitual behaviors, characters fall into one of three tiers:

Purified
Unless specified otherwise, this is the default state for shugenja and monks.

Characters at this level of Purity habitually observe a number of taboos: they restrict themselves to a vegetarian diet, avoid shedding blood or coming into contact with blood or dead flesh, refrain from drunkenness, and do not engage in unlawful sexual activity. (Many monks take vows of celibacy, but not all; those in service to Benten are often married, and shugenja, of course, are expected to carry on their lineages.) Observance of these taboos cleanses their spirits and makes them better able to carry out their duties.

* TNs for spellcasting, kiho activation, and Divine Favor are unaffected
* +1k1 on non-Low social rolls with entities from Tengoku or Yomi and Influence rolls against other spirits
* TN to feed this character with a Survival roll is increased by 10

{1} I'm still working on the phrasing, modeling what ought to get a bonus without making it too complicated overall.

Neutral

Unless specified otherwise, this is the default state for courtiers and artisans.

Characters at this level of Purity lead ordinary lives, neither observing most taboos nor engaging in particularly defiling activities. They eat meat, drink to excess, and engage in sexual liaisons with individuals other than their spouses, but they still avoid blood and dead flesh.

* TNs for spellcasting, kiho activation, and Divine Favor are increased by 5
* no benefit or penalty on social rolls with spirits

Defiled
Unless specified otherwise, this is the default state for bushi and ninja.

Characters at this level of Purity are polluted by their duties and their habits. Not only do they eat meat, become drunk, and conduct sexual affairs, but they regularly shed blood, which defiles them in the eyes of the Heavens. Anyone at this level of Purity has great difficulty engaging with the spirits.

* TNs for spellcasting, kiho activation, and Divine Favor are increased by 10
* -1k1 on all social rolls with entities from Tengoku or Yomi, and -1k1 when resisting social rolls from slaughter spirits or gaki{2}

{2} That last bit is pure handwaving, pending me figuring out just what I want to do with those creatures. I think some of them ought to be able to induce bloodthirst/hunger in their targets, though, and Defiled characters should be more vulnerable. I might just write that into the creature ability descriptions, though, if I get that far.

Temporary Changes in Purity

It is common for small events to temporarily change a character’s level of Purity. (Long-term changes are discussed below.) Sometimes this takes the form of a violation of taboo; at other times, a character may undergo some effort to purify herself, especially in preparation for some religious ceremony. The following are some representative examples of situations that might case a temporary change in Purity, or correct for a change once it has occurred.

* falling from Purified to Neutral: eating a dish with meat in it; shedding blood or contact with blood (including being within 5 ft. of melee combat) {3}; drunkenness; sexual misconduct
* falling from Purified or Neutral to Defiled: contact with a corpse; killing; contact with an eta
* rising from Defiled to Neutral: bathing; water purification at a religious site; blessing from a shugenja
* rising from Defiled or Neutral to Purified: fasting or vegetarian diet for a period of several days, accompanied by meditation and prayer

{3} This is another bit I might fiddle with. But since I'm intending to shift the focus of shugenja combat spells away from damage and onto buffs/debuffs, this reinforces the idea that they are not expected to be squishing their enemies or wading into the thick of combat.

Long-term Changes in Purity
The default states given above describe the habitual behavior of a character. In order to make a long-term change to their Purity, the character must make a long-term change to their behavior. Falling from a higher state to a lower one is relatively easy, but climbing up to a less polluted level is often difficult, as it requires avoidance of things that may be a common part of the character’s life.

Anyone wishing to play a character who does not match the expected level for their type may take an Advantage (for an increase in Purity) or a Disadvantage (for a decrease). These can be taken at character generation, but may also be purchased in play. Regardless of timing, GMs and players should remember that these states are dependent upon the character’s behavior. If a Purified courtier is engaging in an affair and regularly getting drunk with his fellow samurai, the GM may rule that he loses the benefits of his Advantage, and must work hard to earn it back.

Cleansed (Spiritual, variable points) — Courtiers/artisans and bushi/ninja only. Your character shows great respect for the Heavens, and strives to avoid behaviors which would pollute their spirit. A courtier or artisan who spends X points on this Advantage is considered Spiritually Purified, but must follow the taboos expected of shugenja and monks, or risk temporary or even permanent loss of this Advantage. Bushi and ninja who spend Y points on this Advantage are considered Spiritually Neutral; they may still engage in warlike duties, but must go to great lengths to cleanse themselves on a regular basis, as compensation for the pollution of their lives. Bushi and ninja who spend Z points are considered Spiritually Purified, but this state is all but impossible for them to maintain: they may not kill, and must cleanse themselves immediately after shedding blood, in addition to following the other taboos expected of shugenja and monks. Only characters whose duties involve very little combat may take this level of the Advantage, for example those assigned to temple guard duty, or yojimbo for other samurai who face little danger.

Polluted (Spiritual, variable points) — Courtiers/artisans and shugenja/monks only. Your character has little concern for the state of their soul, and regularly engages in activities which lower their level of Spiritual Purity. A courtier or artisan who takes the X-point level of this Disadvantage is considered Spiritually Defiled, whether because of frequent bloodshed or simply such an intense degree of worldly behaviors that the stain on their spirit runs deep. A shugenja or monk who takes the Y-point level of this Disadvantage is considered Spiritually Neutral; they may be a meat-eater, a drunkard, a lecher, or someone else fallen from spiritual grace. A shugenja or monk who takes the Z-point level of this Disadvantage is considered Spiritually Defiled; they show very little respect for the Heavens, and suffer great spiritual weakness as a result.

***

I figure that certain shugenja or monk schools will get a technique that mitigates the effects of pollution: the Tamori, for example, ought to be able to wade into a fight without immediately screwing themselves over when it comes to spellcasting. But we'll get to that when I finally get to picking techniques. :-)

Are you married to having this system map to L5R as published by AEG?

I mean, if you're seeing internal contradictions from the Shinto and Buddhist definitions of purity, why not... focus on one or the other, instead of justifying why they have to be both?

I think "sex defiles you (unless with your spouse)" is silly and leading down a road that probably won't end anywhere good. Effort to make sure Spiritual Purity is really obviously unrelated to "Chiristian-influenced morality like the kind you see all the time in your Western society" is probably effort well spent.

Are you married to having this system map to L5R as published by AEG?

I mean, if you're seeing internal contradictions from the Shinto and Buddhist definitions of purity, why not... focus on one or the other, instead of justifying why they have to be both?

I think "sex defiles you (unless with your spouse)" is silly and leading down a road that probably won't end anywhere good. Effort to make sure Spiritual Purity is really obviously unrelated to "Chiristian-influenced morality like the kind you see all the time in your Western society" is probably effort well spent.

The caste system of Rokugan is based on the Edo-period system, that was largely a deliberate mashup based on cherry-picked Confucian, Buddhist, and Shinto concepts. There's a lot of cultural mashup in Rokugan, and while it has a veneer of authenticity to the real world... it's best not to go digging of you want to maintain that illusion.

So you have to ask yourself if you want to stay true to the Rokugan that many players have genuinely come to love, and ignore the issues, or if you want to make something more authentic to its real-world inspirations. I don't think there's a perfect answer, and I find myself torn between the two every time I start looking at some aspect of the setting or the RPG.

If you wanted to go full-Shinto, we'd need to get into concepts such as tsumi, kegare , and musubi .

Are you married to having this system map to L5R as published by AEG?

I mean, if you're seeing internal contradictions from the Shinto and Buddhist definitions of purity, why not... focus on one or the other, instead of justifying why they have to be both?

I personally enjoy using historical Japan as my model for Rokugan, at least to a certain degree, and in historical Japan, Shinto and Buddhism smashed up against one another in all kinds of not-entirely-congruent ways. Since Rokugan obviously draws on both sources (Fortunes = Shinto; Tao = Buddhism), I'd rather not chuck either one here.

I think "sex defiles you (unless with your spouse)" is silly and leading down a road that probably won't end anywhere good. Effort to make sure Spiritual Purity is really obviously unrelated to "Chiristian-influenced morality like the kind you see all the time in your Western society" is probably effort well spent.

It isn't actually derived from Christianity. Buddhist priests being celibate is definitely a thing; on the Shinto side, well, I'm AFB right now, but A Year in the Life of a Shinto Shrine talks about one of the priests at the shrine abstaining from relations with his wife for a period of time before an important ritual, although it is not considered strictly necessary. The most accurate-to-source approach would probably be to go with the temporary abstinence approach, but that would be a pain to handle in-game; ergo, it's easier to do it this way. But I'll note it isn't just sex with your spouse; an official concubine would be perfectly okay.

Now that I am ensconced at my in-laws' and have internet access again, I'm going to move on to the next bit of this. :-)

For the foreseeable future, my approach is going to be to try and sort out what kind of flavor I want to create; once I have a good-sized body of that in place, I'll start working through the question of what mechanics will implement that flavor in a reasonably balanced fashion. Before I do that, though, I decided it might be good to make some explicit comments about the current mechanics, and the current state of my thoughts on them.

1) Elemental connections. I'm almost certainly keeping this, for the aforementioned reason that the game is called Legend of the Five Rings . I'll note for posterity, though, that I think you could implement this pretty well without that linkage and the elemental kami as intermediaries.

2) School affinities/deficiencies. Might not keep this. In 4e, at least, those are one of the major points upon which the school flavors get differentiated; with five techniques to play with, though, that becomes much less vital. We'll see.

3) Mastery level. Inclined to keep this. But I'm strongly considering having a particular group of spells that upgrade automatically as you increase in school rank; it has the merit of eliminating a bunch of the redundancy in the current spell list (where Spell B is just a better and more difficult version of Spell A). If I do that, I'll implement something to make such tiered spells more "expensive" to take than the one-off type.

4) Spellcasting roll. Shriketalon had a good point in the other thread about how, when you get down to it, skills are not actually relevant to shugenja doing their main schtick, which makes them radically different from all other character types. (Spellcraft is the only one that affects your roll, and then only if you buy it up to 5.) I'm considering whether spellcasting rolls should use different skills depending on their purpose. It has conceptual merit -- but if the kept half is still Ring, then shugenja are an XP sink compared to courtiers and bushi, because they have to buy lots of skills and *both* Traits to improve. So I don't actually know. But I'm pondering it.

5) Keywords. Maybe? Their main function in 4e was to interact with the "you get a Free Raise on X keyword" portion of the school techniques. With the techniques made more specific and unique, keywords may end up being redundant. That's definitely a lower-priority question for now.

6) Spell slots. Let's face it; this mechanic exists purely for game balance. The idea, from D&D days, is that the spellcaster can do much more powerful things than the fighter, but they run out of steam more quickly. That can work in D&D, where the assumption is that the party will encounter multiple combats per day . . . but that isn't true of many L5R games, which means spell slots only rarely become a limiting factor. Now, on a conceptual level I think they can be better justified in L5R than anywhere else I've seen: the kami get annoyed if you pester them too frequently, and stop listening. :-) But once I have my flavor in place, I'll be taking a good hard look at whether I think spell slots are necessary for balance or not. Maybe I'll keep them for spells, but not school techniques. Maybe I'll skip the slots concept and just have a rising TN for each subsequent spell of that element. Maybe I'll do something else entirely. I have no idea.

7) Speaking of techniques, just to be clear: each Great Clan school will definitely get 5, plus (I'm thinking) 2 spells when ranking up. Ronin orders, if I do them, will probably have one technique plus spells. Haven't decided yet about Minor Clans -- five techs or three, etc.

That'll do for now. In the next few days I hope to post the techniques for a couple of schools, so you can see what kind of thing I have in mind for flavor.

Are you married to having this system map to L5R as published by AEG?

I mean, if you're seeing internal contradictions from the Shinto and Buddhist definitions of purity, why not... focus on one or the other, instead of justifying why they have to be both?

I personally enjoy using historical Japan as my model for Rokugan, at least to a certain degree, and in historical Japan, Shinto and Buddhism smashed up against one another in all kinds of not-entirely-congruent ways. Since Rokugan obviously draws on both sources (Fortunes = Shinto; Tao = Buddhism), I'd rather not chuck either one here.

I think "sex defiles you (unless with your spouse)" is silly and leading down a road that probably won't end anywhere good. Effort to make sure Spiritual Purity is really obviously unrelated to "Chiristian-influenced morality like the kind you see all the time in your Western society" is probably effort well spent.

It isn't actually derived from Christianity. Buddhist priests being celibate is definitely a thing; on the Shinto side, well, I'm AFB right now, but A Year in the Life of a Shinto Shrine talks about one of the priests at the shrine abstaining from relations with his wife for a period of time before an important ritual, although it is not considered strictly necessary. The most accurate-to-source approach would probably be to go with the temporary abstinence approach, but that would be a pain to handle in-game; ergo, it's easier to do it this way. But I'll note it isn't just sex with your spouse; an official concubine would be perfectly okay.

Oh, I know it's not derived from Christianity, but it's close enough to lead to the impression that you can approximate Spiritual Purity by being Christian plus-other-stuff, when I think emphasizing "no this is REALLY unlike the system you are familiar with" is a better idea.

I think "sex defiles you (unless with your spouse)" is silly and leading down a road that probably won't end anywhere good. Effort to make sure Spiritual Purity is really obviously unrelated to "Chiristian-influenced morality like the kind you see all the time in your Western society" is probably effort well spent.

It isn't actually derived from Christianity. Buddhist priests being celibate is definitely a thing; on the Shinto side, well, I'm AFB right now, but A Year in the Life of a Shinto Shrine talks about one of the priests at the shrine abstaining from relations with his wife for a period of time before an important ritual, although it is not considered strictly necessary. The most accurate-to-source approach would probably be to go with the temporary abstinence approach, but that would be a pain to handle in-game; ergo, it's easier to do it this way. But I'll note it isn't just sex with your spouse; an official concubine would be perfectly okay.

Oh, I know it's not derived from Christianity, but it's close enough to lead to the impression that you can approximate Spiritual Purity by being Christian plus-other-stuff, when I think emphasizing "no this is REALLY unlike the system you are familiar with" is a better idea.

Hello,

I am actually with Huitzil37 on this one. I like the alien moral concepts that make Rokugan, and also the idea of monks, and why not shugenja, being extremely moral characters, but of their own accord. If a monk decides to make a vow of celibacy, poverty or silence that ought to be one's choice, a chosen path of life that reflects one's view on human morals. I fail to see how a Kami or kami, (let us not talk about Fortunes, especially romantic Benten) would be offended by someone committing adultery or being filthy rich/poor; I believe (K/k)ami would despise such behaviour as human, and not just Rokugani, something they would never fully understand not being human themselves.

Also, in Kinzen's example, the priest chose to do something that was unnecessary, because he felt that he had to do so, not because he was compelled to do so. As an example, Christian priests or nuns all have their own way of living their faith: some choose poverty, some go to restaurants, some choose loneliness, some choose to go out and talk to people, some are silent listeners, some just quote the Bible, some share their experiences. They are all celibate because the Church asks for it, but they have freedom on how to express other tenets of Christian faith.

Real life religious people are as diverse as everybody else in their actions and views of the world, and obey to another set of rules while following their own moral codes. In L5R, Bushido, even if it means the Warrior's Way, is a set or rules followed by every samurai, be they Bushi, Ninja, Shugenja, Monk, Courtier or Artisan. However, and I truly support this idea, Kinzen, you are creating another set of rules applying to everyone but mainly to Shugenja and Monks; quite similar to how religion applies to everyone at its core (DEFINITELY NOT WANTING TO DERIVE THE TOPIC, simply stated all religions are at their base principles for a peaceful life). While Bushido applies to every samurai, as Law applies to every citizen, Spiritual Purity applies to every samurai too but focuses on a certain group, because of their choice of life. Yet, if this second set of rules include both "Blood" and "Sex" (just to summarize) it feels more constraining than necessary to every character, and their players.

Limitations on moral behaviour being stricter but different from what we are used to, in life and in most games, is a huge part of Rokugan's flavour. However, as a player, it is utterly hard to integrate why a character should act according to what seems Christian morality when the setting does not enforce it, as it depicts monks who did not vow celibacy, and even more so when dealing with alien beings that have no concept of sex. On the other hand, defilement by blood, sweat and war is easily understandable, because it part of the long-time established Rokugani disgust of anything bodily, and goes against harmony.

In a nutshell, players may feel estranged by the idea that free sex is such a big no-no because it is too familiar to them, unlike how refusal to come in contact of blood and sweat seems genuinely different and new.

Re: Keywords- another major benefit of Keywords is that it enables you to skim over a list of spells/prayers/whatever, and pick out the ones that are most likely to be suitable for your character (so a Tamori can look for Battle keyword prayers, a Soshi can look for Illusion keyword, and so on). Even if they have no mechanical value in a reworked system, which sounds perfectly reasonable, the inbuilt categorisation of prayers still has some value, and should be replicated in some manner (even if that's just by organising prayers within Element and ML according to their field of applicability, or something along those lines).

Otherwise, all your thoughts seem good.

Purity =/= morality. Lying doesn't make you impure, but it makes you immoral. Having sex doesn't make you immoral, but it makes you impure. The concept of purity is more about withdrawing from the world of fleshly existence so as to better harmonize with the world of the spirit.

Idanthyrsus, good point. One of the possibilities I'm considering is to say that (for example) the Soshi techniques are illusion-based -- but maybe I don't want illusions to be solely a thing the Soshi do, because I also think the Kitsune should have some abilities in that area, and maybe it should be possible for at least some illusion-type prayers to be available to other schools, albeit at higher cost. I thought it would be simpler to keyword those prayers "Soshi, Kitsune" and then say they cost more if your school isn't one of the ones named . . . but although it would be slightly more complicated to instead keyword them "Illusion" and write something into the Soshi and Kitsune schools that says they get those spells cheaper, it might be more informative for the player. I'll keep that in mind when I get to that stage of the process.

See, this is what I don't get. Sex leading to impurity makes perfect sense in a setting where anything bodily is a slide down impurity road; heck, it might even explain why shugenja are so rare (you can't really increase your numbers if you don't reproduce). However, I fail to understand why the world of spirit would make any kind of distinction between regular spousal sex instead of "sexual misconduct", and would give a pass for the former. It seems they would only be interested in the frequency of sexual intercourse, not with whom they are performed.

Don't get me wrong, I actually love your ideas and praise your work, as you are doing a **** fine one so far at entangling the mess that shugenja- and court-related issues. I just have a problem with this particular item.

Sorry for the long silence; I was traveling for the holidays, and keeping up with my actual professional work left me with very little brain for anything other than mindless tablet games. :-P

Kuroniten -- you're right that it isn't entirely sensible, but unless I want to change the setting to say that shugenja are supposed to be celibate (which I don't, because then I'd have to seriously revamp the notion of "shugenja families" and other associated fluff), I have to allow for the fact that they're having sex sometimes. Since making players track how long it's been since their PC got laid and whether they've purified themselves since then sounds like far more of a pain than it's really worth, this is the best compromise I can come up with -- barring just dropping that element out entirely, which I might do. But I feel like that's a significant enough component that I should keep it in somehow, so it's clear that dallying with prostitutes and such is considered the kind of worldly thing shugenja aren't supposed to do.

<shrug> It's imperfect, but I'm okay with that.

Anyway, I've started poking at the actual spells, doing the first stages of reorganizing some of them into school techniques. This is a remarkably instructive process: you don't realize how much sheer repetition there is in some types of spells until you start lining them up together as possible school techs. None of them are identical, but many of them are so similar that they really only provide the illusion of variety -- and then in contrast, you have other things that just get knocked off with a single all-purpose spell. (Five different Water spells to affect your movement in combat, but only one that buffs Perception, which does so as a blanket effect without distinguishing between Investigation and Hunting and Battle.) My husband made a spreadsheet of all the spells ages ago, for reference purposes; I made a copy of that, and have gotten as far as pulling spells out of the full list into tabs for each school, so that I can see what my options are for the different concepts. But now I have to make actual decisions: which illusion spells should be the characteristic techniques of the Soshi school? Should I rework the Symbol spells to be different ranks, and use those as the bulk of the Yogo techniques? (There are other kinds of warding that will be universally available.) And so on and so forth. It may take me a while to do even one of these; my money is on either Kuni or Asahina being done first.