After Joe's X-Wing thread about Luke & R2, I have been thinking about what it would take to make the T-65 competitive again and was curious what the collective wisdom was.

I have become increasingly fond of a Poe/Wedge/Jake triumvirate but the T-70's overshadowing of the T-65, although thematically perfect, has gotten me wondering if there is a reasonable fix. I'm certainly not looking to normalize the two ships as one is obviously an upgrade to the other but given how little competitive play the T-65 sees, there's obvious room for improvement.

The two most obvious things that come to mind are point cost and movement dial. It pretty much goes without saying that they are overpriced for what you get against other comparably priced ships so a card similar to the Chardaan refit from Rebel Aces could make a squad with an X-Wing slightly leaner and allow for more options.

As for the movement dial - it seems strangely constrictive. Not looking for an added Tallon roll, but a Green straight 3, whilst not seeming overly impactful, would play into the idea of the original X-Wing being an advanced fighter.

What else? I know there is always anecdotal "I saw a 33-point Luke take down a Raider all by his lonesome" evidence but if someone can show how they can be argued to be fine and competitive, I'd be interested in hearing that reasoning too.

Thanks!

Didn't MJ calculate that Integrated Astromech with a 1pt mech made it a better jouster than the B-Wing at the same price point?

Just FAQ it to give it boost. There. Fixed.

Not the sort of FAQ they can or are willing to do, and I'm not sure it would fix things.

Didn't MJ calculate that Integrated Astromech with a 1pt mech made it a better jouster than the B-Wing at the same price point?

Integrated Astromech goes a long way towards making the T-65 competitive. I don't see the T-70 as being a strict upgrade over the T-65 so much as an X-Wing that is able to fulfill a different role. The T-65 with IA is a very capable jouster. In my experience, the T-70 works more as a flanker or hunter than an efficient jouster. I am not sure I would describe the T-70 as arc dodger, but the boost and Talon-rolls combine to give the ship a lot of capability to hunt opponents aces or highly maneuverable ships. As a result, I think Targeting Astromech (which allows either X-Wing to keep pressure on the enemy through damage when jousting or Talon-rolling to keep on an enemy) and other future astromechs will allow players to better kit an X-Wing for particular roles that will keep them relevant and competitive.

Well, it may not be the final piece in the puzzle, but after testing it in a couple of games it can make a huge difference to it's survivability.

I guess it all depends on Integrated Astromech actually being released before we declare it Not The Fix. We got Poe before worlds so he showed up twice in the finals. If we had gotten IA we may have seen quite a few t-65s, who knows. And you said competitive, but I'm sure you mean OP. It would take a lot to get generic x-wings to be as OP and sexy as Corran, Poe or even the TLT stresshog. But working an R2 IA rookie or two into a list instead of blues could certainly be a thing. A Targetting Astromech IA Rookiee would be a pretty decent jouster if that's what you need in your list, one point cheaper than Blue with FCS that just melts to TLT focus fire. And an extra one point shield on Biggs would be great! Wedge, Luke and even Porkins could be dusted off again and made relavant. Are they gonna be spammed to death or be the return of the (TIE) phantom? Nope. Will they be at least competitive? I think so.

Not the sort of FAQ they can or are willing to do, and I'm not sure it would fix things.

Maybe. Probably. The X Wing was designed for a completely different game, that just happened to share the same name and dev team. The problem isn't the jousting efficiency, its the lack of reposition or autothrusters, since those things obviously weren't concerns back then. It's got no rol to fill that isn't already covered by something better. At least with boost it would be a cheaper alternative on lists where you're just a few points short for Poe.

With IA 4 T-65 squads are perfectly viable again. I think all the X-wing needs now are a couple more Astros and it's set to fight its way back into the meta. Biggs is going to be so common in the store championship season you'll have to check your calendar to make sure you haven't travelled back to 2013

Not the sort of FAQ they can or are willing to do, and I'm not sure it would fix things.

Maybe. Probably. The X Wing was designed for a completely different game, that just happened to share the same name and dev team. The problem isn't the jousting efficiency, its the lack of reposition or autothrusters, since those things obviously weren't concerns back then. It's got no rol to fill that isn't already covered by something better. At least with boost it would be a cheaper alternative on lists where you're just a few points short for Poe.

I'm so glad Knaves and Blackmoons came with BR, it makes them so competitive. With Advanced Sensors they will be unstoppable!

No, the problem is not lack of repositioning. The new 22 point Rookie wants to focus anyways. Wedge gets BB-8. Tarn and Hobbie have no need either and can very well stay on top via Astromech shenanigans. All these guys just become flat out better with IA. Luke sadly doesn't really have a place again, since Poe does the same thing so much better for only a few more points (4 to be precise). It is a discount that gets you below the 34 point mark of you have to save elswhere if you want 3 ships similar to this, but I am not sure if that is enough to see him sometimes.

It needs something besides an Astromech, because that slot needs to stay versatile.

It needs something to give it better repositioning capability. It's not Soontir Fel, but it's a far heavier starship... What if it could park?

What if it had "Retro Thrusters"?

"When you reveal your movement dial, select any speed 1 maneuver and assign yourself a stress token."

Of course, the problem is, almost anything the T-65 can get, the T-70 can get. So what about something it can't get?

Resistance Refit
All banks and straights up to speed 2 are considered green maneuvers. T-65 Only.

It'd definitely make it one hard to stress fighter. Anybody operating a T-65 would be able to keep their cool and know their ship to stay cool doing such maneuvers anyway- alongside just flat out better engines. The mass and stats stay the same, but the stress put on the pilot/engines changes.

Or perhaps even...

Civil War Veteran
T-65 X-Wing only
Raise your Pilot Skill by 1

This raises Wedge to 10, and Luke to 9. It's a big deal, so it needs to be costed appropriately. But these are people with four more decades of experience flying these ships, so a PS gain makes some sense for these veteran pilots.

It might even be overpowered to combine that with Resistance Retrofit.

But who knows. People seem to think the pivotal ship of XWMG needs a huge buff.

So here it is.

EDIT: I forgot Veteran Instincts was a thing.

And "Retro Thrusters" isn't just Engine Upgrade. It allows you to change your selected maneuver to any 1-speed if it won't work out.

It needs something besides an Astromech, because that slot needs to stay versatile.

It needs something to give it better repositioning capability. It's not Soontir Fel, but it's a far heavier starship... What if it could park?

What if it had "Retro Thrusters"?

"When you reveal your movement dial, select any speed 1 maneuver and assign yourself a stress token."

Of course, the problem is, almost anything the T-65 can get, the T-70 can get. So what about something it can't get?Resistance Refit

All banks and straights up to speed 2 are considered green maneuvers. T-65 Only.

It'd definitely make it one hard to stress fighter. Anybody operating a T-65 would be able to keep their cool and know their ship to stay cool doing such maneuvers anyway- alongside just flat out better engines. The mass and stats stay the same, but the stress put on the pilot/engines changes.

Or perhaps even...Civil War VeteranT-65 X-Wing only

Raise your Pilot Skill by 1

This raises Wedge to 10, and Luke to 9. It's a big deal, so it needs to be costed appropriately. But these are people with four more decades of experience flying these ships, so a PS gain makes some sense for these veteran pilots.

It might even be overpowered to combine that with Resistance Retrofit.

But who knows. People seem to think the pivotal ship of XWMG needs a huge buff.

So here it is.

EDIT: I forgot Veteran Instincts was a thing.

And "Retro Thrusters" isn't just Engine Upgrade. It allows you to change your selected maneuver to any 1-speed if it won't work out.

Insanely buffing (bit of hyperbole there) Wedge because folks don't take rookies very often seems a bit counterintuitive.

Who honestly cares about rookies..?

Who ever really did?

Like, what were they good in..? Wave two?

Who honestly cares about rookies..?

Who ever really did?

Like, what were they good in..? Wave two?

Well in wave 3 a Rookie won worlds. Sure he was just there because there weren't better options to save points, but he still did work!

Who honestly cares about rookies..?

Who ever really did?

Like, what were they good in..? Wave two?

XXBBZ might work, who knows.

T-65 Mk Title, 0 points: Your bar gains the boost action.

That´s all, this would open the door to put autothrusters on Luke Skywalker.

This way Luke paired with R2D2 and autothrusters would be about 34 points (35 with VI) and it would be much more difficult to hit. and also would have better mobility

Given that the 'fix' IA represents is hobbled to taking an astromech, anything that is going to improve the T-65 would likely also be centered around improving the currently (barring the uniques) lackluster collection of rebel trashcans. Uniques currently have more synergy with the named pilots, rather than the generics, so a generic trashcan is where the improvement needs to come. R2 is OK, but both R2 and R5 are far more use on a Y Wing. The T-65 doesnt really need more greens, nor does it really need crit proofing, as it has relatively few hull. R7 is pretty corner case apart from Tarn. TA is also pretty corner case. Hobbie could have some utility with him - although stressbot makes a good (better?) choice for Hobbie. If TA had been another unique, I doubt anyone would have raised an eyebrow.

What the T-65 X lacks, apart from re-positioning, is action economy and a better selection of actions to choose from. It probably doesn't really deserve native boost - given that the T-70 has that now. Barrel roll is possible, evade is also a possibility. But how would it get those? A title seems most likely, or else a droid which granted those abilities in some circumstances (maybe on greens), but then BB8 is already there so I doubt FFG will do that again - heaven forfend an ability becomes useful to more than one faction or ship at a time!!!

A title offers a few options, but it would have to be very carefully balanced and I am not sure how far it could go, given the interaction with all the possible pilot, droid and mod combos out there.

Stressbot does not make a better option for Hobbie, because it really belongs on to a Y-Wing with TLT for one point less, where it wins games. TA gives Hobbie a super k-turn that gives him 2 actions and does not stress him.

In my opinion the beauty of IA is how it not just fixes the X-Wing, but also gives us an incentive to use astromechs that usually don't quite cut it, because at 1-2 points a supershield certainly is fun. Astromechs are now the shield upgrade that also gives you a slight advantage while it is up. It diversifies X-Wings greatly. To now release an astromech which is obviously better than any of the usable old 1-2 pointers would be to make it an autoinclude and kill that diversity right out of the gate.

"When you take a focus action, you may take a free reinforce action."

hey.. an "lets fix the xwing" thread!

great to see, we never had one of these...

*not the droids we're looking for, move along. move along..*

*looks at topic title*

Well, people actually taking it and flying it would probably be a good start.

Being harder to kill is nice but if your opponents are avoiding your arcs because they can boost and barrel while you can't it's mearly delaying the inevitable.

The inability of high ps x-wing pilots to alter position will keep them on the shoreline.

I think the upgrades with the T-70 expansion pack will do it, but if they're not played it's probably more a commentary on the weakness of the 3-die jouster(4BZ) lists in the current meta than anything else.