In the original Rogue Trader, way back in the late Nineteen Eighties. Rogue Trader Captains could demand, and expect to be granted, their own Space Marine detachments. These Marines would then fly the RT's banner and wear his colors instead of those of their founding chapter. Has anyone else considered/discarded/ or played with this idea? It could be an interesting way to cross Killteam and Rt.

I think there's plenty of space marines laying around. Mercs who tried to augment themselves,

failed foundings, disbanded chapters, last survivors, etc. etc.

SMs are the best troops in the galaxy. everyone wants a unit of their own.

Billions of thrones has been spent on research of making more cheaply.

Only the Ad-Mech have the secret and PF to making great ones, real ones.

So in my campaign, there are mercs available who are well nigh as good as marines.

but the cost.... you're asking for a Regiment of Near-Unique, BQ troops.

that's -90 to the PF roll right there.

Unless you have Peer and Good Rep with the right groups,

that might get you a 10% discount.

I'd say "legit" Space Marines are out of the question. Who do you demand them from? Deathwatch does a good job of saying that the Astartes of the Watch can, and sometimes DO take it out on INQUISITORS who "overstep their bounds", and stop "civilly requesting" (read: begging, pleading, and coddling) the aide of the Astartes who serve the Deathwatch, that thing the Inquisition oversees, just not the Astartes there. You COULD have something in your Warrant that ties you to a Chapter, like a notation of brotherhood, and this MIGHT give you some access to them, occasionally, and put you at their disposal, too. There is an Ascension talent called Oathbound to the Angels of Death, or something, that allows Inquisitors and Retinue to make Influence checks with specific Space Marines, after you have earned their respect, to some degree, and I don't see any reason why Rogue Traders couldn't do something similar. In my crazy writing, both of my fleshed out RTs have some relation to a Chapter:

• Aedan Qel-Drake is known to the Salamanders, and his grandfather protected one of their lost ships, helping them reclaim it, decades before. He can't "call in the Space Marines", but he does have the equivalent of one of their Mantles, his taking the form of his long coat. "The Dragon" takes almost any opportunity to reflect his moniker.
• Edric Korvallus actually has a notation on his ancient Warrant attaching his dynasty's fortunes to the Raven Guard Chapter. THOUSANDS of years before, his ancestors worked with the rare Chapter, and they agreed to come to his line's aide. (He has Oathsworn to the Angels of Death (Raven Guard) in his Warrant.) He's never had to call them in, which is good, because they can be hard to get a hold of, but he can ALMOST converse with them as an equal, and projects the kind of character they would respect.

I think another issue might be numbers. It depends, as does so much of 40K's works, on whose doing the writing, this week, but with the number of Space Marines often being depicted as so small, justifying keeping a group on board your ship, for any reason, just seems unlikely, and smacking of twinking. You might have some Ultramarines, or maybe Black Templars, as these two Chapters are frequently described as being more numerous than others, but they are still so often rare.

So, "Space Marine analogues"? Perfectly doable. Gland Warriors, and others, are great examples of lesser organizations efforting to make their own Space Marines, or at least bridging the gap between Guardsmen and Astartes. Their gear might slow you down, once you've already had to pay for their own quality, but Rogue Traders are rich, so...

In my campaign, the players went through heck to find a relic that could answer any question. They wound up using it to help the Blood Ravens discover their Founding Primarch. They were rewarded with a refurbished ship and an alliance with a company of Blood Ravens that is currently stationed on the ship.

The ship being a Murder-class Cruiser formerly of the Warmaster's fleet during the Great Crusade.

Naturally, if there is need elsewhere, a ship will be sent to pick the Blood Raven company up (or the players will be expected to honor the alliance by running taxi)

Ok, thanks for the feedback. I was converting materials and I ran into Tyrel 'Destroyer' Cathek. Tyrel is described as a psychotic, and his retinue consists of around 200 imperial troops(unspecified) and the entire 4th company of the Stone Hearts Space Marines. I then started consider why rogue traders get space marines and what circumstances would warrant it.

Space Marines in the original RT were a different thing. More like the marines from Star Craft: Prisoners and other riff-raff, stimmed up and augmented, sent out to kill.

The whole space-knights with religious orders came later.

I was going to say that Original Space Marines, were close to Heavy modified human gland warriors, then the Space Marines.

with that in mind, we talked about heavy modified human soldiers here in Only War

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/131892-gene-enchaced-guardsman/?p=1409942

I have considered playing a Rogue Trader whose noble parents attempted to 'reverse engineer' a Space Marine to strengthen their line. This of course failed and they promptly sent him to the expanse to cover their tracks.

Easy enough to do with the right backgrounds

False Man

Mutation - Brute

That is probably enough for a failed attempt at a Space Marine. Never got a chance to try it out though.

As for actually assigning a Space Marine squad to a Rogue Trader I could see it happening if the Space Marines owed a big enough favour (say the Chapter was all but extinct and the Rogue Trader recovered a significant amount of the Chapter's gene seed) and I can see them taking up the Rogue Trader's colours so that they wouldn't be identified as belonging to a specific Chapter (don't want to set a president). That said it would be a temporary thing not an indefinite assignment.

Of course there are always neophytes whose implants didn't work quite right and they washed out of the Space Marines. They might be available to hire as mercs.

Secrets being what they are, and stuff, it seems unlikely to me that the Astartes would just let the failed walk. Not saying anything people don't already know, but the Space Marine isn't made over night, or even quickly, and they don't just sleep in Dr. Venture "hypno-indoctrination bed", learning everything in one night. They train, learn secrets, and "grow" as a Space Marine, reaching milestones that are punctuated by the receiving of the next gene-seed organ. If you failed out somewhere, you still know too much about your Chapter, their ways, and maybe even their secrets (I don't know how important you need to be to learn about the Fallen Angels, the Red Thirst and Black Rage, becoming a werewolf, or whatever, but a butt-hurt exile would be a good candidate for smearing bad press all against the organization that picked him out, and then ruined his life. I'd more think they have their Progenoid glands removed, and then become beefier Chapter serfs, or are killed, in typical "grimdark" fashion, but that's just me, of course; like I said, I don't honestly know.

I always thought Animal was a failed Space Marine

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Animal

Procedure likely varies from chapter to chapter but from an old school (and likely not cannon) 40k RPG based on the Warhammer Fantasy 40K game Space Marine was a career choice you could take but at each different level you had to get a new implant with a possibility that your body would reject the implant and you'd no longer be applicable to take the Space Marine career. I always liked that idea.

I'd assume that the conditioning and hypno-indoctrination doesn't contain much of the way of chapter secrets because you want to ensure someone is a full fledged member of the chapter before you tell them anything like that.

Those with 'flawed' gene seeds probably are either killed or studied but those more 'vanilla' Space Marines might be a little more forgiving.

In my game:

A few years ago Hardak Fel happened to find and recover a Marines Errant ship that drifted out of the edges of the Hezeroth Abyss. He recovered some living marines in stasis, stored gene seed from the dead, and a bunch of equipment that would have been otherwise lost. He managed to get a prize crew aboard and get the ship limping back into the Calyxis sector, returning it and it's contents to the Marines Errant. Considering how much gene seed and gear they'd lost recently (relatively speaking) Fel's find could mean the difference between life and death for the struggling but honored chapter.

When the hunt for the Dread Pearl kicked into high gear, with eldar, strange crystaline ships, assassins, more than a dozen competing Rogue Traders, pirates, etc, all coming together into a dangerous mix, and with Fel's original ship shot out from under him by Lord Admiral Bastille, Fel decided it was time to call in his favor.

A company of Knights Errant rode Fel's new ship into the Kronus Expanse, and helped Hardak Fel see the adventure through to the end. They saved his life on the Dread Pearl during a heavy Eldar attack, and helped him claw fortune from hardship.

After the adventure the majority of the Knights Errant were ferried back to their waiting assignments, but one Space Marine stayed with Rogue Trader Hardak Fel, serving as an advisor. The battle brother is being considered for ship command, and service with Fel is seen as a good way to get him some seasoning in shipboard service.

that was great, except for the part where Hadarak seemed not b be a scumbag

I think that is very cool, except for another scenario where the Space Marines have time to do it. When the game can get very vague as to how many worlds there actually are, and how many Space Marines, even the most honorable, and honor-bound, Astartes just don't seem like they should be able to just "pull away" from whatever they were doing, and go gallivanting around the Expanse, carrying Hadarak Fel all around, simply for his profit margin, whether Hadarak Fel is a total knob, or not (usually, he is). Having said that, one supposes that it depends on how you depict the Space Marines, for availability, in your universe. If you have seen the Ultramarines movie, they threw plenty of Iron Fists Astartes at a seemingly nothing target, and they all go aced, with no one seeming to do anything about it, so maybe there could be available Space Marines.

Other than that "personal view issue", very cool. I have often wondered how you could feel that the Astartes, were they actually indebted to you, might do something that actually feels like they are paying you back, rather than just "good job helping the Angels of Death. Hmm, what? A Reward? What do you mean? It was your RESPONSIBILITY to help the Astartes. Your reward is the privilege of having gotten to do so." Much of their gear is cool, but much of it is sized for them, apparently rigged to harm you, if you aren't an Astartes (like a Lawgiver, in Judge Dredd), and they usually just do their own stuff. Nice to find a way.

Actually I've portrayed Fel as a fairly ruthless elder-statesman type, who's neither a good guy or a badguy outright, but straddles the fence. He didn't go to all the trouble of recovering and returning all that Space Marine stuff solely out of the goodness of his heart. Having a Space Marine chapter owe you a big solid is always a wise decision (something that all the thrones in the sub-sector can't simply buy/bribe), and it serves as an “I'm a good guy, really!” counterpoint he can waive about to any less than savory accusations that come his way. Plus helping humanity is just good business.

As for the chapter having time to do it, they owed him a solid and honor demanded they respond in his time of need. I picked the Marines Errant specifically. They're much larger than the standard Marine Chapter, a fleet/space based and specialized chapter, and have reason to be near the Kronus expanse (looking for lost brethren near the Hecaton Rift). They didn't just happen to have a company sitting around doing nothing, Fel's backup ship picked up one squad here and another two there on it's way into the Expanse.

Having said that, one supposes that it depends on how you depict the Space Marines, for availability, in your universe.

I think it's less an issue of availability, and more of a Chapter's personality. It's not like the Space Marines are constantly in action, all the time. Some Chapters do that (the crusading ones, called that for a reason), but a lot of them are perfectly happy just sitting around and honing their skills, until they believe there's a battle worth of them showing up.

Depending on the individual and the Chapter's culture, Chapter Masters can at times be fairly fickle, which is why sometimes they respond to requests for aid, and other times they refuse. Sometimes that is because they can't afford further losses right now, other times just because the Chapter Master is a ****. The 3E Codex Witch Hunters actually had a plot hook where a Witch Hunter army would move against a Marine Chapter specifically because they refused to help in an earlier battle.

Given how an average Chapter's modus operandi has been explained by GW, most of the Reserve companies seem to stay at home, simply supporting the Battle companies with temporary reassignments as those are dispersed all over the nearby systems to patrol the region in their Strike Cruisers, playing firemen to resolve alien incursions much quicker than the Imperial Guard can mobilise. It's a fairly rare case that a Chapter mobilises everything it has, which means you could probably expect them to have at least some guys ready to help out honouring an old debt.

On a sidenote, this quasi-"stay at home" mentality also explains how they are even able to recuperate the losses they incur, as even Space Marines at times have entire companies get eradicated.

I can see that all; it's just the numbers of them, based on various authors. If you only have a million Space Marines, and they often go in groups, how many places can they be? Like I said, I can see it happening, just not easily, and I do like the idea. Just wanted to throw my bit in there. Sort of like how, if you read the book, one of my favorite pistols of choice, the inferno pistol, is described as "perhaps a dozen of the treasures in the whole sector." Still, they are acquirable, and it's a small part of why Aedan Qel-Drake's family has TWO in their possession, though only one is ever in circulation. I am also pleased that he went with Marines Errant, both because they don't get much screen time, as it were, and more because, as was said, they are a predominantly fleet-based Chapter, so it's more in fitting with them.

I rather like the idea, though I'd rarely use it. I prefer the "one riot, one ranger" approach, though in this case it's the one xenos-invasion, one marine approach.

I can see that all; it's just the numbers of them, based on various authors. If you only have a million Space Marines, and they often go in groups, how many places can they be?

Well, as per White Dwarf, the standard Marine strike force is a single Battle Company reinforced by elements of the Reserves acting as support/drivers/pilots. That means with a thousand Chapters, you'd have a maximum of 5.000 patrol groups in Strike Cruisers all over Imperial space, with, say, 3.000 Reserve Companies remaining in the Fortress Monastery. That means ~300.000 Space Marines remaining as able to respond to requests from various people.

Of course that's a bit of an iffy number. Some Chapters are crusading or have deployed all their companies in some major battle and as such won't be able or willing to part with any of their Marines. On the other hand, the titles of the Battle Companies' leaders ("Regent of the Fief" for the 1st Company's captain, "Commander of the Watch" for the 2nd, and so on) also make it pretty obvious that there must be some sort of rotation in their patrols, or that the 5.000 patrol groups mentioned above is a seriously inflated number and a lot of Battle Companies actually remain at home.

The 3E Marine codex featured a detailed listing for the Ultramarines Chapter at 745.M41:

• 1st Company: in Fortress-Monastery
• 2nd Company: sent to Talassar (ongoing mobilisation)
• 3rd Company: in transit to Joran VI
• 4th Company: in Fortress-Monastery
• 5th Company: in Fortress-Monastery (undergoing reconstruction)
• 6th Company: in Fortress-Monastery
• 7th Company: sent to Caeser (serving as honour guards)
• 8th Company: sent to Gava II (extended training)
• 9th Company: in Fortress-Monastery
• 10th Company: in Fortress-Monastery (individual squads reassigned to support currently active strike forces)

The Ultras are just one of man Marine Chapters, but it's easy to see how it should be far from impossible to have some of them available. IF one were to go with GW's descriptions, that is!

Look at it this way: if the Marines were really so busy, they wouldn't be able to respond to so many requests for help as they seem to do in the fluff. It seems a lot of the time they're actually just sitting around, waiting for someone to knock and ask for help.

A Rogue Trader should just keep in mind that any Marines sent as part of a honour deal are quite likely to be recalled, should the Chapter face a crisis that threatens actual Imperial assets "back home"!

Given that there are approx. 5000 sectors, 5000 SM strike groups is pretty reasonable. I think that 5000 is generous, though. IIRC, the 2nd-5th companies of codex-compliant chapters are battle companies. The 6th-9th are reserves. The 1st and 10th generally get parcelled out on an as-needed basis. That already reduces the number of strike forces by 20%, and that doesn't account for non-compliant chapters and those so shot to pieces that they've been withdrawn for reorganization.

Given the glamour of the marine chapters, it's always tempting to throw some into any campaign. I use them sparingly, though, and I always try to give the party reason to want to see them leave.

approx. 5000 sectors

According to whom?

That being said, I'm also of the opinion that not every sector should have its own Space Marine presence, anyways. I rather liked how it was in the Calixis sector originally, where the only things connected to the Astartes were an abandoned Black Templars outpost, and a lone Dreadnought guarding a relic. The Storm Wardens are a cool idea, but I'm not a fan of how FFG has "inflated" the presence of Marines (0 -> 1.000) and Battle Sisters (50 -> 5.000) in Calixis after they took over the setting.

Good point about the 1st Company, though -- I actually forgot that these stay home anyways. Though that actually works even more in favour of my argument, as it means more Marines available to send away.

I also just remembered how big Ultramar actually is. That shines an even more interesting light on how few active strike forces the Ultramarines feel compelled to send out.

Sorry, when I said company I meant to say platoon. It was three squads of marines and a hand full of scouts and support people. I'm just used to talking about companies and squads, since SM's don't nominally have a platoon designation.

approx. 5000 sectors

According to whom?

That being said, I'm also of the opinion that not every sector should have its own Space Marine presence, anyways. I rather liked how it was in the Calixis sector originally, where the only things connected to the Astartes were an abandoned Black Templars outpost, and a lone Dreadnought guarding a relic. The Storm Wardens are a cool idea, but I'm not a fan of how FFG has "inflated" the presence of Marines (0 -> 1.000) and Battle Sisters (50 -> 5.000) in Calixis after they took over the setting.

Good point about the 1st Company, though -- I actually forgot that these stay home anyways. Though that actually works even more in favour of my argument, as it means more Marines available to send away.

I also just remembered how big Ultramar actually is. That shines an even more interesting light on how few active strike forces the Ultramarines feel compelled to send out.

(1 million inhabited planets)/(~200 inhabited planets per sector) = 5000 sectors. I'm just going with oft-quoted figures. I don't own them. Regardless, they are certainly correct within a degree of magnitude.

I like how Calixis was originally isolated, with 400-some-odd unihabited light years between it and the Ixaniad Sector to Coreward. That's like twice the radius of Calixis of emptiness before you run into more Imperium. In fact, I like the idea of most of the Imperium being like that, at least outside the Core.

And yes, Ultramar is huge and sprawling, and probably fields thousands (millions?) of division-sized formations that aren't Space Marines.

(1 million inhabited planets)/(~200 inhabited planets per sector) = 5000 sectors. I'm just going with oft-quoted figures. I don't own them. Regardless, they are certainly correct within a degree of magnitude.

I don't believe that "200" is oft-quoted at all, I only recall the "million worlds" -- and even that must not necessarily be taken at face value, though I would here for the sake of argument.

But are you possibly misremembering/mistaking the "200 planets" with "200x200x200 light years in size", as it says in Battlefleet Gothic (rulebook page 86)?

Then again, it's probably impossible to actually settle on something here, anyways -- stellar density, actual reach of Imperial expansion, so many things that would affect how many planets are in your average sector, and much of it is down to interpretation. Just like the creators intended, I'm afraid.

Unless I'm actually missing out on some sources here, so if you can remember where you may have picked up that 200 number, I'd be grateful!

And yes, Ultramar is huge and sprawling, and probably fields thousands (millions?) of division-sized formations that aren't Space Marines.

Actually, I fear I have to correct my earlier post here -- I think I fell victim to the common fan-belief that Ultramar is huge, when I myself have argued against that based on articles printed in White Dwarf, something I recalled just now...

At least according to GW, Ultramar isn't that big at all, just eight systems with eight (nine before the 'nid invasion) inhabited worlds. Altogether, they are said to have "hundreds" of planetary defence regiments ready to defend the realm or even be sent to assist the Imperial Guard all over the galaxy.

That being said, PDF is something you'd find on just about any Imperial world, not just the ones entrusted to Ultramarine stewardship.

Yep, Papa Smurf and his Ultramarines have a few extra Astartes in their ranks; someone needs to make up for the Raven Guards' decimated numbers, and I am certainly one to ask the Ultramarines to please do so, lest the Blood Angels, or the Space Wolves step up to "what they do", in the Smurf's place. Space Wolves and Black Templar also have a few more than they maybe should, or at least actively obfuscate the number, to keep their enemies even more scared of them.

It might also be a case by case thing, or depending on the Chapter but, for the most part, I assumed that the typical Space Marines Chapter's 1st Company was their Terminators/Veterans which, depending on what they owe, might also be subtracted from what they might willingly spend. i certainly wasn't trying to be overly picky, I just often think of the Space Marines as stupidly rare, in the grand scheme of things, and while I, too, can see some of them sitting around, waiting for something appropriate to their skill set to happen, there never seem to be enough Astartes to go around, in other scenarios, so I was trying to babble how rare the elite Emperor's Angels of Death might seem, compared to any other force you might see. Perhaps my take on them is too narrow, or I don't inflate them, in my head, to represent them as the poster boys for GW, despite also being elite. They seem to like, for me, to illustrate them as rare, till you see one, and then you see 50, and soil your neighbor's drawers. It also depends on if I remember all the "lesser" Chapters, those little offshoots that, if you said there is an Onyx Chimeras Chapter of Space Marines, I'd have to initially say "yeah, there might be." Oh well, keep them sparingly used, and they can be awesome, so I'm good with where we've gotten.

They certainly are rare -- but so is a lot of the things we take for granted. If you'd go by GW's numbers, there seem to be fewer Battle Sisters than Astartes, and I'm sure Rogue Traders themselves are even rarer!

What I'm trying to say is: in a society as hierarchically stratified as the Imperium, "rarity" is something that affects you differently depending on just who you are, and a Rogue Trader who has a Chapter bound to him/her by a honour debt shouldn't have a hard time getting them to show up at least once .

there never seem to be enough Astartes to go around

In part because some of the Space Marines deliberately choose to continue sitting around for a better opportunity to prove themselves, it seems!