I love these rules, and have always felt they could be used for all kinds of games.

A while back, I made my Edge of the Union Western conversion, made a Psionics game I briefly played and beta tested called Edge of the Mind and made a one shot Edge of Sanity game for Halloween.

Quite a while back, I worked on some simple conversion concepts to use the rules in a universal system. This all started with my Down N Dirty Conversion , but over time has turned into something bigger.

Currently I am working on a system that uses a generic system that changes these things:

• Replacing Careers, Specializations and Talent Trees with a generic Talent System.
• Replacing Obligation, Duty and Morality with a Advantage and Disadvantage system that works similar to Obligation and systems like Savage Worlds.
• An free form magic system that combines how Force Powers work with systems like Ars Magica and various Mage rules from World of Darkness.
• A Powers system for low powered Super Heroes similar to the one in Savage Worlds (though, this may be an added later released supplement).

I am opening this thread, because all of you were a great help in my Edge of the Union development and I hope to bounce ideas off everyone.

^{I have to say, your work was a big inspiration for the Edge of the Aquilonian Empire, so I'd love to see what you did.}

^{I look forward to the conversation... and it will only make mine better (while we're at it).}

^{I have to say, your work was a big inspiration for the Edge of the Aquilonian Empire, so I'd love to see what you did.}

^{I look forward to the conversation... and it will only make mine better (while we're at it).}

Thanks a lot.

The real accolades needs to go to FFG. They have made a system that is very easy to gauge difficulty and see things in a visual way without thinking about the math behind a d20 system (while having quite a bit more complicated math technically due to the way the dice work). This has really allowed me to do some things as a GM better than I ever have done. Change the rules, make up powers for NPCs that have no normal game basis and change things on the fly as I see I need fit. This system has actually made me a better Game Master.

It has been a while since we played, and I was talking about a Magic system for a fantasy setting, but that slowly gave away to a Cowboy Bebop altered setting (basically just in our Solar System) game and was just going to use the rules as they are which would mostly work fine... but then I Started going back to an idea I had a while ago, which is more or less Modern Magic setting like the MMO Secret World. This made me go back to both the Magic System I was conceiving and the Generic System... so here we are.

Could you give us more details on the magic system? And how you make talents more universal without trees? Off the top of my head the only thing I can think og is something simular to Dark Heresy 2e's Apptitude system.

Also, I am a big fan of Edge of the Union. I am excited to see this.

Okay lets start talking Magic...

Okay my plan is to lift the basic Techniques from Ars Magica: Create, Destroy, Persieve, Control, Transform

And changing their long list of Forms and shortening them down to: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Ether (this being pertained to the mind and things "beyond")

The five forms will function as Force Powers that can be purchased. Then these Forms can have additions on top of them. Each can be upgraded with: Duration, Magnitude, Range, Strength. Then Control Upgrades of Create, Destroy, Perceive, Transform... there may be further custom Controls also.

This system, Like Ars Magica and actually the Force System... is PURPOSELY left open-ended to allow characters to "weave" magic to their will while the GM alters difficulty and other things. for the most part, rolls will be made with Discipline.

And for the Force Die:

I am wavering between 2 ideas here...

1. Using the standard force die and black and white pips mean negative and good things. the die may be blind to the player... with just resulting pips revealed so they do not know how much badness they are drawing on (this could be campaign based on wild magic weirdness, or Lovecrathian horrors noticing).
2. The second idea is a NEW Force die (a Mana Die), that has same pips, but also a symbol that is one of the 5 Forms (earth, air, etc), that can be given to the character as a bonus depending on what he is accessing. If I used this option, it would be 100% an option so people could just use standard force dice.

EDIT: I may need to look at the sides of the Force Die. but perhaps the Pips, can tie to the combo anyway... meaning 2 Black adds Ether, one each is water, one white is earth, one black is fire, 2 white is wind? This would have an added bonus if the player is making the mana dice roll blind or it is made by the GM... they would have some idea through what they got that on how good or bad it might be.

Now lets talk about the Mannerisms mechanic...

Last new idea is Talents:

Previously I made a generic Talent Tree. This has been replaced with something quite simpler.

I am limiting Talents to the 3 Core books, but I offer a guide to add any from splat-books or any forthcoming.

• Your may not put more Talents in an XP tier, than the previous one. For example, if you have 2 Slots filled in the 5xp Tier, you may not put more than 2 in the 10xp Tier.
• You may purchase ranked Talents and plug them in on any tier, however you may only buy it once per XP Tier. Some Talents have a start cost of higher than 5xp, that talent my be only bought its lowest level or higher. For example, a 15xp ranked Talent, may be only bough and placed at 15, 20 and 25.
• Non Ranked Talents may be bought at higher tiers than they are listed as long as the correct Tier XP Price is paid. For example, if you have five 10xp Talents you want, one of them could be put in the next tier by paying the 15xp cost.
• Non Ranked Talents may not be purchased more than once.
• Dedication may be only bought once
• Characters only have ONE set of talents and cannot expand into another "Tree"
• No Improved Talent, or Supreme Talent may be bought without the previous one. All 3 of these can be bought in same tier theoredically, if they were all bought at the price of the highest level.

Some explanation of how costs were chosen:

Ranked talents cost is determined by the Lowest price the Ranked Talen is offered at. THis is 5xp for most of them. Some talents (for example) in the Core Book are only listed in the 15, 20 and 25 levels in talent Tress, so their Min cost is 15. Note also, that techically limits these Ranked ones to only be taken 3 times.

Unranked talents across different prices are averaged, rounded down. This was done loose eyeballed looking at a chart. Costs are rounded down because there is only one talent tree.

Side Note about Non Career Talent Trees... namely the one in AoR that gives Career Skills. Each of these I upped their Cost 5xp. I felt gaining 2 career skills for 5xp was too little... still debating, 10 may be too little also.

I will be going over each Talent one at a time, and reconfirming cost as well if the talent should be included. I have a suspision that several talents will just be eliminated because they are too (Star Wars-ish).

Brash -

my first thought regarding the Talents: If you're going to limit characters to only one 'tree', then it needs to be wider... make it 5 or 6 (I'd go 6) slots wide instead of the standard 4.

That encourages a lot of exploration talent-wise, and could create some interesting synergy.

It's also (lets be real here) is a good exp dump... because if characters only have 16 talents to purchase before hitting Mastery, then they're going to be maxxed out pretty quickly...

I was always a fan of the "resonance" system in Mage. The idea that every magic user had their magical "fingerprints" on their effects that tainted it in some way. Perhaps you can use the black and white pips to do something similar, to show that magic sometimes controls you, not the other way around.

Using black pips could show that the storyteller has some control over narrating how the power manifests, as well as having it be easier for the effect to be "traced" back to the generating magic user.

That's an interesting idea, Kyla... I like the idea of GM agency.

In the Conan conversion, we wanted magic to be as dangerous to the caster as to everyone else (I'm a big fan of the Malazan books as well - and that magic can be brutal to the caster). We used the same force powers and structure as EotE, but you HAVE to use all of the pips generated when you roll. Black pips cause wounds, and white pips cause strain. Characters have various means to mitigate that, through either a Lore or Resilience check to convert black to white, or through ceremonies (if they have time)... but that threat is always there. Black pips also cause Corruption, which can make it harder to not use more magic or to stop using it once they start.

It doesn't screw with the characters too much at low level magic (which is what we wanted) but it can be devastating at high level magic (which is mostly NPC's anyway). It's also a mechanical check to keep Sorcerers from just blasting away everything without a ton of set up and ceremony... which presents the perfect opportunity for a band of barbarians and rogues to slip in and save the day...

Okay lets start talking Magic...

Okay my plan is to lift the basic Techniques from Ars Magica: Create, Destroy, Persieve, Control, Transform

And changing their long list of Forms and shortening them down to: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Ether (this being pertained to the mind and things "beyond")

The five forms will function as Force Powers that can be purchased. Then these Forms can have additions on top of them. Each can be upgraded with: Duration, Magnitude, Range, Strength. Then Control Upgrades of Create, Destroy, Perceive, Transform... there may be further custom Controls also.

Something else to consider:

We included "Trappings" - basically, ways to limit your magic and encourage specialization. It nets the player a 'free' bonus force die, but limits the powers that they have access to, or the way they cast (duration, semantics, etc...) or preferably both.

You could do something similar with the elements above - go with Fire, and increase your ability to Destroy or Transform, but you don't get access to Create, and get setbacks to Control.

You get the picture...

Brash -

my first thought regarding the Talents: If you're going to limit characters to only one 'tree', then it needs to be wider... make it 5 or 6 (I'd go 6) slots wide instead of the standard 4.

That encourages a lot of exploration talent-wise, and could create some interesting synergy.

It's also (lets be real here) is a good exp dump... because if characters only have 16 talents to purchase before hitting Mastery, then they're going to be maxxed out pretty quickly...

Not a bad idea. The only issue I have is I have never seen a player actually finish a Talent Tree anyway. I have seen people use 2, but that was to further customize. I guess I am being short sighted though, me and my players are fickle and switch games a lot.

My only thought on holding back on making it bigger is, the players can choose ANYTHING in ANY order. There will be none of that "Crap I have to go through these 2 crap talents to get to "Awesomeness Talent". You will literally have no wasted spaces.

That said, I am not against it. I think six is too many though.

I was always a fan of the "resonance" system in Mage. The idea that every magic user had their magical "fingerprints" on their effects that tainted it in some way. Perhaps you can use the black and white pips to do something similar, to show that magic sometimes controls you, not the other way around.

Using black pips could show that the storyteller has some control over narrating how the power manifests, as well as having it be easier for the effect to be "traced" back to the generating magic user.

Hmm this is interesting. Actually you and the next post have given me another idea...

Something else to consider:

We included "Trappings" - basically, ways to limit your magic and encourage specialization. It nets the player a 'free' bonus force die, but limits the powers that they have access to, or the way they cast (duration, semantics, etc...) or preferably both.

You could do something similar with the elements above - go with Fire, and increase your ability to Destroy or Transform, but you don't get access to Create, and get setbacks to Control.

You get the picture...

Yeah, I am the same, though I am more on the Lovecrathian "Whoops... something noticed" Or the "Uggg... I cast that now I have to make a fear (Sanity) check."

However, the two of you just gave me the idea that I need to leave what the black and white pips mean pretty generic and let the setting dictate how the players and GM want it.

I'd be interested to see your talent list! One of my concerns, before seeing the list, is that rounding down the cost would result in a very small number of 25-XP talents.

Also, there is no " ○ ● " result on the Force die (as it relates to black & white pips). There are 6 ● sides, 3 ○ ○ sides, 2 ○ sides, and 1 ● ● side (you can check them out in the table on page 18 of Age of the Rebellion, or similar places in the Edge & Force and Destiny CRBs).

I'd be interested to see your talent list! One of my concerns, before seeing the list, is that rounding down the cost would result in a very small number of 25-XP talents.

Also, there is no " ○ ● " result on the Force die (as it relates to black & white pips). There are 6 ● sides, 3 ○ ○ sides, 2 ○ sides, and 1 ● ● side (you can check them out in the table on page 18 of Age of the Rebellion, or similar places in the Edge & Force and Destiny CRBs).

Well, I am not rounding down a talent that is only avalable in a 25 level tier. And there are some talents that were 20-25 that I left at 25.

Another thing is I made ALL "Master Talents" 25 despite some being avalable at 20.

Currently there are 29 Level 25 tier Talents.

I should also State, I do not even own Force & Destiny yet. I am going to getting it shortly.

Thanks for the pip breakdown. I had not had a chance to check it out yet. In theory I could do the 4 Base Elements then, but just not have any bonus for the Void one. Hmmm I am starting to not like this idea.

A quick note on Skill conversions.

Astrogation =Navigation

Pilot Planetry = Drive, Light

Pilot Space = Drive, Heavy

The Drive skills are left ambiguous so they can be altered depending on setting... Horse and Steamboat, Car and Semi, Car and Plane, Apocalypse Buggy and War Rig... whatever.

I think that will be the only changes since this system is meant to mostly be modern setting. If you wanted to run something from the 20s, or something, I would just change computers to science perhaps like I did in Edge of the Union. I may just put a blurb or two about making custom skills and changing ones that make sense.

Here is the current list of Talents.

As I said before, I do not have Force and Destiny. However, it should be delivered by Amazon by this weekend. I will be looking over the things in there shortly.

[REMOVED]

Hmm... this Paste bit that is supposed to let you paste Office things appears to not work. Spreadsheet ooks great when I am editing.... then crap once I post.

Will look at later.

Here is a current list going through the Talents starting with the Letter G. Ones that are currently needing a rework are listed at the bottom...

Talent Name Activation Ranked XP

All Terrain Drive Passive No 5

Anatomy Lessons Active (Incidental) No 20

Armor Master Passive No 20

Armor Master (Imp) Passive No 25

Bad Motivator Active (Action) No 15

Barrage Passive Yes 5*

Basic Combat Training Passive No 10

Black Market Contacts Active (Incidental) Yes 5*

Blooded Passive Yes 15*

Body Guard Active (Maneuver) Yes 10*

Bought Info Active (Action) No 15

Brace Active (Maneuver) Yes 5*

Brilliant Evasion Active (Action) No 25

Bypass Security Passive Yes 5*

Careful Planning Active (Action) No 25

Clever Solution Active (Incidental) No 25

Codebreaker Passive Yes 5*

Command Passive Yes 5*

Commanding Presence Passive Yes 10*

Confidence Passive Yes 10*

Contraption Active (Action) No 20

Convincing Demeanor Passive Yes 5*

Coordinated Assault Active (Maneuver) Yes 25*

Crippling Blow Active No 20

Dead to Rights Active (Incidental) No 10

Dead to Rights (Imp) Active (Incidental) No 15

Deadly Accuracy Passive Yes 10*

Debilitating Shot Active (Incidental) No 5

Dedication Passive Yes** 25**

Defensive Driving Passive Yes 5*

Defensive Slicing Passive Yes 10*

Defensive Slicing (Imp) Passive No 20

Defensive Stance Active (Maneuver) Yes 5*

Disorient Passive Yes 10*

Dodge Active (OoT Incidental) Yes 5*

Durable Passive Yes 5*

Dynamic Fire Active (Incidental) No 25

Enduring Passive Yes 15*

Exhaust Port Active (Incidental) No 20

Expert Tracker Passive Yes 5*

Feral Strength Passive Yes 5*

Field Commander Active (Action) No 15

Field Commander (Imp) Passive No 20

Fine Tuning Passive Yes 5*

Fire Control Active (Maneuver) No 25

Forager Passive No 5

Force of Will Active (Incidental) No 25

Form on Me Passive No 20

Frenzied Attack Active (Incidental) Yes 5*

Full Stop Active (Maneuver) No 20

Full Throttle Active (Action) No 5

Full Throttle (Imp) Active (Maneuver) No 15

Full Throttle (Sup) Passive No 20

Gearhead Passive Yes 5*

Greased Palms Active (Maneuver) Yes 15*

Grit Passive Yes 5*

Leftout of the list:

• Bacta Specialist: This one will need some flavor change and perhaps a small rewording of how it works. Perhaps instead of Bacta it will require access to adiquate medical supplies or facilites.
• Balance: This will need reworked to work with Mana, or however magic is worded and/or Powers.
• Galaxy Mapper: Flavor again, with some thoughts on how it will need to work, however it will need to be slightly generic for different settings.
• Familiar Suns: Pretty much same as above for Galaxy Mapper.
• Force Rating: Same as Balance

The double asterisks for dedication represents an optional rule I am thinking of including. In this, a second Dedication may be taken as a 21st Talent after all 20 slots are filled.

EDIT: I lowered Basic Combat Training to 10. Even though this talent if 5xp in the Recuit Tree, I decided 5 was too inepensive in a free form system. I made it 15, but now think that is too much. All of these that add a couple of Career Skills (Insight, Well Traveled, etc) will be 10xp regardless of where they appear in Talent Trees.

More to come when I review the next set.

Small update:

Both Defensive Slicing and the Improved one have been renamed Defensive Hacking for flavor only. They function completely the same.

I am also working on a form-fill character sheet, that is a rework of things made by DylanRPG and Caied.

Here is a preview...

EDIT: Upadated. Page 1 of the sheet is done

Next Set....

Hard Headed Active (Action) Yes 5*
Hard Headed (Imp) Active (Action) No 25
Heightened Awareness Passive No 20
Heroic Fortitude Active (Incidental) No 15
Hidden Storage Passive Yes 10*
Hold Together Active ( OoT Incidental) No 20
Hunter Passive Yes 10*
Incite Rebellion Active (Action) No 25
Indistinguishable Passive Yes 5*
Insight Passive No 10
Inspiring Rhetoric Active (Action) No 10
Inspiring Rhetoric (Imp) Passive No 15
Inspiring Rhetoric (Sup) Active (Incidental) No 20
Intense Focus Active (Maneuver) No 10
Intense Presence Active ( OoT Incidental) No 20
Intimidating Active ( OoT Incidental) Yes 5*
Inventor Passive Yes 15*
Invigorate Active (Incidental) No 25
It's Not That Bad Active (OoT Incidental)No 25
Jump Up Active (Incidental) No 15
Jury Rigged Passive Yes 10*
Kill With Kindness Passive Yes 5*
Knockdown Passive No 15
Know Somebody Active (Incidental) Yes 5*
Knowledge Specialization Passive Yes 5*
Known Schematic Active (Maneuver) No 15
Let's Ride Active (Incidental) No 5
Lethal Blows Passive Yes 5*
Mental Fortress Active (Incidental) No 20

Nobody's Fool Passive Yes 5*

Master Talents Active (Incidental) No 25
Natural Talents Active (Incidental) No 15

Changes:

• Master Driver: Tied to the 2 Driving skills and not gunnery.
• Master Pilot: Renamed Master Operator for a more generic use. Works with both Drive Skills
• Master Slicer: Renamed Master Hacker
• Master Starhopper: Renamed Master Cartographer, Tied to Navigation skill
• Natural Driver: Tied to the 2 Driving skills and not gunnery.
• Natural Pilot: Renamed Natural Gunner. Removed Piloting, and added Ranged, Heavy

Removed:

• Invigorate: Not sure what I will do with this yet. Will need to have more completed on Magic.

I just remembered when going through the last set of talents, that there is a Talent in the Medic Tree called "Well Rounded" that allows you to take any 2 Skills and make them Career Skills. I am going to remove all of the others that do this: Basic Combat Training, Insight, Tactical Combat Training, etc. in favor of this talent.

It is allowed at only 5xp, I have decided if someone wants to take this 5 times to become some kind of skills master, that is probably fine.

Final Set of Talents

• Overwhelm Emotions : Force Power, perhaps revisited later
• Sense Emotions: Force Power, perhaps revisited later
• Situation Awareness : Geared mostly toward space combat
• Slight of Mind : Force Power, perhaps revisited later
• Solid Repairs : Will be revisited when Vehicles are done
• Speaks Binary : Pertains to droids
• Stimpack Specialization: Will be reskinned when I decide about drugs
• Tactical Combat Training: Well rounded encompasses
• Well Traveled : Well rounded encompasses

Renamed:

• Skilled Slicer: renamed Skilled Hacker
• Stimpack Application (all): Renamed Paramedic
• Uttini : Renamed Reclamation

Skill list changes:

My Force and Destiny book arrives from Amazon this week. I had the beta, but my group mostly played Edge based characters, so I am hardly got any play with it. I kind of doubt there will be many Talents that will be converted until I complete Magic.

My thoughts on Force Rating (perhaps renamed Mana) will be done through the normal talent tree. With people having only 1 talent tree, I think I will be raising the Mana Rating through a 5, 15 and 25 talent.

My plan is to also have a couple of ways to have magic abilities. The actual Mana ratings will be a "True Magic" that will give access to ability to buy into Magical Trees (like the force powers). There will also be Sympathetic magic access that allows you to do magical things and use items, etc without focusing on actual Magic (think John Constantine).

I am also starting to lean toward not even including Magic in the main rules. I think I may finish this as a complete generic modern setting that could be used for Bond and Mad Max games... then release a series of supplements. These are going to be Magic, Martial Arts and Powers. Perhaps more will follow. I also plan on taking groups of splat books and adding things.. like talents from them.

I got Force and Destiny. As I expected, 90% of new stuff are Force Talents.

There are about 10 I will be adding. I will probably go through these this week as well as finalizing all the Talents so I can check that off my list.

Next I will be working on the Boon and Flaw System.