Homme Chapeau said:

I can get behind that Hatman. Earth Ziggy is gonna want to board Soul Calibur and not waste the slots on a 4/5 asset that already essentially duplicates torn hero. But you really think he needs it in life for that matter? I mean he gets access to Perfect sense AND torn hero? You cant touch his foundations anyways.

And yeah if i want an Earth character Ill probably play King but that doesnt mean that myself or others wont play Ziggy for other reasons. He's neat and his mechanic is kinda neat.

ShippuJinrai said:

The thing is that Soul Cal dot has one thing over Hero and Perfect Sense of Balance - it "permanently" removes a problematic card on the board, whereas the other two are temporary. From playing No Forgiveness!, the problem most have with the card over here is not that it locks down a card, but that it effectively removes it from the game without being counterable by any sort of effect in Block 4. Soul Cal dot gives you that kind of board counter power that can be combined with Journey of Repentance/Torn Hero/Perfect Sense of Balance for some real board wreckage.

King, for example, can take advantage of opponent disruption, and I've yet to see a Siegfried that could really do that.

LordAggro said:

Kisheri and Kyoufu should be A tier, White Crane and Marius swapped to B and C tier respectively.

White Crane has the ability to discard Knight Breaker, Pommel Smash, Turn Thruster, etc, before they hit the table.

Marius will get better in time, but for now his uses are extremely limited, especially when you consider the fact that there are simply better chars in his symbols.

As far as Sieg goes, Earth has King, which as far as I'm concerned is Earth's best character. Life Sieg has the lovely advantage of having a board you simply do not want to touch without getting severely screwed-over.

ShippuJinrai said:

I kind of agree with most of this, Earth, sporting 100% characters with lots of life (and therefore likely going to turns later in the match and foundations to use standoff) should probably run 2-3 standoffs. Earth also has the luxury of Torn Hero, meaning it has a better handle on keeping it's resources ready to use for standoff.

A stun deck, or resource control deck, should definately run standoff, and although most fire decks are heading that direction (to also find synergy with FtM) it isn't all of them.

I guess most of my issue with this card is its improper use by anyone not willing to calculate whether or not its use will have the intended result. Further, the majority of my decks are built to attend to resource issues, i.e. they are capable of quick agro but also very strong in the long game, able to keep up with draw and build, the latter going the distance to neutering standoff. I suppose where I am seeing standoff do nothing is mostly against me, which is why I am asking players to take a second look at the card and decide if it really will provided them with what they want in their deck, or if it will just be a dead foundation because they can't push stun through, or they can't keep up with the opponent's build.

On the topic of the shadowar promo characters I've adressed them all except for Kyoufu who I am fairly sure will not be top tier. Her ability to make it harder to block one attack is useful, but with damage redux and players able to tech against it fairly easily (carry extra blocks of the big attacks zone) will probably go against it, I'd say a start at mid tier is appropriate (same as Kisheri and Marius, Crane one tier below mid).

Obviously I agree that Sieg is better off Earth. Which just goes to show you that if Sieg is Life's best character, and yet Sieg is still more oft run off Earth and to greater effect, that Life itself is not a top 4 symbol because Sieg isn't even a top 8 character...

Not that I don't care to stop the discussion preceding, but 'agreeing to disagree' is not favorable to compromise, understanding, and mutual agreement. Both people can be right, and in a variety of circumstances, identifying these circumstances is what I strive for. If Shinji thinks I degraded him because he disagrees with me he is severely mistaken. I degraded his opinion because his opinion is wrong or, so that I don't get his naive response of 'opinions can't be wrong', more specifically his analysis is wrong and from said analysis a 'poor' opinion has been formulated.

I would never degrade Shinji personally on a forum (and if I come across that way I apologize), except for maybe in jest. If I wanted to take Shinji down a level, and in a mature and penentrating manner (I'm sure he would take this as insulting, rather I would only speak in truths to which he may or may not take as being insults), I would do so in person and more likely than not in private.

As much as I'm sure Shinji thinks I hate him or his attitude, he is sadly wrong again. There are plenty of things I respect and admire about him, from his dedication to the game, countless contributions to the forum, very self-sure attitude, and all of this while fully admitting his lack of playgroup and overall time spent practicing the game. People aren't black and white though, and I'm sorry if it comes across that I spend the large majority of my time focusing and Shinji's darker pigments, he actually struck me as a pretty interesting individual when met in person. Someone whom I wouldn't have a problem with getting to know better or even ultimately being friends with.

- dut

dutpotd said:

The problem lies in that Life's support also shares Earth... but Earth has more cards.

I'm hoping the next set balances the amount of cards each symbol has.

Homme Chapeau said:

Yup, the sheer number of cards each symbol has is going a long way to defining which symbols are best. This is a good thing, becuase if it was the other way around there would be balance issues.

I'm fairly certain that by the time we have fully fleshed out meta (before nats/June next year) we will have the numbers equal out for most, if not all, symbols.

- dut

dutpotd said:

You're far more confident about this than I am. Historically, it's never been the case.

dutpotd said:

But see, that's why I say agree to disagree.

Siegfried is better off Life

if you think he is better off Earth

YOU

ARE

WRONG

However, you think he's better off Earth, and that I am wrong for thinking he's better off Life.

Do you now understand why I say agree to disagree? Because we both put forth our arguments on the table, why I feel Life is Sieg's best, why you feel Earth's is, and I can only say, "Well, I know that I'm right, but maybe you've had better experience with him off Earth?", whereas you say, "IMA DEGRADE YA FOR BEING FACTUALLY INCORRECT!"

Siegfried is better off Life. If you disagree, then I know you haven't built him off Life, ran him for a while, then built him off Earth to see he isn't as good off Earth as he looks.

The problem becomes when you start to add the idea of "success" into the mix. Because, what is success? How is it defined? It's only useful as a tool of measuring credibility. However, it shouldn't really be that way at all. Ideally, a conversation on these boards should go like this:

A: I think so and so about this.

B: Hmm, I disagree, I think so and so other.

A: Ah I see, okay here's why I think so and so...

B: Again, I disagree, here's why I see other...

A: Alright that's cool, we may disagree but I get your view better now.

B: Yep me too, peace dawg, good convo.

I mean, that can happen without anyone making claims about their prowess or whatever, it's hard but possible. I am guilty of this trap too, to be fair, since I have had some moderate success in tournaments when someone writes or says something completely out of the blue that doesn't jibe with my experience, I go into "WTF?" mode until I figure out where it's coming from.

Reason I say all of this is, I don't know Garrett. I've never met him. So far, on these boards, from what I see Garrett tends to provide a lot of interesting if not commonly accepted opinions that he supports very well, with logic and good solid reasoning. Now, I've had a few intense exchanges with him but they have not devolved into the personal, and I don't anticipate that happening. A good example is this thread, I started out with a seriously irritated mood but as the conversation progressed it just became good intellectual debate. THAT is what I personally value, that is why I have always loved and supported the boards and will continue to do so now that I've returned to the game. We may not agree but I'm pretty sure we can understand each other's views and the reasoning behind them, and that's all that matters. Right?

However, Shinji, the reason people seem so abrasive sometimes towards you is that you have difficulty avoiding the personal. NOT an attack, merely an observation on my part. I have had my own conflicts of opinion with you but I don't think I ever attacked you or anyone else personally. Now while I admit that Garrett was not exactly the best sport in this conversation either, stuff like this:

"Finally, the fact that you said ShippuJinrai's has more ability to "clout" just goes along with how I've always thought of you: you're an *******. I have never once read, heard, or witnessed a time when you weren't so stuck in your own world, and mercilessly degrading those who view things differently."

...is not true. Case in point - me! I just came back into the game, got on the boards, read a bunch of stuff by this dutpotd guy that had me scratching my head, asked around as to who he was, talked to him directly, got his viewpoints and now - I'm golden, I think he's a great contributer.

And so are you, really. Nobody ever gives you credit for the hardest thing about writing, that you put yourself and your opinions out there. I know, REALLY know how difficult that is, probably better than anyone in this game. I was the first one to start writing about it analytically, and I'm still doing it now. It's hard to have an opinion completely shot down for idiotic reasons. Or at least, what you may presume is idiotic or absurd.

So, my advice to you Shinji and Garrett, and MYSELF, and anyone else - please, a moratorium on all personal attacks. If someone offers a dissenting viewpoint, challenge the viewpoint if you wish but don't call the person an *******, or imply they are wrong simply because of who they are and your personal feelings toward them. What is the point of a discussion forum if there is never any actual DISCUSSION??? Furthermore, I will make more of an effort to make sure I don't ever do what I did for the first (and last) time in this thread and use results as a form of authority or credibility, and I encourage others not to make the same mistake.

Ex. "I think Hata is the best character in the game because I win with the deck" is NOT a good thing, or even remotely useful. However, "I think Hata is the best character in the game because of this, this and this" is infinitely better. Because otherwise we're all engaged in ****-swinging contest that doesn't accomplish anything (except measuring **** size, I guess!).

That's my two cents on this whole tangent, make of that what you will.

Also, Siegfried is great off Earth, he's great off Life and he's freaking HILARIOUS off Good! I made a hastily throw together deck out of spare parts with the little 3/3 kick reversal, Konvict Kick, some throws and Lifter as the kill and the deck is comedy all around. Hitting people with fully combo'd Lifters for 12 that they can't block is pretty funny. Just some thoughts there...

...oh and Drew sucks, don't listen to him ever, what an idiot. (See what I did there? Love you GAAAAHLIC BUTTAH)

VikramS said:

Mais non.

VikramS said:

Methinks your two cents is placed on the winning horse, thank you for your rational input into something that Shinji and I let get out of hand. I think I've already explained why I may have been taken out of context in prior posts in this thread. I still think Shinji views me as someone who thinks too highly of oneself, and I probably come across that way far too often with respect to him becuase of the vehemance with which I approach our discussions.

On topic, I am beginning to see Shinji's POV with respect to his opinion of Life Sieg. Because Sieg offers Life something other Life characters don't oft have, and because he is one of the better Life characters, and that Earth has distinguishably better characters, means Sieg is therefore better off of the Life symbol.

I guess there is a need to distinguish between a) I have picked this character, what is the best symbol on him - and b) I have picked this symbol, what is the best character I could play that has it. In absolute terms I think an Earth Sieg is better than a Life Sieg, i.e. in reference to a).

Sieg to me is a generic pump character. I don't actually enjoy playing him, and I don't often. I will admit it, he is too generic (for me) and relatively insignificant, so much so that I don't spend a lot of time dedicated to him. If that disqualifies me from having an opinion then so be it. As far as I can tell, him and his two character abilities lend themselves to the following pieces of tech (if there are more please enlighten me, like I said I have only seldom built and played as him, and only off Earth and Life - I haven't even tried Good yet):

1) Damage Pump ( reusable ) and possibly without a comittal cost. + 3 or more damage, on average 2.5 damage pump (opponent specific).

2) Exclusive access to extra damage on Divide (opponent specific) and anti-comittal with Soul Calibur (deterrance and perma blank foundation as a result).

3) Synergy with his own support re: Potm. Manipulation re: opponent's and own ability to utilize Potm.

4) The ability to commit cards in the staging area in circumstances where a 3 or less is checked on the first ability (what I call the Ibis Minuett requisite - note, a current day example would be Toughest in the Universe)

5) The ability to lose vitality and better manage vitality specific effects (Desperation)

There are definately more that I am not aware of at the moment.

In my mind, you then ask yourself if any of these tech go better with certain cards in the meta, and from there you can probably choose his best symbol (the symbol that has these certain cards). If there isn't any particular bonus or applicability of his tech to certain cards in the meta than it is just a question - which symbol is better?

Some possible arguments that I can think of in relation to each of these 5) points.

1) - Life has more speed pump. Speed pump helps get the damage to connect. - Earth has more damage pump, a) can work with cards that need to deal minimum damage (ex. Ready to Launch), b) can work to a more agro (I kill you very quickly) approach. - Life has lower difficulty attacks on average (<= 4 diff is 27 to 18) thereby making better use of the free damage pump on extra attacks if more attacks are thrown on lower difficulties, assumed they are drawn into, playable, etc. - Earth has more throws. Throws help damage to connect, ensuring the +x is utilized at least in part. - Life has Tira's support, and a card that may make blocking impossible if symbols aren't shared, this may overlap with the character/symbol issue and work really well, or really poorly (eggs in one basket). - Earth has more damage redux and defensive pieces and 'arguably' stays alive longer, this means the free/reusable pump is used more. - Earth has a zero difficulty foundation that might increase the number of cards played, increaseing the number of attacks that can be thrown and the number of uses of the reusable character ability. - Life has more 1 difficulty foundations the inclusion of which might increase the number of cards played, ... - Life has better access to draw (Searching for family - hunt for Jin, - Ivey's stuff, etc.) and this might see an increase in attacks able to be thrown, and more use of the reusable ability. - Life has more multiple attacks, more use of reusable ability.

2) - with lower difficulties on Life attacks, might be easier to use them to preceed the Earth Divide. - Life doesn't otherwise have access to as many blanking cards (Earth has Rashotep) and is more balanced with the ability to use SC. - Earth has other blanking abilities and can be built on as a theme, too many eggs in one basket might go against it. - Earth has fewer assets that would likely need to be included in the deck, whereas Life may not be able to pass up Drossel/Robes.

3) - they can both run Path.

4) - can't think of anything particular to symbols.

5) - Earth has more desparation based abilities.

After doing that I kind of feeling like building Siegfried again.

There is obviously room to argue on either end of the spectrum, and I think I have more respect for Life Sieg after doing this exercise. If you land where I do , namely, it is too hard to see a far and away better symbol relative to the tech Sieg brings, then (as stated earlier) you need to simply compare symbols.

I think Earth is a better symbol at the moment (with Universal Fighter, 6 hs, 28 vitality) than Life is and therefore Sieg off Earth is superior to Sieg off Life - my symbol listing before is consistent with this.

I guess my question to Shinji is, do you think Life is a better symbol than Earth? If yes, then I see why you would arrive at Life Sieg > Earth Sieg. If no, then can you let me know (try to relate it to my thought process above or offer a different process that makes sense) why Life, as a lesser symbol, together with what Sieg brings, makes it a better choice?

- dut

Homme Chapeau said:

Yeah but we have a fresh new look on developing the game vs. what we had before. Give it some time, backwards baseball cap guy. Don't nay say, YAY SAY!

dutpotd said:

Just because a symbol has more options, is argued to be "higher in the tier list", etc, doesn't instantly make it the better symbol. IMO, Paul Phoenix is better off All than he is Fire, despite Fire being a better symbol.

I feel Earth is the 2nd best symbol in the game, so, no, I do not feel Life is better as a symbol.

So, why do I feel Life Siegfried is better than Earth?

Well, let's look at Earth Siegfried. With an average 3-4 damage tacked onto each attack, you're more than likely to throw in 4 Crushing Embrace, Close Throw, and Flooded-Nile.

Notice anything? All Throws. Now, which character is more Throw-oriented and has a better track record?

King.

By the time you've built Earth Siegfried, yes, you have some points above King (free damage pump, access to char-specific Soul Calibur* and Siegfried's Earth Divide E), but as much as I like Siegfried as a character in this block, arguably being better than even Ragnar or Bryan Fury, he is not King.

There's more.

As you've already pointed out, Life has two very glaring promises:

Free speed pumps and smaller difficulty attacks. If you felt so compelled, you could even run Cobra Clutch and Close Throw as your Life Throws.

But you don't have to. Personally, I happen to like 4 Tiger Claw, 4 Hilt Impact, 3/4 Dragon Tail Leg Sweep, 3/4 Dragon Punch, and 3/4 Swing Kick*. You have small difficulty attacks that all come for about 5+ damage a piece, yet you likely won't need to check higher than a 5 during your entire string, all the while Stunning and speed pumping your high damage attacks.

Life also has a virtually untouchable board with the combined powers of Torn Hero and Perfect Sense of Balance, as well as Regretful Existence to fight off Intimidating Presence and Memories of a Nightmare to blank Enraged Golem, etc (although clearly Earth could do the same tricks).

Although Siegfried is quite plain in his nature, I've nicknamed him Mr. Reliable for a reason: he does what he was intended to do very, very well. Ragnar must cut himself and tap-out. Bryan Fury can only run certain attacks and must blow up foundations. Jin must discard characters.

Siegfried must simply check 4s to give a general 3-4 on ANY attack.

Simply put, I think the only reason he isn't considered high tier is because people haven't bothered to build him. He's a starter character, A, and B, he looks so terribly boring and plain.

But once you get past how linear he is, tell me if he doesn't barf-up damage.

MarcoPulleaux said:

I just quoted this. Because I agree with you, in 'most' cases he does insane damage (over multiple attacks). He makes every attack better. And it is kind of neat having a special hate for characters different than you (Sieg is clearly a bigot of sorts).

The rest of your post I kind of agree with and kind of don't. I don't like throws as much as others do, so there is that. Then there is the fact that having King as 'better' doesn't mean Earth still isn't a valid choice for Siegfried if in absolute terms it is still better than Life.

Life has an untouchable board... But it doesn't care (blocking aside) about not being touched. There is really only flexible body, a few lu chen stuff, some hard to use Yi Shan stuff, and pretty much no Christie stuff that cares to be played on the opponents turn. Life also doesn't block as well (less flexible body) considering Paid to Protect is the bastion of this technique in the current meta and it has Earth!

I wouldn't call Sieg Mr. Reliable. He is rather quite unreliable, he doesn't fare well against certain characters simply because of the symbols they have. He only get's +1 on a un-modded King... And King is heavily played. That said, he is very good against Astrid and gets +3 (same with Hata).

I'm still getting the feeling that because there are better Earth characters out there you shy away from running Sieg off Earth. I don't think that is a factor when deciding what is the best symbol for a character.

- dut

To kind of stray away from civility discussion and beating the earth talk into the ground, let's shift the discussion to something else ive noticed but not really seen many people comment on.

Hilde as A-Tier

What are you all seeing that i am not? I mean, how is she winning? She's one of the most fragile characters in the game, incredibly inconsistent, and seems to get outshined by a lot of other fire characters. I'm not bashing her, i just don't have the slightest idea on how to approach building her! What do you guys think? What are you doing with Hilde to make her the broken bull associated with her video game equivalent? Please, enlighten me.

I'ma gonna have to agree with Shippu on this. Hilde simply isn't all that good. Apart from Stand Off, Valk's Shield, and P2P Fire doesn't really have any good damage reduction. Basically if she doesn't see a Dual Wield and an Odin's Wraith, she's fubared. Also with a lack of Healer, that +20 damage/+20 speed attack is going to be pumped up from deep in the negatives.

Remember that straight Fire pump still works on her attacks, so Enraged Golem and all those other goodies are still on the table, and can work in a pinch if you don't draw Dual-Wielding . And dutpotd 's deck used Hammer Uppercut as an alternate kill piece, eschewing Odin's Wrath altogether. I honestly wouldn't do that, but hey, to each his own. Here's a rough draft of what a Hilde* I'd made will look like:

Starting Character:

Hilde (7 HS 18 Vitality) (Fire, Good, Order)

Actions (4):

4 Dual-Wielding (4/4; Weapon) (Fire, Good, Order)

Assets (4):

2 Gianzende Nova and Frischer Himmel (2/5 +2M; Unique, Weapon) (Fire, Good, Order)

2 Valkyrja's Shield (3/4 +2M; Breaker: 1, Unique, Weapon) (All, Fire, Order)

Attacks (16):

4 Pommel Smash (3/3 2H1; Stun: 1, Weapon) (All, Fire, Order)

4 Execution Technique First Rite (4/3 3L3 +2L; Stun: 2, Weapon) (Air, Chaos, Fire)

4 Hammer Uppercut (5/2 4H7 +2L; Weapon) (Death, Earth, Fire)

4 Odin's Wrath (8/3 4H10 +2M; Weapon) (All, Fire, Order)

Foundations (36):

4 Hope for One's People (0/5 +3H) (Fire, Good, Order)

4 Envoy of the Queen (1/5 +3L; Weapon) (All, Fire, Order)

4 Nursing a Grudge (2/5) (Air, Fire, Good)

4 Paid to Protect (2/5 +3M) (Earth, Fire, Void)

4 Relentless (2/4; Weapon) (All, Fire, Order)

4 Stand Off (2/5 +3M) (Air, Earth, Fire)

4 Memories that Stain its Armor (3/4 +4M) (Death, Evil, Fire)

4 ShadoWar (3/5 +3H) (Evil, Fire, Good)

4 The Ultimate Team (3/5 +2L) (All, Fire, Order)

As you can see, this deck has options available to it; it has plenty of card draw and damage reduction to get things across, along with some Stun , a bit of hate for the few things that can stop it, as well as something very interesting; since all attacks are ShadoWar , the foundation of the same name combined with The Ulitimate Team means you can play a lesser version of standard-issue beatstick Astrid , with the card draw and Nursing a Grudge feeding you the fuel you need

Now, this is by no means a final version, but you get the idea. I'd also like the Hilde* players to step up and help me tweak it.

ShippuJinrai said:

Firefirefirefiefirefirefirefirefirefirefirefirefirefire

Quick comments about actually assessment. Thing is that keeps most of what is said from being fact is valued universal critera. Without a judging paradigm conversations and analysis can go anywhere. Anything that deals with quality assurence or assesment has standards and goals that they have to meet. Most of the solid talk comes in, if you haven't noticed, after guidelines and standards are placed. Without a critera it becomes an opinonfest. There has to be some measurement. I had to look at this with my own post in how I enjoy White Crane and have had okay success with her. But I have to look at it in context of who I am facing against and what I am running. I realize that in the meta I am in, that is not that hardcore, she can win. In a stronger serious meta most of my building and disruption is not present. So even if I play well with her its based on the context of the meta and not of the standards of the deck. One thing that should be considered is the listing of characteristics that are looked at in evaluating a deck. From that point you can make an assessment that all can work from. This makes everyone have direct parts of their case they have to defend making the debate/conversation not squirlly but organized and productive.

Back to Seigfried/Hilde conversation.

Siegfried is a better life character because all that you can do with earth King and Rashotep do better with the same base. I think that when you look at the core of an earth deck and you look who best fits the concept its not Siegfried. Life makes his speed hella fast. His attacks pump themselves and then he pumps them some more. You can run so many speed pumps that make his attacks just about unblockable. He can push through damage. He has access to 2 different finishers that do major damage. Wrath of Heaven without the face down jank is still strong. Siegfried's earth divide is strong but requires 2 other attacks. But with life there are a lot of little support in the form of attacks to do little tricks that are annoying.

Hilde has the issue against high aggro decks that can smack her just as fast as she can ring out people. I've seen a Ragnar deck get some crazy damage pump turn 2 that could 1 shot Hilde. I think Hilde has a lot of different draw options that keep her alive. Without draw and her own support she falls fast. People don't like Sirens Call but it has been, for me, a good kill condition card only if I put some other attacks out first. But give it to Hata he can do more with Sirens call then Hilde. Hilde is one of those characters that she needs key parts of her support first turn and needs to 4+ foundations turn one.

dutpotd said:

It isn't that Life has a bunch of defensive foundations that help on the opponent's turn (though it does, arguably more than any other symbol), it's that Stun is one of the most potent forms of pushing attacks through. Be it Wheel Kick - Dragon Lifter, any Paul Phoenix deck, Pommel Smash, or Earth Throwdown running Cobra Clutch and Close Throw, Stun is EVERYWHERE in almost every symbol. I'm not saying Life wants to protect its staging area necessarily, rather, you will be heavily punished if you do use Stun (and if you choose not to use Stun out of fear, your deck/strategy is that much more hampered).

OK, so against King he can only hope to acquire +2, sure.

But against Astrid, Paul Phoenix, Jin and Kazuya Mishima, and James Hata, he gets all 4
Against Rashotep, Bryan Fury, Ragnar, Cassandra, Heihachi Mishima, and Tira, he can hope for 3

All are good as otherwise "free" damage pumps, either way.

Yes, Siegfried isn't entirely overshadowed by King. Like I said, +2-4 damage on every attack gives him that much more of an edge over King whom must rely on the foundations at his disposal for pumps. And as I've said, off Earth I'm sure you could totally rock an attack line-up of Cobra Clutch, Close Throw, Hilt Impact, and Tiger Claw, if not throwing in Double Grounder Beta or Earth Divide as a kill (isn't really necesary with Path of the Master, though), and that way you've got one mad aggro beast.

Of course, every attack I mentioned there conveniently shares Life, meaning it all comes down to non-orange cards.

Actions are neither here nor there. Base Hold and Tien Lei are likely the only ones you'd consider. Berserker Rage versus Frantic Search is the only real debate.

Assets too. Earth gets Kunpaetku Shrine and Ymirfang, versus Life that has staples Robes-Drossel, as well as Gay Vampire Castle for aggro funtimes.

Foundations are what separate them, and truly, this is where Life Sieg vs Earth Sieg comes down to personal preference.

Do you want uber safety with Torn Hero + Perfect Sense, as well as Knows when to Talk to completely slow down an opponent?
Or do you like going aggressive with even more "free" pumps such as Hungry for Battle and Brooding that work well with his E?

All in all, he IS a good character, and I beseech you, or somebody with access to the right components, build both Life and Earth Sieg, not even necessarily to find which works better, but rather, that Siegfried is simply a good character.

As I pointed out, almost every aggro character has a cost to their pump. Siegfried, for the most part, does not, and he also has a fatass of 28 vitality AND access to some bad-ass redux.

Oh, and as Vik pointed out, yes, Good 'fried is lawls. Mark of the Beast can get pretty epoch, as can Dragon's Flame.

Homme Chapeau said:

But Hatman, i know you realize that Tekken and Shadowar/sc4 were already sent to the presses without early rotation in mind. Its not like they designed fire to be as retarded as it is intentionally.

In the next set, I'm calling Mitsurugi and Amy as the only Fire characters.

Whatever the case is, something tells me we're gonna get a break from Fire next set.

ShippuJinrai said:

You guys are right Hilde ain't good. Imma continue to run her and win all my local events. When my players complain I will point them to this thread.

Maybe one of them can post here and tell you why they continually get beat, continually ask for her to get an errata or be banned from our tournies. : )

Seriously though, the sarcasm is just becuase they are threatening to all run Astrid (to get back at me and they know I don't like Astrid) next week...

Hilde is good because he is 'consistent', that is what 7hs and a built in draw ability bring. The ability to consistently get the right pieces earlier and to play to a single attack or slightly more.

- dut

Edit: I guess I can't say just this... The guy who thinks she 'needs' to get certain cards our early is dead wrong, my deck is 69+ cards and always has been, never running more than 3 standoffs and this is in a deck that plays to said card's strengths.

dutpotd said:

Honestly I dont see it, I really dont. This is my opinion feel free to flame me till your blue in the face but if it looks anything like the one posted a bit ago I'm really suppose to expect people wanting an errata on her? I'm to assume that comment was sarcasm I hope, I'm bad at picking those out. Hata and King I can understand, but an 18 life character in this meta needs to be able to pop off uber quick (zi mei) and even with her card draw, i'm assuming typical fire draw and her E, she does need key components. Hata will kill you just by drawing fire foundations, I've seen the deck throw 18+ dmg atks without breaking a sweat and with enough ammo to bomb you with two more in case you live. Bottom line I think she has to many factors working against her in this meta to consistently place with the big boys, and errata like I said I'm to assume the comment was sarcasm.

InsanoFlex said:

No seriously, 3+ players in my group want her to receive an errata. They think the fact that she can reverse -damage for +damage 'and' speed is wrong, they want the speed part out of it.

King and Astrid are both 'better' than Hilde, there really isn't any debate about that. Hata (per my experience, opinion, and listing) is slightly worse overall, but not by any noticable margin.

Hilde can be as quick or quicker than Zi Mei, it all depends on how you build the deck and what your opponent has for vitality/defense. There isn't any key piece to a strong Hilde deck, the one I've had most sucess with has 2 Dual Wieldings and kills using it maybe 1/4 games, other games it kills simply with the damage pump and control pieces on the board.

My deck doesn't look that much like the one posted earlier here my lordagro, my first iteration utilized many of the same attacks (and is posted in the deckbuilding discussion) but I've come a long way after what is nearing 2 months of play with her.

I'm not really sure what factors you consider work against her aside from her vitality, she has the best handsize, the best symbols (fire and good, offense and defense and cursed blood), and the best draw options (every attack draws a card if it deals damage). Her vitality simply means she must priorize defense first to be consistent - granted a quick kill is really only gauranteed if you go first, and we all know you can't control that. My Hilde has interesting defensive techniques that go beyond 'just' reducing damage, and I think Hilde needs to include that flexibility or else she has a difficult time against Bryan Fury and Astrid, both of whom can throw consistent high damage after a few turns of builds.

I don't think Hilde is the 'best' character in the meta, and I don't think she is easy to play with. In fact, she is probably one of the toughest characters to play with because one mistake will cost you the game, whether it be leaving your opponent barely alive, or simply playing too much of your hand/not enough, etc. She also needs to be pilotted by a very patient player, one that can foresee the outcome of a thrown attack, calculate damage after her reduce +X2 ability perfectly, etc. She isn't the type of character you should be able to 'see' as top tier, it takes work, but a perfect build offers the flexibility to kill quickly and survive indefinately as soon as you establish the edge on build.

- dut