LordAggro said:

Buns? Nah, ain't that a *****? I'm a pretzel. Don't you see what my outfit's made out of?

Death isn't better than Fire or Earth dude.

sir_shajir said:

Yep we forget about her that's why I have her in the same tier as Hata and mentioned before Hata on the listing. Oviously I still think Astrid is better, and Zi Mei, and Hilde (for fire characters), but not by any serious margin - they are all really good.

"B Class - Cassandra, Hata, Omar, Heiachi, Jin"

I've never been a Cassie fanatic, gave mine to Olexa actually, at worlds. She is deathly good (two symbols she doesn't have, but you know what I mean).

The reason Zi Mei and Hilde are better than Cassie is as you said - speed. Zi Mei drops difficult to deal with damage turn 2/3 with multiplied Furies. Hilde gives much nastier speed pumps than Cassie (albeit once a turn) and outdraws her. When we start to do our tournament runs I guess you guys will see ^^

- dut

I agree somewhat... Im not sure on the Power of Hata; He has to commit his own foundations to get an advantage over his opponents and doing so further negates his checking power with eighteen or twenty attacks this becomes increasingly difficult and your going to need a horseshoe or some kind of magical way of not checking attacks. cassandra can do this just by revealing a card and she can force a block by turning sideways and making your attack turn into a discarding attack.

FYI: I am not running cassandra... one of my freinds is... It seems like some people are taking it as an insult if certain characters are not seen as the strongest or superior to others on the basis that they are currently running that "toon". The results of the SAS don't really prove anything to me except that Vik is a good player and b-rad went handi-capped as his deck was not optimally made and was still missing some key components/if he went in with some of the other cards he was looking for (promo astrid's) I am not so sure that Vik would have 2-0 him. I know I play with him on a weekly basis.
If a tournament was being held in ohio/NY and Jon Herr won with his "toon" or Omar won with his card; would everyone forget thier testing and assume that his "toon" is the best and not base it on the man's skill? Remember one tournament doesn't determine the world's meta unless it's a significantly large tournament like a nationals event or world's that encourages the top players around the world to participate (US nationals and world's seem to stick out here).

I haven't gotten around to making Hilde so I am not going to comment on her as that would just reveal my ignorance on the matter. I suspect that she is very strong although that eighteen vitality seems like a serious liability. I know you can get her attacks up to 30 damage with a doulbe use of standoff (use both enhances on the card=+8 ) and some other tricks. I'll email you when I make her we'll compare notes?

zi mei looks impressive. there is no doubt about that. PotM usage is what impresses me though.. ZM matches many symbols with her attacks like wheel kick and fury of the ancients (multiple 5???+ PotM is insane). And she still has many techy cards and is still a 7 handsize. One thing that many people fail to account for is how powerful is PotM in their deck? It's not an auto include in some decks and some decks aren't good because of thier inability to use it for it's maximum damage because of the symbols of thier attacks/actions.

sir_shajir said:

I 100% agree with all of this and think it regularly, from the comments on individual bias, the undecided power level of Hata, the comments about Brads deck ( very good but has room for growth), to being able to determine if path is a weapon or simply a shiny accessory in the deck.

Shajir, you had better be ready for a fun tourney season. The Calgary meta is growing steadily, and we hope to have a foxhound equivalent <or 2 even> soon (i.e. a group of 3 or more that all travel and play very well together). The fact that we both think along the same lines in a lot of respects is what 'excites' me the most re: future matchups and tournies. The fact that Mike Lowe absolutely owns me all the time for some reason is what 'scares' me the most..

Good additions to the discussion by everyone in this thread (except for Shinji, whom we can't seem to goad into posting anything of value - come on, you know you want to!).

- dut

Just remember, with Hata, there IS a magic way to make all my checks - For The Money, which is arguably the most busted card in the game right now even moreso than POTM. But I'm telling you guys, 18 attacks per 60 cards with no 4CCs makes math a lot easier as well. Just something to keep in mind.

Very good discussion, this is what I wanted, specific tech discussion not generic tier rankings! That was my original point, specificity is far more useful than generalizing.

The discussion is going strong. Let me address some comments:

@sir_shajir: Cassandra* sure has some potential with Temujin** 's Combo strings, but I have concerns about her survivability. Having only 20 health means you have little room for error, and to boot, she has to purposefully nerf the blocks on her attacks in order to get her E going at full capacity, which means that you have less access to the nice blocks that attacks are starting to be known for. Paid to Protect , Stand Off , and The Ultimate Team help out a lot, but with how few turns a typical NewFS game lasts (usually 3-6 turns by my experience), I'm not sure the extra card in hand is worth losing that much vitality compared to Astrid or James Hata ** . Feel free to prove me wrong, though.

Also, even if Yi Shan** won Worlds , people still wouldn't rank him at S Tier ; it would be mostly attributed to the player's skill. I wouldn't (and won't) rank Omar any higher than he is, unless he gets an answer to MAC. Jon Herr* is a little more subjective, but his symbols need to give him something to work with, if you ask me...

@protoaddict: The reason why is because while Twilight Embrace bears some similarities to Ira-Spinta , it is no I-Spin . I'll abound on this:

1. It doesn't block, which is a real issue for a 6/25 character in NewFS .

2. Its non-combo E is not guaranteed, which makes blocking it worthwhile, and I wouldn't be above hoarding a high block to stuff it if I'm playing ZD .

3. It's 6 difficulty, which means you can't hard-check it in NewFS , unless you run character blocks, which presents its own set of issues.

4. It's the only real threat she has in her line-up, which makes hoarding blocks for it even easier.

The good news is that the effect is a more powerful means of removal, and is at less (aka no) cost to you, but it's not enough to get her out of the basement if you ask me. If you have results or a deck designed differently, I'll consider it.

@Shinji: I know; that's why they're on the same tier. I do think it's better than anything on the B Tier right now, though. If you have anything you want to share with regards to that, feel free.

@VikramS: Told you; tier discussions breed specific tech discussion, when you press people for details on a particular character's placement.

I have to agree with Lord Aggro and Vik: This is one of the best discussions i've read in a long while!

A couple thoughts and observations...1) Lu Chen** is much better than y'all are giving him credit for. A friend of mine just built a very annoying Lu Chen deck that, if you haven't killed by T3, you are relegated to playing one attack - and in many cases, one card - per turn. If you aren't a Reversal deck, then it can be a lot like playing vs Ruler of Southtown Guile. You CAN get around this by playing backward: Foundations before Attacks on your turn, but it isn't an easy way to go. And, for the record, Lu Chen WILL be packing anti-committal, and makes Paul Phoenix and other decks that rely on Stun, cry.

In Lu Chen's case, you are looking at staring down 8 and 9 damage Reversals on your turn, and then a Wrath of Heaven on Lu's turn.

2) Heihachi...as good as advertised. Absurd Strength on a stick is pretty **** good, imo. Low vitality characters will have a constant uphill battle vs this Old Man, since his damage pump alone is always at least 1/3 of their overall health.

3) Christie Monteiro...I cannot argue her ranking, as i think the main problem with her at the moment isn't necessarily that she is too slow to be a straight up Aggro deck, which her stats suggest she should be. I think the main problem with her is that she is so locked into her one theme: SSS Loop with Path of the Master. There isn't enough support for her to do anything other than this at the moment, although i think she will be better in the future. She IS fun to play, however, and that is a saving grace for this character.

Anywhoo...more later...my 2 cents worth for the moment.

If speed is the best thing out there right now what about Kisheri off of Death? It may be the fastest Launcher-Breaker Combo out there. Not to mention access to Cursed Blood which IMO is one of the best cards in the format. With a bunch of discard options at her disposal (Cold and Indefferent is dumb!!!), Path draw response off of Knight Breaker and Wipe the Floor and with O Castle readying stuff for further onslaught 18 vitality may not matter.

Sorta off topic.... but is it me or does going first matter more then ever?

VikramS said:

Siegfried > Cassie

Cassie = +4 speed to all attacks by saving a Lifter in hand (and is, at that point, more than likely being ran off of Fire)
Siegfried = +4 speed and +4 damage to all attacks by having 2 assets out (and even if the damage ends up being 2-3 in some scenarios, that's still free damage)

Sieggy has 8 more life, reps Life better than Cassie reps Fire, and like I said, can give damage buffs to the attacks as well.

And people say Life doesn't have a consistant kill? Pssht, Sieggy's strings never pass 5 diff.

I'm with Shinji on this one... provided that Siggy draws into his precious assets, which presents a timing issue, but still, the damage is always there, and sometimes you don't need the speed to kill. And he and Ivy* are the face of Life at the moment, hands down.

@NintendoMan: It sure is one of the best ways to abuse Launcher - Breaker (which IMHO was made more with 7 HS in mind anyway). But that 18 life is a bit of a liability; people can and will go for the throat against you on a consistent basis, which means your defense had better be up to snuff. Also remember that even Crushing Embrace - Laucher - Breaker all going unblocked (good luck with that one; Crushing Embrace almost always will be blocked) only comes in for 24; you need a bit more than that to kill a 6 HS character, so it's not a sure shot (and running 2 attacks without blocks like that is a no-no for me; I'd rather have Flooded-Nile Throw at leadoff, so the damage at unblocked drops to 23).

And yeah, going first is definitely a bigger benefit that before, but it still pales to the benefit offered in games like Yu-Gi-Oh!, where there is no drawback to going first. At least they take your Review Step away here.

Don't forget people... there's 3 symbols on a character and their cards...

Dual-symboling is but a dream to some right now, but it can be done.

LordAggro said:

Eh, let's not muddy it up here =/

Drawing into said assets isn't hard when you're packing 2-3 of each. Personally, I like 3 Drossel, 2 Twilight and 2 Robes, but you can ditch the 2 Twilight and up the Robes to 3.

I just don't really like Cassandra. I built one off Life to be different, but yeah, she's no Sieggy, and I switched my jank Yi Shan into a jank Siegfried, and it wins way more than it loses, a big change from the before (no offense).

My Siegfried reverses with 11 damage (minimum) Chi Disruptors, to all you haters >:|

Homme Chapeau said:

Cough. My now tri-symbol (been working on the perfect numbers to the angst of my entire playgroup for 3 weeks) Hilde is 23/24 matches of tourney (non-testing) play, 5 straight tourney wins. Formerly 2 symbol I have manged to get the ounce of the 3rd symbol that I need to get all of my deadly pieces in play relatively consistently. Don't get me wrong, the fire is predominent and is 63/69 cards, but it is still techincally a tri-symbol deck ^^. With some work it will be 60/66 cards fire and an even higher level of consistency.

Going first matters less imo, becuase most decks run more attacks than before, meaning unless the opening hand is beautiful (so many 6 hsers...) the 3 check can stop a 4 card play short. Again, just my opinion.

Cassandra is better than Siegfried in most cases, I'm quie curious if anyone who says different has built and played as both. Not to bash Sieg, he is still very good, just not as consistent as 7hs fire with draw and better redux all around...

- dut

dutpotd said:

I tried it with King... but Earth has everything I need. However, the two other decks I plan on building are both dual-symbol, Ivy off Life/Void and Zhao Daiyu off Death/Evil.

Then again, I don't see what has Order and not Fire on it, but that's it being 2:30 AM here.

Homme Chapeau said:

... Box topper Tekken... Cursed Blood... Nina's attack... Promo foundation (Newcomers)

Homme Chapeau said:

Earth does not have everything King needs. King needs to prevent the opposing character from drawing (and truly taking advantage of a 'shown' hand - as well as nixing all that hard work with King of the Ring and Twist combos...) i.e. please consider splashing MAC, there are a lot of very good Earth Void cards.

- dut

dutpotd said:

A good Life Siegfried should be running his Hilt Impacts and Tiger Claws; Stand Off will get to be used only so much, and I hate when people list Paid as "damage redux", because it only works if you have keywords in the hand to reveal, and that number, thus, varies (it also reveals your hand, so...)

Cassie is blessed with 2 more life than most 7 handers, but Sieg's 8 more is that much more important, and as I said, while Fire DOES have it's aggro, it isn't without its cost (except in the case of Hungry for Battle). Sieg has his generally free +2-4 with no restriction on what types of attacks they may be, as well as access to Regretful existence, and of course Robes-Drossel, which give the same effect as Cassie's Lifter combo.

You say Cassie has better draw (and she does)
I say Siegfried has more health. You can Relentless/Financial all you want, but you're gonna have to block (and good luck using Lifter lol). My Sieg may or may not have to worry about blocking at his health.

And yes, for once, I have experience on both ends. Fire and Life play absolutely nothing alike, but since the character of Cassandra plays so similarly to Siegfried, I think Life 'fried has more success than Fire Cassie, especially since Siegfried has no rivals, whereas Cassie has Paul, Astrid, and James Hata for starters...

MarcoPulleaux said:

Sorry, what??? Cassandra does not play similar to Siegfried. Not at all. One Ultimate team will make up 8 vitality in a count of half a turn...

Siegfried has no rivals? Are you drunk? Sieg is generic (for all intents and purposes) mountain or life character. All he really offers is +3-5 damage to every attack. How is a simple damage pump anything 'unrivaled'??? Even Astrid 'as much as she is so simple she's dull' has reversals...

Sigh.

I don't think you know what you are talking about, but this isn't anything new.

- dut

Edit- I'll say it again, as I say in most threads, standoff is not a good damge redux card. In fact, it isn't even that good of a card. Please stop referenicng it as something that is able to do anything on a consistent basis.

MarcoPulleaux said:

So Polio what has your area's top 4 or top 8 been like for the past month and a bit (since rotation hit) since you seem to have such a " strong " opinion of what is and isn't worth playing, so your area must run lots of decks (playing with yourself doesn't count)

kiit said:

lol best statement all day. High five to you sir

Sigh... I want to laugh even though it's wrong to take pleasure in the put downs of others.

There really is no point in playing order in the current meta. Fire gives you more options and stronger cards and many of the cards order has share or have the fire symbol. When the new set comes out I'm sure that it will have order cards that don't have fire and it will have more options in deckmaking. Evil also has a similar dilema in that it shares too many cards with chaos and death... Water has these issues with regards to life simply having the same card pool with more option. As the card pool increases i suspect deck making will get weird... people will make odd choices to ensure that PotM is kept at an optimum damage or they will have to forget avout the card all together as I am having issues making the card work in certain decks (ei some death decks I am working on as the greater attacks only share death and not much else) .

sir_shajir said:

isn't is that water has no cards (other then a couple of promo characters) that don't have life other than one of King's Cobra combo throws

sir_shajir said:

Evil is in a better position than Good, Order and Water, if only because Nightmare had the decency of not having Chaos and Cervantes, Death.

dutpotd said:

Like I said in the thread, I'm not at the point of the deck where Dual-symbol is being considered, but MAC will probably make it in. I mean... hell, why not? Fortunately I think I've two playsets lying around so one goes in Zhao Daiyu, the other goes in King as soon as I can find the right balance and cull out the weak foundations that ain't doing much.

dutpotd said:

Ultimate Team won't make up for 8 vitality, not for anybody who can push damage past it.
Siegfried has no rivals as in no other Life character (Ivy, Cassie, Christie, Lu Chen, Yi Shan, Tira) is better off Life than he is. Last I checked, Astrid doesn't have Life.

Yeah, Stand Off is a horrible card. Guess that's why it saw tremendous play at SAS, and why the guy who got 3rd with King said, "I packed my deck with as much Stun as possible because I anticipated a lot of Stand Off, and I was right."

Stand Off may not be reliable damage redux, but it's a reliable good card that everybody who CAN run it does in 4s.