Is it just me or does a 40 page instruction guide seem a bit much. I love games but I have come to the point where a game that takes all day to learn is more a chore thanfun. Games with rules like this often tend to require the players to go back to over and over again because it is just too complicated? What about a big box game with lots of bit, lots of fun and EASY to learn and play?

I was actually hoping for at least 48 pages, which is the size of the Twilight Imperium rulebook. Remember that a lot of pages are taken up by the index, charts, and advertisements. I like a beefy game.

ioticus said:

My wife doesn't - so I can't have any more beans

40 pages isn't much. Consider that FFG makes very tall, pictured examples. The rules themselves take mostly half of the book at most.

gdherdter said:

I like games with a lot of bits. I also like games that are easy to learn. In my experience, the two very seldom intersect. A lot of bits means a lot of rules to tell you what all those bits do. FFG, in particular, is not known for making simple games. At least not in the big boxes. I love FFG games up and down the street, but simple they generally ain't. This is something you should be aware of before buying into their products. If you want simple, stick to the smaller box games. These big epic-sized boxes are as much a warning of what you're getting into as they are a means to store all the fiddly bits inside =)

To answer your question, no 40 pages doesn't seem too much to me. In fact, I'd rather prefer it were longer since a game this big will undoubtedly take a lot of words to explain clearly.

gdherdter said:

I'd have to say it's just you. I could read rulebooks all day.

The first read through might be a bit time comsuming, but as the most FFG Productions have shown:

The Rules Click together

The Turnsequence can be summarised on a sheet of paper (or as Quickrefference on the Back of the Booklet)

Most of the Rules are pretty Pictures that help you understand what is going on (and thus helping you to remember them better).

Most of the Material will tell you when to use it "Use this Card in your Upkeep Phase" and what it does "Archers Shoot Twice" "Draw more Battle Cards" or something similar

And if nothing helps... something ist unclear: Ask the Community, Ask your Mates.... or Houserule it so that it makes sense to you (it is your game after all)

Reading the Rules with your Gaming Buddys (or sending them the link to the online rules pdf) is part of the Fun (and can speed up the first game night...).... and rule disputes are part of the expirience. After the first few plays the rulebook will stay in the box.

if they would only provide a GOOD INSERT to organize all the bits.. now that would really help!

strayknife said:

Same here. 40 pages only ? bring me a hundred pages one ! As I said in another thread (forgot where), one of the very first pleasure in present-times-games is - after opening the box and discovering and manipulating all of its wonderful components - to read and read and read the rules booklet night and day, in transports, in bed, and all. It is like a novel l

It'll be hard to find players for such a new FFG-tanky game, but come on, TI3 in a fantasy (runebound) world ? I'm in. Definitely watching closely the future of this game. Cheers.

I always garbage the insert, whether it is plastic or paper. I purchase bags and those neat little plastic boxes. I don't want an unflexible insert. Of course, they can make one that fits your needs and I throw it away regardless ^^

Hem said:

Well you dont think that a reason you dont find players are because of the thick rulebooks noone (except some extra nerds) want to learn?

superklaus said:

I can't speak for him, but I know the reason I find it hard to put on the table has nothing to do with the complexity, but just that it's hard to find players to commit 6 hours to a game (or finding 6 hours to commit myself).

I'd rather have a meaty, complex game that gets on the table occasionally than a shadow of what it COULD have been, watered down simply to appease the masses.

superklaus said:

Nope, I don't. Because 1) Be reassured, I find players, especially because 2) I am the only one taking time to learn the rules, and then 3) I teach to my friends who want to play these fabulous games and I do it during the begining of a new game, so everything is really smooth. And I am sorry, but in our times, you buy a game with a single sheet rules booklet.... man, there are many chances (not a hundred percent obviously) your game is boring. You want to play during a snack before diner ? you play a tiny game, with one page rules. You want to spend four hours during the afternoon with friends gathered around a table and a fabulous product which may NOT be a role playing game BUT a board game ? you'll have to get these complex and rich (but not complicated, that's the trick) rules, or else, you'll get bored after an hour of it.

- in other words, I second sigmazero that is, not the part about commiting myself, eh ? the part just before

A good rule book is great reading material & FFG recent ones ME Quest & CitOW have been very clear & organized.I never got into RB but this game has me interested.Before I commit a C Note I'll need to find out a lot more but I'm hoprful about this one.

OD

A fourty pages rulebook isn't the problem for me.

What bothers me is the fact that FFG never amkes any summaries one the side of a page (and those pages are big enough most of the times) or at least some great index.

So most of the time when you need the rule of a specific bit of the game (which is a bit out of the context of a main rule... if you understand what I mean) you are busy flipping pages and cross reading...

I haven't give up hope that FFG will do that one day or another. Maybe with this game? :oD

If they don't, someone on BGG inevitably will make such a summary

At least Chaos in the Old World got an index. So I hope for some index in Runewars too.

Hem said:

You are obviously a fan of thick rulebooks. In the 90ties I was too. In those days I was playing - among others - two of the most complex games one could imagine. "Advanced Squad Leader" and "The longest day" from AH (with about 3.500 counters). One of these wargames is more complex than all FFG games ever made together and 1 game of TLD could last for 1 full week or more. But nowadays I am older, dont have much time and I just want to play simpler games. So I am enjoying the simple small games of FFG and I even detect that a 48pager (at which I would just have snobbily loughed at in those days) is more than enough for my current taste. I had my part on some of the most complex games mankind created, in my life. I dont want to repeat this.

Wow holy poo, one week ? what are these ! tell us more, that sounds plain crazy. But I understand the time limit, obviously.

I hate these counter games. Not due to their complexity, but to their apparent lack of asthetic qualities. The eye has its fair share playing with FFG games, while with those counter-monsters, it's a very boring sight.

Stefan said:

yes of course its not the production quality of FFG games. But some of these complex games are quite beautiful to look at. (at least IMO) Not the older ones of course.

For hem:

just try out the following links

http://grognard.com/#intro (this is one of the most complete collections of wargames available on the net, alphabetically just look for "longest day" and Advanced Squad Leader)

http://www.locknloadgame.com/ (a more modern wargame, a little bit simpler but still crunchy games)

http://www.gmtgames.com/s-2-p500.aspx (a traditional wargaming company)

I hope this helps a little bit understanding of WHAT monsters I am coming from and why I prefer nowadays the simpler games of FFG.

I remember the first (and only) time I played Fed and Empire. I fell asleep after an hour of set up, slept for a good three hours and when I woke up my buddies were STILL SETTING UP. We hadn't even reached the point of buying starting units yet. That was a game that was clearly designed to be played over a course of weeks. On the one hand I can respect the kind of detail a game like that must go into, but on the other hand I don't have the attention span to keep current in something like that. So there definitely are upward limits on how big a game can be, at least for me. But I don't think a 40-page rulebook is necessarily too much. Nor do I think that the length of the rulebook is necessarily a good indicator of whether a game is too long or not. To be sure, more rules = more options = more play time, but depending on how those rule interact, the game could move very slowly or surprisingly quick.

There is not necessarily a connection between complex rules and gametime. Diplomacy, for example, has very very simple rules, but takes a long long time.

Wow, I saw pictures from The Longest Day game from 1979.....man.... it really looks more like some cartographics works, like, in napoleon times... I don't think I could have any fun with that nowadays...

Just looked up some pictures at BGG. Man, never ever would I try this one! I'm often called crazy by my environment for the complex games I'm playing, but this is too much even for me. It's more simulation than game, and I never could abide them in videogames already, much less in boardgames. That stuff is really more than complex.