people in this thread seem to have missed that they appear to be continuing the storyline from the "current" point in time, at least in so much as there will be an Empire and Colonies, which is to say there will be 9 clans. Whether they are all mechanically represented, and how that happens, is anyone's guess, but hoping to back to Clan Wars era 7 or what have you is wishful thinking.

the only way we get any number != 9 is by going forward, which will by necessity start with 9.

Just because clans exist, even retaining their great clan status, doesn't mean they have to be represented as a clan in the game. It's trivially easy to come up with story reasons for a great clan not to be terribly concerned with whatever the conflict in question is.

(And again, this leaves room to add clans in expansions.)

you're wrong but thats cool and i was taking expansions into account.

It's true, I was wrong. It would probably be better if they never expanded past 6, but I suppose you can't have everything.

We roll as planned, yes-yes. We start with 8 Clans. Who get cut? Obvious, Mantis.

Mantis will come in later and be rebuilt and reintroduced. Yet it won't be repeat of Day of Thunder, no-no.

We simply continue story, anything else is just bad-bad.

people in this thread seem to have missed that they appear to be continuing the storyline from the "current" point in time, at least in so much as there will be an Empire and Colonies, which is to say there will be 9 clans. Whether they are all mechanically represented, and how that happens, is anyone's guess, but hoping to back to Clan Wars era 7 or what have you is wishful thinking.

the only way we get any number != 9 is by going forward, which will by necessity start with 9.

Just because clans exist, even retaining their great clan status, doesn't mean they have to be represented as a clan in the game. It's trivially easy to come up with story reasons for a great clan not to be terribly concerned with whatever the conflict in question is.

(And again, this leaves room to add clans in expansions.)

Definitely, mechanically and narratively are two different things, and just because theres X clans in the story doesn't mean that all X will be playable right away. My point was mostly that expecting the clans will be pared down to the original 6/7/whatever is a pipe dream given the structure of the clans in the current timeline.

people in this thread seem to have missed that they appear to be continuing the storyline from the "current" point in time, at least in so much as there will be an Empire and Colonies, which is to say there will be 9 clans. Whether they are all mechanically represented, and how that happens, is anyone's guess, but hoping to back to Clan Wars era 7 or what have you is wishful thinking.

the only way we get any number != 9 is by going forward, which will by necessity start with 9.

FFG did not allude to keeping the current story at all. Its a mess anyways and only a whole sale reboot would benefit the story.

One of the biggest challenges I think FFG will face is that I've never seen a game with more faction loyalty than L5R. I think that if they underestimate that, they'll be in for a surprise. I can already say that I probably won't buy a set that doesn't have the Scorpion Clan in it. I'm sure there are people who feel the same way about each of the clans. I mean I was pretty frustrated and bummed that I couldn't put a banner in my signature or make my profile picture my mon, if they go axing or combining Clans, what will that be like?

Nobody's suggesting to remove clans from the narrative (yet). But for the initial release, you'd want to pare down from 9 to prevent too much overlap. Besides, they need something to release in expansions.

Crab: Low Honor/Military
Lion: High Honor/Military

Crane: High Honor/Intrigue
Scorpion: Low Honor/Intrigue

Dragon: High Honor/Mysticism
Horde: Low Honor/Mysticism.

Pretty much covers all the core narratives of the Rokugan setting. LCGs have an absolutely glacial pace of new content (60 cards a quarter, with a not-higher-than-CCG-%-of-relevance), so there's no way they will ever make everyone happy with how they approach the clans. Each clan right now has a plethora of core themes and strategies that is simply untenable in such limited design pipeline.

Cutting down to these factions, you lose
Unicorn: That Clan Whose Defining Feature Is "Not Fitting In With the Setting" and "Having a Trait That's Nearly Mechanically Impossible to Balance"
Phoenix: Pacifists and doormats who spend a whole lot of time and energy to do nothing. Also, their design space has always been "Effects that are either worthless or broken," which is a horrible design space.
Mantis: Minor Clan Scum, and another "Our theme is being different!" Their design space is "reusable murder, and free money" which is, again, horrible.
...but gain a better focus on the core of the setting's story-telling, and can more richly explore the design space of a smaller number of clans.

Shadowlands as a playable faction again? Yes please!

Yeah... I think not releasing all 9 at once would be a mistake. Not only would you alienate fans, but it unbalances any faction added later, remember lcg cards release slower and last longer in terms of rotation.

It took I think a year or so for martell and greyjoy to have any sort of viable deck, and 2 years for there to be anything but one deck type for Greyjoy. (Martell on the other hand got the highest restricted card count I think).

Hence why all the factions were released in 1/2 decks for the core set in 2.0

They have 2 years to figure out how to do it.

Yeah... I think not releasing all 9 at once would be a mistake. Not only would you alienate fans, but it unbalances any faction added later, remember lcg cards release slower and last longer in terms of rotation.

It took I think a year or so for martell and greyjoy to have any sort of viable deck, and 2 years for there to be anything but one deck type for Greyjoy. (Martell on the other hand got the highest restricted card count I think).

Hence why all the factions were released in 1/2 decks for the core set in 2.0

They have 2 years to figure out how to do it.

It's really not that difficult to get a new faction, added after the core release, up to speed.

Especially in a game like L5R, where they can use the same action cards and holdings and so forth, and only need new personalities.

Dedicate half a premium expansion to personalities for the new clan, and voila. That's what, 20? 25? i'd be shocked if any of the core clans had more than that after the core box and a cycle of packs. Maybe put part of the rest toward actions and holdings geared toward that clan, and they're up to speed.

I'd rather start with fewer clans and more options for those clans than more clans and less flexibility for each.

I mean, I'd rather have fewer clans full stop. But you know, if we *must* have more.

I'm hoping for 8-10. Sure there isn't any real room for each clan to have more than one theme, but out of the gate I think that's less of an issue than trying to decide who has to sit on the sidelines for a year or so. I'm excited.

If FFG would continue with the Onyx timeline, then I suggest to keep all the Clans except the Spider and the Mantis.

The Spider already control the Empire, so maybe an overarcing goal of the LCG game would be how the remaining Clans would use their resources to topple the Dark Emperor, and how the shattered Mantis's resources can be used by the Clans to develop their own Clan goals.

As A Mantis I want my clan first and foremost but I do want all the clans in the starters. Having expansions with Ratling, Naga and Shadowlands could be cool add ins to current decks for splashing or making solid solo decks. I also win conditions with tweaking remain as it would be weird to play L5R with no provinces and one deck.

I am sorry fellas, but all of the clans need to stay. With exception of the spider, however if they do go away, they need to bring back shadowlands horde. All the Clans are important to the story, all clans have loyalty. This isn't magic the gathering, I play unicorn because I am a unicorn player, I will play unicorn whether is top or bottom tier, with no exception.

I see no reason to cut clans, except for initinitial release. Spider/Shadowlands has to make the cut, though. They are the bad guy faction, and people like that. Maybe proceed with the nuke-Mantis plan and not bring Naga back?

I see no reason to cut clans, except for initinitial release. Spider/Shadowlands has to make the cut, though. They are the bad guy faction, and people like that. Maybe proceed with the nuke-Mantis plan and not bring Naga back?

I can take or leave Shadowlands/Spider, but if your'e going to add clans through expansions, they seem like an obvious choice to hold back.

So much so that it's how the game originally launched, IIRC.

As a player our game is only L5R so long as each of the clans are represented and playable under FFG to cut even one clan is to call the game something else.

There is actually a very good reason to not cut any clan which is the playerbase. FFG will not launch a completly unkown Game but relaunch a Game which has many current and former players.

So if you cut a clan this will most likely drive the players who like the clan away cause Iam sure there will be many changes to the card mechnics and other stuff and change is nothing most people lie

therefore cuting a clan will reduce the players willing to buy the new product cause they have less reasons to stay and not switch to other products. Also it will reduce the lieklyhood of the former players

of this clan will reenter the Game cause the reason for them is gone if you cut the clan in question.

In addtion to that less clans mean also a smaler target group cause you reduce the angles you can approach the game. Currently we have 9 different ways: mystic (Dragon), Cavalaray ( Unicorn), Tactical (Lion), Ranged Combat (Mantis), The Darkside (Spider), manipulative (Scorpion), time to duel (Crane), the Ways of Magic (Phoenix) and the Way of Strenght (Crab).

So we have a theme for nearly any approache you can have to the Game. If a clan will be removed it effectively will remove a approach to the game and limit the target group. Like if you remvoe the Mantis people who liek pirates and archers will be less intrested in buying the game. Therefore AEG also did not kill the Mantis but wanted to just remove the Clan holdings and provide Senseis instead so they could keep the potnetial target group big enough.

Therefore cutting a clan is nothing I think FFG would desire.

Nine factions is an awful lot for an LCG at launch. With that said, they just did a launch with 8 factions, and is there really that big a difference? Probably not, but you still have to draw the line somewhere.

The current storyline sees the Mantis about to get virtually wiped out, and then Jigoku about to take over the Empire. That storyline was, I believe, planned as a back to basics move with a true Horde faction left at the end. And that was the most popular choice among Spider Clan players when they were given the option to maybe head somewhere different with their Clan.

So it's pretty easy to drop down to 7 factions for an initial release. No Mantis, no Shadowlands. One Clan down, seven Clans against an evil overlord. Then you can do something like WH40K Conquest did with the Tyranids, and have Shadowlands dropped as a faction in the first deluxe expansion. You could even give the Shadowlands its own special faction mixing rules, like the Tyranids have (although completely different in substance from how the Tyranids work).

I've been playing Unicorn (Ki-Rin) since 1995. I like my Mongolian Horde analogue. They were one of the first six available clans and it is odd to see outsiders consider them second tier.

I am hoping for 8 factions, similar to the new GoT. However, there are currently 9 factions in the CCG game and around 16 to pick from throughout the game's history. I agree that 9 seems like too many for the base set because of the current deck construction rules. However, with the rules overhaul, I think it would be wise for FFG to keep the existing 9 factions if at all possible. Spider might turn into a general "shourido samurai mixed with oni" faction and those players might be okay with that. If any clan were to be cut, then that would be truly gut wrenching for the player bases of those clans. It has been done before and it is not pretty. Clan loyalty with this game runs tattoo-worthy.

That being said, I'm so glad that new people are starting to look into a setting that has brought me joy for most of my life. I hope the themes and exoticism spark your imagination.

• Crab
  
• Crane
  
• Dragon
  
• Lion
  
• Phoenix
  
• Scorpion
  
• Unicorn
  

This provides a wide range of game mechanics to cope with diversity and playability.

Indeed, if any cuts were to be made, it's essential that the seven Core Clans (Crab, Crane, Dragon, Lion, Phoenix, Scorpion and Unicorn) remain in the game. They are simply too intertwined with one another to be simply cut out.

To these seven I'd add an Unaligned/Ronin faction, where you'd have the Mantis, the Minor Clans, the Ronins, the Imperials...

Shadowlands I think would be great as an addon later on.

I really like the Spider Clan/Shaodwlands and it is the faction I like to play th most at least in the current CCG. The reason for it is simple I really liked them back at celestial Edition and hope they would return to how they were than - the stupid undead deck. So sinister and field control with maho, dark virtue and printed kills.

I really liked the scropion before the hate of some players killed the control aspect of the TCG so maybe if they get back combo and contol aspects into the game I would be not that concerend about the Shaodwlands.

Not ever group in L5R (or even Great Clan) needs to be a playable Faction in every conflict. Toturi's Army's time came and went. I'll admit it, though it pains me.

I think, at it's core, the L5R brand is about a core of the Great Clans resolving around the Emperor. Each clan with a distinct positive relationship with the Emperor that creates conflicts / rivalries for influence needs to be represented.

These Inner Clans are as follows:

- The Lion Clan

- The Crane Clan

- The Scorpion Clan

These clans are the lifeblood of the military, social, and political culture that defines the core of Rokguan. They've been being played against one another by the Otomo Family for over 1,000 years.

The Fixture Clans are as follows:

- The Crab Clan

- The Phoenix Clan

These clans have been part of Rokugan for its entire history and perform functions within the society that are core to the brand's identity. Man's relationship with the Shadowlands and Magic are epitomized by the struggles of the Crab and Phoenix. They are always present in the conflicts and struggles of every age, even if they aren't usually directly interested in picking fights over the socio-political landscape themselves.

The above "Core 5 Clans" represent the static internal conflicts of the mainland Empire in every age.

All the other Factions in L5R have been vehicles to deliver specific dynamic conflicts into the story. Various flavors of Shadowlands / Spider have emerged as universal antagonists to tell various stories about Rokugan's relationship with Jigoku. Yoritomo's Alliance, Toturi's Army, the Naga, and the Brotherhood of Shinsei all mobilitized in response to Yogo Junzo's Army. The Mantis Clan and the Unicorn Clan have persisted as a way of assimilating alien elements into Rokugan - like Steepes culture, piracy, sea-monsters, etc. The Dragon Clan were known for being extremely removed from conflicts for most of Rokugan's history, descending from the mountains for mysterious purposes and then disappearing once again.

You don't need all of these factions to be independently playable in a given story arc for L5R. Trying to cram everyone in and keep everyone balanced and happy with their own strongholds was a major draw-back of rolling out new strongholds as game expansions.

Pick a conflict. Pick the major players in the conflict. Let everyone else show up within that context as appropriate. You don't need a Stronghold / Faction Deck / whatever to have storylines inside a conflict. Introduce a new conflict on a cyclical basis as well. I'm not going to pitch a fit because there's no Toturi's Army anymore or because the Lion Clan doesn't have a Faction Deck in a story-arc about fighting over the fate of the Imperial Colonies or something. Let it come naturally. Leave the "Every Faction Must Feature Equally At All Times!" shoe-horn behind when you pick up the IP.

Just my 2 koku.

Marty Lund

Monkey Clan