To sum up in a nut shell

You: There is a problem with the balance of the game!!! Here's my new house rule to fix it!!!!

Us: That's not a problem, but lets humor you. Assuming that it's really a problem this is how you fix it.

You: That doesn't involve my house rule, why aren't you guys talking about balancing the game.

Us: We did, we just found an easier way to fix a non problem before it even actually becomes a problem.

You: Help me balance the game.

Us: ........

I think the real problem here is he doesn't want to see it as a problem of the People.

He wants the Game to make Up For the Laziness of the people and Make the Game Force Gms to Allow something not needed to allow Him to change his character when he decides it isn't as Uber as he would like.

Also I don't even think he Actually Reads all of peoples responses... Only the parts that say We do or don't agree.

If you feel that the game is already balanced as best as it can be then I'm not going to be able to convince you that it isn't.

Please refrain from posting that we shouldn't even consider ways we can make the game better.

It does not help with the discussion.

I appreciate everyone's input into this topic, but let's have a constructive discussion. Thank you!

In order to have a constructive conversation on this you would likely have to actually follow our advice instead of telling us you don't like our solution and want us to use yours. We are not going to do that. We are going to tell you the solution that fixes the problem. which is to allow a respec. And an important note narrative wise no one in the game world can see the character sheets. So no it will not really effect the narrative like you claim.

Which then creates a problem therein and of itself. If new players are playing in a game that uses this house rule, and all of them follow the rule, then they would all be not getting as many successes or advantages then they would from following the original rules. See the problem?

Good point!

But if they follow the house rule they have the option of spending points on characteristics now or later.

If you spend points on characteristics you will have higher chances of success and advantages (see Math: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/187594-characteristic-modification-after-character-creation/?p=1798257 )

So some players will build skills and succeed less and get advantages less and others will build characteristics and be better.

The game isn`t imbalanced, because the game isn`t about having the most powerful and effective character. And even if you have less characteristics, you will have more skills and talents, which are cheaper, so what`s the problem?

Failing and threats are fun too btw...

Is it before the game started? This is very important. Please please please read it:

The GM and players should get together before the campaign starts and create characters together. The GM and the experienced players can tell everyone to spend XP on characteristics.

After the game started? Let the new player try again.

What is wrong with these options?

I think the real problem here is he doesn't want to see it as a problem of the People.

He wants the Game to make Up For the Laziness of the people and Make the Game Force Gms to Allow something not needed to allow Him to change his character when he decides it isn't as Uber as he would like.

Thanks! I agree, the game can help fill the gap.

Also I don't even think he Actually Reads all of peoples responses... Only the parts that say We do or don't agree.

Really? There's hundreds of posts that I'm combing through and trying my best to respond to them all. Really? That's unnecessarily rude.

Which then creates a problem therein and of itself. If new players are playing in a game that uses this house rule, and all of them follow the rule, then they would all be not getting as many successes or advantages then they would from following the original rules. See the problem?

Good point!

But if they follow the house rule they have the option of spending points on characteristics now or later.

If you spend points on characteristics you will have higher chances of success and advantages (see Math: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/187594-characteristic-modification-after-character-creation/?p=1798257 )

So some players will build skills and succeed less and get advantages less and others will build characteristics and be better.

Which violates the intent of the game and the fact that they intentionally made a talent for upping stats along with a rule about not buying stats after character generation. Which basically breaks the game.

The game isn`t imbalanced, because the game isn`t about having the most powerful and effective character. And even if you have less characteristics, you will have more skills and talents, which are cheaper, so what`s the problem?

Failing and threats are fun too btw...

Math proves otherwise: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/187594-characteristic-modification-after-character-creation/page-10#entry1798257

Guy, you're basically saying 'if you don't agree with me, stop posting'.

It's like that stamp-collecting metaphor. I want to collect stamps, please don't tell people in the thread that they can't, please talk about stamp collecting, not about how dumb it is to try stamp collecting

If you feel that the game is already balanced as best as it can be then I'm not going to be able to convince you that it isn't.

Please refrain from posting that we shouldn't even consider ways we can make the game better.

Obvious troll is obvious.

And reported.

The game isn`t imbalanced, because the game isn`t about having the most powerful and effective character. And even if you have less characteristics, you will have more skills and talents, which are cheaper, so what`s the problem?

Failing and threats are fun too btw...

Math proves otherwise: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/187594-characteristic-modification-after-character-creation/page-10#entry1798257

That is a very very narrow interpretation. It also does not take into account that different builds with be effective at different things. It also ignored the effect of talents etc. I have been playing this game since the beta. You solution is not a solution. It breaks the game. No matter how many times you claim the game is imbalanced. It will not convince those of us that it is imbalanced.

How bout you use the suggestion we have been making for..what page are we on now? 16. We have been telling you the fix for 16 pages. Respec. That is the fix. Whining about the narrative is BS. No one in the game can see anyones character sheet so no it has no effect on the narrative.

Therein lies your problem. It SHOULDN'T be further balanced, so you are not going to find many people here that can help you.

If you're only going to say that the game shouldn't be changed then you're not helping the discussion

I want to figure out how to further balance the game - not if it should be further balanced than it already is.

Please read my post a little closer.

I am telling you that if you are going to restrict the discussion to only allow posts that discuss how (not if) it should be changed, no one will continue posting.

The idea is that then people who want to discuss ways that the game can be further improved can talk without others screaming that it can't be done or that it's futile.

If you feel that the game is already balanced as best as it can be then I'm not going to be able to convince you that it isn't.

Please refrain from posting that we shouldn't even consider ways we can make the game better.

Obvious troll is obvious.

And reported.

Wait - what for?

Therein lies your problem. It SHOULDN'T be further balanced, so you are not going to find many people here that can help you.

If you're only going to say that the game shouldn't be changed then you're not helping the discussion

I want to figure out how to further balance the game - not if it should be further balanced than it already is.

Please read my post a little closer.

I am telling you that if you are going to restrict the discussion to only allow posts that discuss how (not if) it should be changed, no one will continue posting.

The idea is that then people who want to discuss ways that the game can be further improved can talk without others screaming that it can't be done or that it's futile.

That would require your suggestion to be considered an improvement. It is not. Largely because your rule actually breaks the balance and makes certain talents that are supposed to be valuable not valuable. Dedication is supposed to be valuable. That is part of the reason for the not buying stats after character gen rule. Your rule is effectively allowing cheating.

The game isn`t imbalanced, because the game isn`t about having the most powerful and effective character. And even if you have less characteristics, you will have more skills and talents, which are cheaper, so what`s the problem?

Failing and threats are fun too btw...

Math proves otherwise: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/187594-characteristic-modification-after-character-creation/page-10#entry1798257

No, the math doesn't even demonstrate a problem, let alone prove it. The math simply demonstrates an inequality, which you have chosen to interpret as a problem. That's different.

I, too, would interpret as a problem if it led to players not having fun .

And assuming there is a problem, there are at least 3 1/2 solutions floated for it, and clear evidence that the preferred solution is really subjective and conditional on the table.

@Desslok:

Yeah, after 6 weeks of experience and allowing the players a respec, you figured it out. Given those conditions, yes, I think I agree that "anyone can [figure it out]."

I think the real problem here is he doesn't want to see it as a problem of the People.

He wants the Game to make Up For the Laziness of the people and Make the Game Force Gms to Allow something not needed to allow Him to change his character when he decides it isn't as Uber as he would like.

Thanks! I agree, the game can help fill the gap.

Also I don't even think he Actually Reads all of peoples responses... Only the parts that say We do or don't agree.

Really? There's hundreds of posts that I'm combing through and trying my best to respond to them all. Really? That's unnecessarily rude.

SO he just basically Confirmed he is a Munchkin Player that doesn't really care about the Opinions and experience of others. Only that he gets his way...

Why does this site not have a Dislike Button? Even Facebook has realized that desire and need for this.

At this Point JJ.... You have negated any respect I might have for your opinion until you find a way to redeem yourself.

The Game Does Not Need a Rule To Fix a problem with players and Gms. Let them work that out between themselves.

Letting players rebuild a character because it doesn`t feel right or because of misunderstanding or not understanding rules is more about being a fair gm than houseruling. That said, not everyone wants an optimised character.

Obvious troll is obvious.

And reported.

Wait - what for?

try reading his post as he answered your question in it.

It sounds like the forum has come to a consensus (again https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/187594-characteristic-modification-after-character-creation/?p=1789255 ) that there is a problem when creating characters (that if the GM doesn't fix) and respec-ing is the best option to fix it. I'm willing to end it at that.

Letting players rebuild a character because it doesn`t feel right or because of misunderstanding or not understanding rules is more about being a fair gm than houseruling. That said, not everyone wants an optimised character.

Why does it not feel right? It is the solution that A. Fixes your problem. B. does not devalue talents in the game. C. does not require optimizing. It could be as simple as rejiggering to get the character to work the way the player wants.

Letting players rebuild a character because it doesn`t feel right or because of misunderstanding or not understanding rules is more about being a fair gm than houseruling. That said, not everyone wants an optimised character.

Why does it not feel right? It is the solution that A. Fixes your problem. B. does not devalue talents in the game. C. does not require optimizing. It could be as simple as rejiggering to get the character to work the way the player wants.

Avatar mixup! Two different users with the same avatar.

It sounds like the forum has come to a consensus (again https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/187594-characteristic-modification-after-character-creation/?p=1789255 ) that there is a problem when creating characters (that if the GM doesn't fix) and respec-ing is the best option to fix it. I'm willing to end it at that.

And now I reported you for trolling.

Therein lies your problem. It SHOULDN'T be further balanced, so you are not going to find many people here that can help you.

If you're only going to say that the game shouldn't be changed then you're not helping the discussion

I want to figure out how to further balance the game - not if it should be further balanced than it already is.

You haven't identified a problem. If there is no problem you can not obtain suggestions on how to "further balance" the game.

In order to acheive your goal people would first have to recognize the problem. The problem is that we recognize the problem is not with the game but with the people. Thus all our suggestions for "re balancing the game" as you put it, are ignored.

See math:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/187594-characteristic-modification-after-character-creation/?p=1798257

I did see the math. The math doesn't prove theres a problem. The math just shows that you don't like the difference between two types of character builds. But this doesn't constitute a problem. The math can't prove a problem mostly because everyone has different idea's on whats going to be acceptable difference between two characters.

And this bears repeating, we have suggested solutions to you. You just don't want to accept any solution that doesn't involve changing the game itself. So basically you're screaming BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE all the while implementing a rule that overall screws with the balance of the game. Imbalance doesn't seem to matter when you're the one making the game less balanced.

Letting players rebuild a character because it doesn`t feel right or because of misunderstanding or not understanding rules is more about being a fair gm than houseruling. That said, not everyone wants an optimised character.

Why does it not feel right? It is the solution that A. Fixes your problem. B. does not devalue talents in the game. C. does not require optimizing. It could be as simple as rejiggering to get the character to work the way the player wants.

He actually answered this directly when I posed that question ( here ). I personally disagree with his response for reasons at the end of this post of mine. Basically, I would qualify the respec as the lesser of two evils.

This whole thread is beginning to feel very autistic by the way (which I do not mean as offensive).

Speaking as a person who has scored on the high end of Aspergers (although I have no official diagnosis), I am still somewhat offended by your comment.

Don't be. I have lived with a brother in the autistic spectrum (or perhaps I shoud rephrase that to "all over the autistic spectrum") and this thread reminded me of some of the discussions I had with him...