Squadrons are a topic we love to argue about - please see the 50% of the content of this forum for citation - but it's time for me to beat the crush of flip-floppers we're soon to see and lay an over-the-top prediction on top of your eyeballs.

When we get our hands on Wave 2, the people who have made themselves comfortable with squadrons during the dry times of Wave 1 will be in a fantastic position to slap those of us around who chose the "easy" way of ignoring squadrons.

Assuming the spoiled text we can see is accurate, these forthcoming squadrons are going to bring the pain, leaving many of us to wish we'd taken the time to figure out how to intercept the **** things, or that we'd learned how to send in a wave of bombers to rock some ship socks off.

Can't wait to be proven right.

(Or wrong.)

completely agree.

Well with boosted coms squadrons will be able to activate at long range so thats nice, offensive retrofit on the isd spoiler

Boosted Comms and Rhymer balls.

I'll go one further. From what we've seen of the Rogue keyword, I'm convinced that it's a trap!

Now, don't get me wrong, an independent move and attack is quite powerful. There are certainly some very good uses for that ability, and hopefully it will be appropriately expensive. To get full use out of that ability (frankly, any use at all), you need to avoid activating those squadrons with Squadron commands. While that seems like what so many people have been looking for, it's also a serious drawback.

Firstly, there's the matter of timing. In a battle between two fleets with squadrons, the one that uses Squadron commands will activate first. Not just some of its fighters, but potentially all of them. They will get into position and deliver their attacks against an enemy who cannot respond until it is too late. Rogue squadrons will be locked down by their conventional counterparts in unfavorable engagements, while enemy Bombers will be able to launch their strikes uncontested. If the player does devote Squadron commands to Rogue squadrons to prevent this, they will be negating the abilities they've already paid for and fighting at a much lower level of efficiency.

Similarly, each Rogue squadron will be fighting on its own. Without activation by a Squadron command, it cannot benefit from any of the powerful upgrades currently available. No Yavaris double-taps or Corrupter speed-runs, no Tallon rolls or Chiraneau shenanigans, no avalanches of blue dice from Flight Controllers, and who knows what else is coming. It can still be activated by Squadron commands to gain these benefits, but the same problem from before applies. You've already paid for Rogue and are not using it. If you do use it, you don't get any of the other Squadron-related benefits you may have also paid for. Even character squadrons that buff their nearby allies will have limited effect; they would have to be moved into position beforehand, exposing them and telegraphing your Rogue squadons' future location, and then survive until your Rogues activate much later.

Rogue will make it easier for many players to include squadrons in their fleets, but the power of those squadrons will be additive, while the existing squadron synergies are multiplicative. Intel, on the other hand, fits much more closely into the existing squadron framework and will allow dedicated squadron forces to bypass the token fighter screens many people field to deter Bombers. In short, Rogue makes it easy to get something out of your squadrons (which has frustrated many people so far) but Intel will make it possible for a skilled player to get everything out of them.

Over the weekend I rocked two games with this 292 build.

VSD-II (85) [115]

Motti (24)

Flight Controllers (6)

Group-1 [38] (Anti-Squadron)
Howl Runner (16)

Tie Interceptor (11)

Tie Interceptor (11)

VSD-II (85) [90]

Expanded Hangers (5)

Group-2 [49] (Rhymer Ball)
Major Rhymer [16]

Tie Bomber [9]

Tie Advanced [12]

Tie Advnaced [12]

I ate throught the enemy figthers with my Group-1 Anti-Squadron, rolling 6 blue die on the Interceptors Plus rerolls. Even their counter attacks got 3 blue dice and a reroll for massive damage in either case.

The Rhymer ball wreaked havock on the capital ships, with the Tie Advanced getting their one black die off, blowing through the shields giving my VSD's clear shots at the hull zones.

With Motti Python I was able to ignore my enginering commands and spend them on continue squadron commands. (Was nervous about this at first, but with the 10 hull points on the VSD's it ended up working well.)

I'm going to toy around with another build similar to this -- have a second squadron pack and my second GSD coming in the mail today. I'll be playing another two matches tomorrow eveing with the build.

Kaine, I've been messing with a build like that vs my favorite Rebel build. It's scary. It likely won't go 10-0, but it's downright nasty to go against.

I'll go one further. From what we've seen of the Rogue keyword, I'm convinced that it's a trap!

Now, don't get me wrong, an independent move and attack is quite powerful. There are certainly some very good uses for that ability, and hopefully it will be appropriately expensive. To get full use out of that ability (frankly, any use at all), you need to avoid activating those squadrons with Squadron commands. While that seems like what so many people have been looking for, it's also a serious drawback.

Firstly, there's the matter of timing. In a battle between two fleets with squadrons, the one that uses Squadron commands will activate first. Not just some of its fighters, but potentially all of them. They will get into position and deliver their attacks against an enemy who cannot respond until it is too late. Rogue squadrons will be locked down by their conventional counterparts in unfavorable engagements, while enemy Bombers will be able to launch their strikes uncontested. If the player does devote Squadron commands to Rogue squadrons to prevent this, they will be negating the abilities they've already paid for and fighting at a much lower level of efficiency.

Similarly, each Rogue squadron will be fighting on its own. Without activation by a Squadron command, it cannot benefit from any of the powerful upgrades currently available. No Yavaris double-taps or Corrupter speed-runs, no Tallon rolls or Chiraneau shenanigans, no avalanches of blue dice from Flight Controllers, and who knows what else is coming. It can still be activated by Squadron commands to gain these benefits, but the same problem from before applies. You've already paid for Rogue and are not using it. If you do use it, you don't get any of the other Squadron-related benefits you may have also paid for. Even character squadrons that buff their nearby allies will have limited effect; they would have to be moved into position beforehand, exposing them and telegraphing your Rogue squadons' future location, and then survive until your Rogues activate much later.

Rogue will make it easier for many players to include squadrons in their fleets, but the power of those squadrons will be additive, while the existing squadron synergies are multiplicative. Intel, on the other hand, fits much more closely into the existing squadron framework and will allow dedicated squadron forces to bypass the token fighter screens many people field to deter Bombers. In short, Rogue makes it easy to get something out of your squadrons (which has frustrated many people so far) but Intel will make it possible for a skilled player to get everything out of them.

Except Han shoots first!!!! (We think)

Well, even as of today, squadrons aren't half as bad as many people think. I agree that Wave 2 is going to open up opportunities, but it's not going to change fundamentally the way squadrons play.

Like you very well identified, Rogues will activate in the squadron phase (except Han Solo which looks like he'll activate before the ship phase from what I can make out of the card). What that means is that Boba Fett wil be eaten by a flight of X-Wings thrown from Gallant Haven with Expanded Hangars.

It's just that, in the beginning of the release cycle while everybody is getting familiar with the rules and the ships, many people were leaving squadrons unsupported and spending many points on them. It was more an error of list building than faulty mechanics. Even currently, squadrons with carriers are efficient.

Intel is going to be a mobile Chiraneau basically with more speed. The only difference is that you'll be able to attack ships while engaged (but you'll want to move anyways to force the enemy to catch up, so it's very Chiraneau like).

since currently the only real substantive complaint about squadrons I've found is the fact that you can blitz the commanding ships and win the game without touching squadrons, it seems more ships will make for a better squadron playground with or without new upgrades

more ships = more targets

more ships = more ways to protect your carriers

more ships = more carriers to carry your squadrons

Rogue is also a sweet addition (powerful, but not as good as being commanded) because it'll really spice up the squadron v squadron game as well as let traditionally squadronless fleets (cr-90 spam) run a few with minimal issue

since currently the only real substantive complaint about squadrons I've found is the fact that you can blitz the commanding ships and win the game without touching squadrons, it seems more ships will make for a better squadron playground with or without new upgrades

more ships = more targets

more ships = more ways to protect your carriers

more ships = more carriers to carry your squadrons

Rogue is also a sweet addition (powerful, but not as good as being commanded) because it'll really spice up the squadron v squadron game as well as let traditionally squadronless fleets (cr-90 spam) run a few with minimal issue

Which is why the Command Ship should expect to be blitzed and plan hihs game accordingly. Aka not necessarily throwing itself forward shouting YOLO

YOLO is love.
YOLO is life.

YOLO is love.

YOLO is life.

I'm starting to live by that with my CR90B You can call me Riekaan.

Kaine, I've been messing with a build like that vs my favorite Rebel build. It's scary. It likely won't go 10-0, but it's downright nasty to go against.

You're right, it is scary and can be very devistating. I want to keep tweaking it though, I just made another build that I'm going to play tomorrow - I can't wait until 400 tournments, we'll get some crazy flexability.

New Build:

VSD-I (73) [115]

Motti (24)

Wulff Yularen (7)

Flight Controllers (6)

Expanded Hangerbay (5)

Group-1 [48] (Anti-Squadron/Bomber Escort)

Tie Advanced (12)

Tie Advanced (12)

Tie Advanced (12)

Tie Advanced (12)

VSD-I (73) [93]

Admiral Chiraneau

Expanded Hangers (5)

Corrupter (5)

Group-2 [49] (Rhymer Bomber Ball)

Major Rhymer [16]

Tie Bomber [9]

Tie Bomber [9]

Tie Bomber [9]

• This doens't have the interceptors with the 6 blue dice but it does have the larger escort, and with flight controllers, brings their anti-squadron up to part with 4 blue dice.
• It ups the bomber damage by added 2 additional bombers for a total of 4 upping my max bomber damage from critical 4 to critical 8.
• I added Admiral Chiraneau so let my bombers move back even if they do get engaged (and since they can attack at medium range, that's no big issue.)
• I added Corrupter Title to synergize with Chiraneau giving the bombers a movement of 3 if moving out of engagement, and five when moving normally.

Not sure if it's been heavily discussed. But the imp's squads are kinda fail at the moment, with 300 points. You are very limited with only 100 points. But when wave 2 comes, imps can afford those meaty ships AND have a sizeable squadron. Not to mention that the efficiency of the TIE/Bs really starts to shine when you hit a much larger number.
As a rebel squad player, Im actually quite scared. Imps already have a really impressive squad v squad game. Howlrunner, Darthy, and all those swarmers is really scary when there is a dangerous bomber squad behind it.

Not sure if it's been heavily discussed. But the imp's squads are kinda fail at the moment, with 300 points. You are very limited with only 100 points. But when wave 2 comes, imps can afford those meaty ships AND have a sizeable squadron. Not to mention that the efficiency of the TIE/Bs really starts to shine when you hit a much larger number.

As a rebel squad player, Im actually quite scared. Imps already have a really impressive squad v squad game. Howlrunner, Darthy, and all those swarmers is really scary when there is a dangerous bomber squad behind it.

Check my post right above yours, I just got home from playing with that setup and WRECKED my opponent 9/1. We usually are more like 6/4 or 7/3 in his favor. Not saying your comment has no merit, but there ARE some good combos for us Imperials at the moment, you just have to exploit your enemy.

Against my wall of death, he turned his Mark II hard to starboard, just as I brought both of my VSD's hard to port and lined up a devastating two rounds of near point blank attacks from multiple hulls to his starboard decks. I got off about three shots with my front arcs and two with my sides. 11 Black dice, 11 Red dice with Rhymer and the posse slugging 1's and 2's at his shields, which brought them down to next to nothing.

I want to see the 2 VSD + 1 GSD classic screed setup for 300 points, and then add on 100 points of just squadrons and upgrades. Could be nasty, having 2 anvils with a demolisher and rhymer ball hammer.

Those advanced may get four total dice for one turn of shooting, but I have a hard time believing they are more efficient than two interceptors, howlrunner, and an advanced for only two more total points.

Advanced don't get swarm, and can't benefit from Howlrunner's ability either.

TIEs may be fragile for the most part, but they do best when you time their strike right and get the most out of their synergies, and I've had great success annihilating rebel squadrons with groupings of howlrunner and interceptors thrown by flight controllers, maybe with an advanced mixed in to keep them off Howlrunner for a turn and make sure your interceptors are rolling five dice each attack.

Still, I haven't run large quantities of Advanced by themselves, so maybe the extra HP balance out their lack of swarm. Personally, I love rolling six dice with a re-roll when I move in my interceptors. At that many dice they can even alpha strike character squadrons into nothing with plenty of accuracies, leaving rebel squadrons neutered.

I'm with DrunkTarkin . I've fallen in love with squadrons, but not because of what Wave 2 might bring. I've honestly not had the mental space to anticipate how the game's meta-fundamentals are going to change because of Wave 2.

So, also like my co-Vader said:

Well, even as of today, squadrons aren't half as bad as many people think. I agree that Wave 2 is going to open up opportunities, but it's not going to change fundamentally the way squadrons play.

I think that the reason why the no-squadrons list is so popular is because of a sort of Nash equilibrium that is brought about because most people don't have three packs of squadrons for one faction.*

I'm picking up on what I'm calling Edsel-Blerg theory**, formalized as:

Few Squadrons < No Squadrons < Many Squadrons < Few Squadrons

I think that the No Squadrons < Many Squadrons statement really depends on what kind of squadrons you bring, and how much AA*** your ships have. If you bring a lot of non-Bomber squadrons and your opponent has ships with two AA dice, then it's not as valid of a statement. Also, with fewer squadrons packs, you have fewer opportunities to make some real ship-busting squadron complements.

Because very few people really went with the 100 points worth of squadrons with Bomber, the Many Squadrons list didn't really materialize. Given that, the dominant strategy was to bring a no-squadrons list, resulting in a Nash equilibrium.

But it's not a real Nash equilibrium, because a 100 point Rhymer Ball (I use Rhymer, 5x TIE Bomber, Vader & Soontir, with the latter just in case I run into a Few Squadrons list) is a very real threat to a No Squadrons list.

* This is based on speculation and anecdotal information. Take with salt to taste.

** Edsel62 and Blail Blerg put it on my mental map in this thread.

*** anti-aircraft, basically: anti-squadron

I am sorry rebel squadron fans. I have failed you.

I have failed us all...

Similarly, each Rogue squadron will be fighting on its own. Without activation by a Squadron command, it cannot benefit from any of the powerful upgrades currently available. No Yavaris double-taps or Corrupter speed-runs, no Tallon rolls or Chiraneau shenanigans, no avalanches of blue dice from Flight Controllers, and who knows what else is coming. It can still be activated by Squadron commands to gain these benefits, but the same problem from before applies. You've already paid for Rogue and are not using it. If you do use it, you don't get any of the other Squadron-related benefits you may have also paid for. Even character squadrons that buff their nearby allies will have limited effect; they would have to be moved into position beforehand, exposing them and telegraphing your Rogue squadons' future location, and then survive until your Rogues activate much later.

Rogue will make it easier for many players to include squadrons in their fleets, but the power of those squadrons will be additive, while the existing squadron synergies are multiplicative. Intel, on the other hand, fits much more closely into the existing squadron framework and will allow dedicated squadron forces to bypass the token fighter screens many people field to deter Bombers. In short, Rogue makes it easy to get something out of your squadrons (which has frustrated many people so far) but Intel will make it possible for a skilled player to get everything out of them.

Actually Tallon would work quite well, as he would allow an activation of your rogue guy with a squadron command, and potentially another move+fire during the squadron phase. Corrupter or Chiraneau will work great with the bomber rogues, as you can fling them further away and willingly out of command range without taking them out of the game for the next turn.

You may fly them more independently from carriers, you dont have to. With the current squadron values on most favoured carrier ships, there should be a slot now and then to fling a command on your scum-of-the.galaxy-guys. I see rogue as a keyword that does not count every round, but occassionally will kick in as it allows a more flexible tactic. You can leave your rogue guy out of range for one round, as he doesnt need to ring home before being able to fly and fire with that fighter..

I agree with your thoughts on intel in fulll, should really change a lot in a skilled players hands..!

I'm not sure you'll be able to activate your Rogues with Adar Tallon. The way I read the Rogue keyword is that it can't be activated but moves and shoot during the squadron phase.

It's not many, some, no squadrons that matter. It's bomber, fighter, none that matters. Looking at damage per point spent, bombers are the most efficient long range attack going. The only ship that can beat b-wings are GSDs at close range with 2 arcs. TIE bombers are next followed by Y-wings. However, the rest of the squadrons are not as efficient as 2 arcs from ships at medium and close ranges.

So bombers are more point efficient than ships. Ships are more point efficient than fighters. Fighters beat the crap out of bombers.

Also note that x-wings should be considered fighters and not bombers even though they have the bomber keyword. They have the second lowest anti-ship damage per point spent. TIE interceptors are the only thing less efficient.

Actually Tallon would work quite well, as he would allow an activation of your rogue guy with a squadron command, and potentially another move+fire during the squadron phase. Corrupter or Chiraneau will work great with the bomber rogues, as you can fling them further away and willingly out of command range without taking them out of the game for the next turn.

You may fly them more independently from carriers, you dont have to. With the current squadron values on most favoured carrier ships, there should be a slot now and then to fling a command on your scum-of-the.galaxy-guys. I see rogue as a keyword that does not count every round, but occassionally will kick in as it allows a more flexible tactic. You can leave your rogue guy out of range for one round, as he doesnt need to ring home before being able to fly and fire with that fighter..

I agree with your thoughts on intel in fulll, should really change a lot in a skilled players hands..!

You've got a point about Tallon, but unless he's on a ship with Squadron 1 you're either wasting some of your orders or activating a few other ships too. You paid for Rogue, (hopefully quite a bit, since it seems very powerful) so whenever you activate them with commands you're wasting that investment. There are definitely times you'd want to, I agree. A couple of Rogues alongside conventional squadrons could be a good finisher.

I'm not sure Tallon is wasted on a ship with more than squadron 1, because he works regardless of how many squadrons you activate.

If I send Luke in with Tallon, I might actually want 2 extra X-Wing squadrons tying up the opponent's fighters just so that Luke can't be intercepted and get his doubletap.