He has also mentioned other perennial complaints about the FFG line - 3 separate core books to get the complete Star Wars experience and the cost (and previously the unavailability of components) this brings with it. I think this is a legitimate complaint - though the route taken is reasonable too, it's a matter of trade-offs - but I would add that each core book contains information that would in other systems go beyond a core book. In other words, each core includes material that would also constitute a separate splat book in other systems.

So it is not a reasonable complaint... And definitely not a very fresh one I might add. We have been playing the system for years by now. so why does this dead horse still receive so many floggings?

One thing that does stress me out a little as a GM with FFGSW is when you get some bloody cryptic dice result and as a group you can't for the life of you come up with a rationale that does the symbols justice.

I usually just have something good or bad happen "off screen" which the players find out later.

I like that. So I'm stealing it.

He has also mentioned other perennial complaints about the FFG line - 3 separate core books to get the complete Star Wars experience and the cost (and previously the unavailability of components) this brings with it. I think this is a legitimate complaint - though the route taken is reasonable too, it's a matter of trade-offs - but I would add that each core book contains information that would in other systems go beyond a core book. In other words, each core includes material that would also constitute a separate splat book in other systems.

So it is not a reasonable complaint... And definitely not a very fresh one I might add. We have been playing the system for years by now. so why does this dead horse still receive so many floggings?

Because they keep doing it.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/184019-i-am-doubtful/

I think his "review" reeks of superficiality and a disturbing lack of experience with the game, a game he writes a review on - and any review being overly positive or negative based on the limited data he's obviously acquired, is ... unporefessional. It's hard to accept his conclusions based on the premises he puts down and the lack of foundation with which he supports his pseudo-arguments. Whether he likes it or not is one thing (and largely irrelevant), but bad penmanship and poorly based "reviews" like this is not professional in my opinion, it's amateurishly bad.

I think his "review" reeks of superficiality and a disturbing lack of experience with the game, a game he writes a review on - and any review being overly positive or negative based on the limited data he's obviously acquired, is ... unporefessional. It's hard to accept his conclusions based on the premises he puts down and the lack of foundation with which he supports his pseudo-arguments. Whether he likes it or not is one thing (and largely irrelevant), but bad penmanship and poorly based "reviews" like this is not professional in my opinion, it's amateurishly bad.

His review reeks of not liking the game, which is okay, surely, right? It's not like he's helicoptering our mums.

He has also mentioned other perennial complaints about the FFG line - 3 separate core books to get the complete Star Wars experience and the cost (and previously the unavailability of components) this brings with it. I think this is a legitimate complaint - though the route taken is reasonable too, it's a matter of trade-offs - but I would add that each core book contains information that would in other systems go beyond a core book. In other words, each core includes material that would also constitute a separate splat book in other systems.

So it is not a reasonable complaint... And definitely not a very fresh one I might add. We have been playing the system for years by now. so why does this dead horse still receive so many floggings?

Because they keep doing it.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/184019-i-am-doubtful/

Isn't that a thing... And how disingenious to try to paint me in the wrong light here as I am very specific in that topic that I do not think this is an issue for the SW line. At all.

Also, the End of the World are a direct one by one translation of 4 Spanish CRB so I understand where they are coming from in doing it, but I don't think that I will buy anymore of the books. A consumer has a choice.

I'm curious about what you specifically mean by: "people are generally making it up as they go along using the core mechanic as more of a guide than a rule because, quite frankly you have to".

As the Alexandrian pointed out the dice mechanic is inconsistent across different Skills and tasks (the chart he provides on the healing/repair mechanic illustrates one example) and the guidance for interpreting die results is pretty vague. What I have experienced is that we make a lot of "table calls" which are basically interpretations of results based on the situation at that moment because the RAW is unclear or it's so similar to another rule but different for no apparent reason that we miss we've done it wrong. Interpretation based on situation is not inherently bad but it can and does sometimes lead to different interpretations of the same die results for similar situations. The inconsistencies in the mechanics however can get very close to seeming arbitrary, and arbitrary is anathema to good RPG'ing.

He has also mentioned other perennial complaints about the FFG line - 3 separate core books to get the complete Star Wars experience and the cost (and previously the unavailability of components) this brings with it. I think this is a legitimate complaint - though the route taken is reasonable too, it's a matter of trade-offs - but I would add that each core book contains information that would in other systems go beyond a core book. In other words, each core includes material that would also constitute a separate splat book in other systems.

So it is not a reasonable complaint... And definitely not a very fresh one I might add. We have been playing the system for years by now. so why does this dead horse still receive so many floggings?

It's not fresh but he's just reviewing after having his first exposure to it.

And I think it is a reasonable complaint. It's also reasonable to like the way FFG decided to do it.

Some people would prefer the rules to cover the entire saga in one book for reasons of completeness and cost. This means that the core book is not as in depth but had breadth. This is a reasonable preference.

FFG decided to devote a game line to each of the 3 things they considered to be core parts of the Star Wars experience because they wanted depth first before breadth. So you get great mechanics like Obligation, Duty, Morality and core books that go into detail on certain aspects of the Star Wars experience. This is also a reasonable preference.

I think his "review" reeks of superficiality and a disturbing lack of experience with the game, a game he writes a review on - and any review being overly positive or negative based on the limited data he's obviously acquired, is ... unporefessional. It's hard to accept his conclusions based on the premises he puts down and the lack of foundation with which he supports his pseudo-arguments. Whether he likes it or not is one thing (and largely irrelevant), but bad penmanship and poorly based "reviews" like this is not professional in my opinion, it's amateurishly bad.

His review reeks of not liking the game, which is okay, surely, right? It's not like he's helicoptering our mums.

No, it is not okay. Much as writing a review about a car in which I drove 20 yards is not okay.

I think his "review" reeks of superficiality and a disturbing lack of experience with the game, a game he writes a review on - and any review being overly positive or negative based on the limited data he's obviously acquired, is ... unporefessional. It's hard to accept his conclusions based on the premises he puts down and the lack of foundation with which he supports his pseudo-arguments. Whether he likes it or not is one thing (and largely irrelevant), but bad penmanship and poorly based "reviews" like this is not professional in my opinion, it's amateurishly bad.

If you look at his cheat sheets and read a bit of his blog it's pretty obvious he's not a superficial person, you just can't get the level of detail in them without reading the RAW in depth. You may disagree but you do your argument no favours with the r ad hominem.

He has also mentioned other perennial complaints about the FFG line - 3 separate core books to get the complete Star Wars experience and the cost (and previously the unavailability of components) this brings with it. I think this is a legitimate complaint - though the route taken is reasonable too, it's a matter of trade-offs - but I would add that each core book contains information that would in other systems go beyond a core book. In other words, each core includes material that would also constitute a separate splat book in other systems.

So it is not a reasonable complaint... And definitely not a very fresh one I might add. We have been playing the system for years by now. so why does this dead horse still receive so many floggings?

Because they keep doing it.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/184019-i-am-doubtful/

Isn't that a thing... And how disingenious to try to paint me in the wrong light here as I am very specific in that topic that I do not think this is an issue for the SW line. At all.

Also, the End of the World are a direct one by one translation of 4 Spanish CRB so I understand where they are coming from in doing it, but I don't think that I will buy anymore of the books. A consumer has a choice.

And consumers not wanting to shell out close to 200$ for the Star Wars line is unreasonable because?

I'm curious about what you specifically mean by: "people are generally making it up as they go along using the core mechanic as more of a guide than a rule because, quite frankly you have to".

As the Alexandrian pointed out the dice mechanic is inconsistent across different Skills and tasks (the chart he provides on the healing/repair mechanic illustrates one example) and the guidance for interpreting die results is pretty vague. What I have experienced is that we make a lot of "table calls" which are basically interpretations of results based on the situation at that moment because the RAW is unclear or it's so similar to another rule but different for no apparent reason that we miss we've done it wrong. Interpretation based on situation is not inherently bad but it can and does sometimes lead to different interpretations of the same die results for similar situations. The inconsistencies in the mechanics however can get very close to seeming arbitrary, and arbitrary is anathema to good RPG'ing.

I'd agree that consistency of interpretation and avoiding arbitrariness is important and that with FFG the gaming table - especially the GM - has to work at maintaining this.

My mind works much better on specific scenarios rather than generalizations. I don't doubt your experience, I'm trying to understand it. Are you finding combat checks vague? Skill checks? Which ones? Could you share a scenario or encounter example?

Also, it seems like ruling things "wrong" and not realizing it until later is a staple of role playing games regardless of the system, hence the Rules Lawyer trope and the GM advice in many games about the GM making a quick decision to keep things going and then revisiting the decision later.

[double post]

I think his "review" reeks of superficiality and a disturbing lack of experience with the game, a game he writes a review on - and any review being overly positive or negative based on the limited data he's obviously acquired, is ... unporefessional. It's hard to accept his conclusions based on the premises he puts down and the lack of foundation with which he supports his pseudo-arguments. Whether he likes it or not is one thing (and largely irrelevant), but bad penmanship and poorly based "reviews" like this is not professional in my opinion, it's amateurishly bad.

His review reeks of not liking the game, which is okay, surely, right? It's not like he's helicoptering our mums.

No, it is not okay. Much as writing a review about a car in which I drove 20 yards is not okay.

I take your point, though I had a very interesting behind the scenes conversation with another user not so long ago, the upshot of which (from my end of the discussion) was something along the lines of: is it really worth getting all that bent out of shape over? Yep, the review isn't exactly scintillating, but we all know the truth - this RPG is superb And remember: any truly noteworthy piece of work, be it art, music, literature, videogames, whatever, is going to divide opinion.

He has also mentioned other perennial complaints about the FFG line - 3 separate core books to get the complete Star Wars experience and the cost (and previously the unavailability of components) this brings with it. I think this is a legitimate complaint - though the route taken is reasonable too, it's a matter of trade-offs - but I would add that each core book contains information that would in other systems go beyond a core book. In other words, each core includes material that would also constitute a separate splat book in other systems.

So it is not a reasonable complaint... And definitely not a very fresh one I might add. We have been playing the system for years by now. so why does this dead horse still receive so many floggings?

Because they keep doing it.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/184019-i-am-doubtful/

Isn't that a thing... And how disingenious to try to paint me in the wrong light here as I am very specific in that topic that I do not think this is an issue for the SW line. At all.

Also, the End of the World are a direct one by one translation of 4 Spanish CRB so I understand where they are coming from in doing it, but I don't think that I will buy anymore of the books. A consumer has a choice.

And consumers not wanting to shell out close to 200$ for the Star Wars line is unreasonable because?

Ah, so now we are moving into the realm of trolling...

There is nothing unreasonable about customers not wanting to shell out close to $200 for anything. Just like there is nothing unreasonable about customers not wanting to shell out $40 dollars for it, or $10.

And that is not the point I was making. I am talking about the whole "Complete Star Wars experience" argument. But you knew this and you were being intentionaly obtuse.

His review reeks of not liking the game, which is okay, surely, right? It's not like he's helicoptering our mums.

Well, it's not entirely like helicoptering, but it's kind of like spidermaning, our younger sisters... and their future children... as I wrote, whether he likes it or not is largely irrelevant, but bad penmanship, poor reviews (i.e. badly written and argued!) and the superficial non-arguments he comes with and calls a "review" is provoking and a crime against decency. I weep for the professionals who get mixed up with people like this guy. Ok, that was mean. I'm just surprised someone is as arrogant as this and calls something like this a review, without the honesty to explicate the fact that they're prejudice against for a variety of reasons from the get-go.

I mean, he's onto something, but he doesn't base it on proper examples, he is being a bit too vague There are obviously issues with this system, we all know it, but he barely touch upon them, if at all. He claims it's complex, which I guess means that we have a lot of genius 6 years old around the world, picking this system up straight away... or he hasn't been bothered with actually playing the system. This means his foundation is ... lacking, or non-existent.

His talk about inconsistencies is also superficial at best.

Basically, I was really disappointed, I thought I was going to read a good review about this system, and I'm still searching for a good review. It's as if every reviewer is biased and presumptuous... or maybe something is wrong with me.

As brought out, the point of time being affected by wither success or advantage for different skill rolls has validity.

Just my thoughts, as somebody who doesn't peruse reviews and the like:

I've long since taken a casual/cautious stance on reviews and such. What irks me, though is arrogance; the review reeks of 'I'm right, you're wrong', which I hate. If somebody likes very structured and outlined systems or whatever, fine; if somebody doesn't like a major aspect, this is also fine; if somebody doesn't like interpreting every roll, still fine. Everybody can like or dislike whatever they want. I shouldn't have to state the obvious. I draw the line, though, when people don't simply state their opinion, but present it in such a way that it's the objective way of things, especially on subjective subjects.

If he was simply stating what he didn't like or took issue with, that's great. He seemed to phrase it in such a way that makes it seem he thinks he is the final authority on the subject, and that's not great.

Just me, though.

I definitely don't think the mechanics are for just anyone. They take some time to get used to. However, I think that he's exaggerating the difficulty of interpreting the dice results. After spending a little time with them, it's pretty easy to tell at a glance what happened.

Combat can drag on, especially if you have people with high soak involved, but I've played a lot of systems where that's the case. After playing a couple sessions, my players and I got pretty good at keeping things moving, and my one friend really, really wanted to try to adapt EotE's dice into other game systems. It's a flexible storytelling tool, and one of the most enjoyable things about the system as a whole.

We also managed to have a perfectly fine adventure with the purchase of only a single book, and a single set of dice - though I have since purchased a second set.

I definitely don't think the mechanics are for just anyone. They take some time to get used to. However, I think that he's exaggerating the difficulty of interpreting the dice results. After spending a little time with them, it's pretty easy to tell at a glance what happened.

Combat can drag on, especially if you have people with high soak involved, but I've played a lot of systems where that's the case. After playing a couple sessions, my players and I got pretty good at keeping things moving, and my one friend really, really wanted to try to adapt EotE's dice into other game systems. It's a flexible storytelling tool, and one of the most enjoyable things about the system as a whole.

We also managed to have a perfectly fine adventure with the purchase of only a single book, and a single set of dice - though I have since purchased a second set.

Let's not forget that combat doesn't have to drag on. There are rules in there for wrapping up encounters with a single dice roll, particularly useful for when the outcome is a foregone conclusion.

As brought out, the point of time being affected by wither success or advantage for different skill rolls has validity.

Just my thoughts, as somebody who doesn't peruse reviews and the like:

I've long since taken a casual/cautious stance on reviews and such. What irks me, though is arrogance; the review reeks of 'I'm right, you're wrong', which I hate. If somebody likes very structured and outlined systems or whatever, fine; if somebody doesn't like a major aspect, this is also fine; if somebody doesn't like interpreting every roll, still fine. Everybody can like or dislike whatever they want. I shouldn't have to state the obvious. I draw the line, though, when people don't simply state their opinion, but present it in such a way that it's the objective way of things, especially on subjective subjects.

If he was simply stating what he didn't like or took issue with, that's great. He seemed to phrase it in such a way that makes it seem he thinks he is the final authority on the subject, and that's not great.

Just me, though.

His review could have done with a lot more specificity (which as Jegergryte pointed out was one of his complaints of the system).

He says people can't use the system as written? Give examples.

He says the game is clunky? Give examples.

He did give the example of it taking 4+ sessions to do something he thought would take two but I wonder if that was factoring in the learning curve of a new system (a new system with unique mechanics).

I can respect a reviewer - even if I disagree with the conclusion - if they lay out specifically what their experience was and the "data" they use to come to their conclusions because even if I disagree with them the review is valuable and informative.

He has also mentioned other perennial complaints about the FFG line - 3 separate core books to get the complete Star Wars experience and the cost (and previously the unavailability of components) this brings with it. I think this is a legitimate complaint - though the route taken is reasonable too, it's a matter of trade-offs - but I would add that each core book contains information that would in other systems go beyond a core book. In other words, each core includes material that would also constitute a separate splat book in other systems.

So it is not a reasonable complaint... And definitely not a very fresh one I might add. We have been playing the system for years by now. so why does this dead horse still receive so many floggings?

Because they keep doing it.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/184019-i-am-doubtful/

Isn't that a thing... And how disingenious to try to paint me in the wrong light here as I am very specific in that topic that I do not think this is an issue for the SW line. At all.

Also, the End of the World are a direct one by one translation of 4 Spanish CRB so I understand where they are coming from in doing it, but I don't think that I will buy anymore of the books. A consumer has a choice.

And consumers not wanting to shell out close to 200$ for the Star Wars line is unreasonable because?

Ah, so now we are moving into the realm of trolling...

There is nothing unreasonable about customers not wanting to shell out close to $200 for anything. Just like there is nothing unreasonable about customers not wanting to shell out $40 dollars for it, or $10.

And that is not the point I was making. I am talking about the whole "Complete Star Wars experience" argument. But you knew this and you were being intentionaly obtuse.

I can get the "complete star wars experience" in other places for a far smaller investment, without having to purchase overpriced dice and large amounts of the same rules multiple times at full price. I posted your thread because you yourself have, in another line you're less invested in, apparently realised that this kind of release policy isn't consumer friendly and there are other options, which other companies successfully utilise, to provide content without ripping their customers off.

He has also mentioned other perennial complaints about the FFG line - 3 separate core books to get the complete Star Wars experience and the cost (and previously the unavailability of components) this brings with it. I think this is a legitimate complaint - though the route taken is reasonable too, it's a matter of trade-offs - but I would add that each core book contains information that would in other systems go beyond a core book. In other words, each core includes material that would also constitute a separate splat book in other systems.

So it is not a reasonable complaint... And definitely not a very fresh one I might add. We have been playing the system for years by now. so why does this dead horse still receive so many floggings?

Because they keep doing it.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/184019-i-am-doubtful/

Isn't that a thing... And how disingenious to try to paint me in the wrong light here as I am very specific in that topic that I do not think this is an issue for the SW line. At all.

Also, the End of the World are a direct one by one translation of 4 Spanish CRB so I understand where they are coming from in doing it, but I don't think that I will buy anymore of the books. A consumer has a choice.

And consumers not wanting to shell out close to 200$ for the Star Wars line is unreasonable because?

Ah, so now we are moving into the realm of trolling...

There is nothing unreasonable about customers not wanting to shell out close to $200 for anything. Just like there is nothing unreasonable about customers not wanting to shell out $40 dollars for it, or $10.

And that is not the point I was making. I am talking about the whole "Complete Star Wars experience" argument. But you knew this and you were being intentionaly obtuse.

I can get the "complete star wars experience" in other places for a far smaller investment, without having to purchase overpriced dice and large amounts of the same rules multiple times at full price. I posted your thread because you yourself have, in another line you're less invested in, apparently realised that this kind of release policy isn't consumer friendly and there are other options, which other companies successfully utilise, to provide content without ripping their customers off.

"Other options"? Like... erm.. Scribd, for example?

[bites fist, waits for black ops to crash through the window]

Not even. I don't use scribd.

You can run SW with mini-d6 and wookiepedia entirely for free, if you so choose. Then you have the WEG systems, in which I don't believe I ever invested more than 50$ in total, and that's hedging it on the high end (available for six! dollars on amazon atm...). Dito on Mongoose's Traveller. I see no reason to use a highly specific ruleset when I can get the same experience from a more generally applicable one for less money.

Yeah, this is getting into the fieldof unreasonable way too fast and I am going to show that I have grown by bowing out.

But I am showing that I haven't grown that much by pointing it out....