The first card of leadership (In the base game) Give the hero the opportunity to make: Attack+Movment+order

But in the altar of despair expansion, the change the card for: 3 half-actions (But one must be an order)

In the second version of the card, can we make 2 attack + order?

I'm pretty sure that the 3 half actions still have to be different and one of them has to be an order, but I'd wait for a second opinion to be sure.

Unless the card specifies that the half actions have to be different (and I'm pretty sure it doesn't), you can do a move/move/ready or a attack/attack/ready. Keep in mind it does cost a fatigue, and it doesn't count as a run action or a battle action for purposes of ability use affected by either of those options.

Bashwilly said:

Without looking at the card I would say yes. As long as one of them is a placement of an order (on you or a teammate), whatever else you do this those other two half actions is up to you.

We just stuck with the base game card.

It doesn't require a fatigue so it's one of the better abilities in the deck, but the lack of confusion about it is what's important.

ColdStone said:

First off, this HAS in fact been clarified by Kevin Wilson in the FAQ- the half actions need to be different.... attack, move, ready (in any order)

Secondly, if you are using the expansions, you really should use the updated Leadership card, but that's just my opinion (and that of that game designer), you are free to do whatever you want.

I REALLY wish that FF had copied over the relevant rules thread or at least the unanswered questions sticky. It would really save the community as a whole time when it comes to rehashing questions. At the very least, I strongly recommend that everyone use the latest FAQ as the first resort for rules questions. If the topic is addressed there, you'll get your answer much more expediently!

There's the second opinion I was waiting for

Oboewan said:

Hrm, so when you select the 'leadership' option, all three half actions must be different. I must have missed that part of the FAQ; me and my party have been allowing those other two to be whatever they want (in effect, Battle action plus an order).

Will make a note about this later on...

If I resume:

If I use the "update" card that came with altar of despair, I can do whatever I want?

Bashwilly said:

Nope. The AoD card was just written poorly and should have read exaclty like the original but with the added fatigue cost. You are still limited to move/attack/order

I think too but... where do you get that?

Leadership (AoD)

"When you declare a Ready action, you may immediately 1 fatigue to take 3 half actions instead of 2 half actions (one half action must still be an order half action) (...)"

So as you may see you card doesn't says it must be different half actions. But I'm not sure becouse AoD rule book say "Now, when a hero readies, he reacives two different half actions (...)"

So it seems you can make 2 attacks but I'm not sure at all. Coz if you reacive 3 actions instead 2 different half actions you have to make 3 different half actions.

I couldn't find it in the FAQ, although I'm willing to accept that it's in that 70-odd page thread involving earlier rules quiestions from the older board.

You'd think that would have been something they would have addressed, though

Here's the section from the old forums straight from the keyboard of Kevin Wilson:

Leadership
The two half actions given by the leadership card, do they have to be different half actions, or could you "Attack" twice?

Actually, when using the Ready action, you can't select the same half action more than once. The wording is a bit confusing, yes. But you can move, attack, and place an order, or move, place order, and concentrate, or whatever. Just no double attacks or double moves or whatnot.

-Kevin Wilson
Fantasy Flight Games

That's the kind of answer I was waiting for

Thanks Oboewan!

Oboewan said:

Warning: tangential rant.

I don't have a problem with designers releasing errata, but that is a bull excuse. It's true that you can't normally select the same half-action more than once when performing a Ready, but that's not a rule (at least not in the AoD PDF I downloaded), that's just a consequence of the rules that one of the half-actions has to be an order and you can't place a second order if you already have one (and the fact that you can't voluntarily forfeit an order to receive a new one seems fairly odd in the first place). If the quotes in this thread are correct, then as the revised Leadership card was actually written , it allows duplicate actions, and I wish they'd say "sorry, we screwed up, it should be X" instead of confusing people by trying to excuse their mistake with references to rules that exist only in the designer's head.

Antistone said:

Welcome to Descent my friend.

I suppose they did have to alter the text of the card to allow for the Concentrate action (or whatever its called) that appears in AoD, but still, really sloppy work.

I know I should be able to figure this out but...can you do the following with Leadership?

Move

Guard

Dodge.

Big Remy said:

Well, first of all, you can't have two orders at once, so I assume the hypothetical situation is that you place a guard order on yourself and a dodge order on someone else (or vice versa).

The other obstacle would be the errata'd restriction that you cannot perform the same half-action twice. The Alter of Despair rules on page 5 list the possible half-actions as being: move, attack, order, and concentrate. So by that categorization, all orders seem to be considered the same type of half-action, and I would say this violates the "no duplicates" rule.

Yeah that's what I thought. Thanks for the confirmation.

Grrrr...

Difficult Rules Question + Badly Written Card = Headache

Antistone said:

Where is it mentionned in the FAQ?

I could not find the relevant entry, even after searching for action. It should really be there, as there is nothing explicitly saying that ready actions require using two different half actions (which would be a stupid ruling as it only applies to leadership anyway, as you cannot have 2 ready order tokens, so using 2 ready half actions would be utterly moronic, and using another action twice would be incompatible with the idea of using a ready action).

As there is no specific entry concerning leadership in the manual, and skill cards use to supercede rules, this needs to be put in the errata, otherwise, "the can't select the same action more than once for a ready order" argument cannot apply, as it is only a consequence of the way normal ready action work, which should be superseded by the leadership skill.

Galdred said:

All I can say is that not putting the ruling in the FAQ must have been one of many oversights of FFG when putting it together. The quote above about not selecting the same 1/2 action more than once is a direct email response from designer Kevin Wilson to one of the members of the "old" forums. If an email from the designer of the game doesn't pull enough weight for you...... *shrug*

Antistone said:

Indeed. The answer addresses the original question only and is specific only to the original question only IMO. That is, it specifically does not address the three action leadership issue (at least not in any part so far quoted in this thread).

Answers from authors should never be applied 'generally', but only specifically to the exact questions applied. Authors who consider the wider implications of their answers to specific questions, and who can remember and understand all the implications off the top of their head are not only rare, but may indeed not exist at all. This is most certainly not the only game where this problem exists.

And I do not in any way mean to denigrate KW in this response. Awesome game dude!