After much wrangling, I found what appears to be the last update to the banned list in UFS:

Set # Card # Card Title
PA01 25 Erode the Human Soul
PA01 36 Double Dealing
SC01 20 :Cassandra:
SC01 120 Enlightenment
SC02 39 Penetrating Lunge
SC02 36 Strength of Purpose
SC04 71 Defender of the Empire
SC05 81 Quick to Anger
SC7P 1 Higher Calibur
SF02 112 To the Bone
SC1P 6 .:Zasalamel:.
SF05 38 :Ibuki:
SF05 39 Kasumi Gaki
SF05 46 Kubi Ori
SF06 98 Military Rank
SF1P 10 Turbo
SF3P 8 .:Dhalsim:.
SF3P 11 .:Hugo:.
SFXMAS Happy Holidays
SNK02 94 Concealed Shallow Swipe
SNK02 62 Ruler of Southtown
SNK03 108 The Noble Scion of an Odious Bloodline
SNK03 131 Revitalize
SNK03 135 Addes Syndicate
UFS5P 1 Broken Leg
UFS5P 3 Bleeding Internally
DS02 73 J. Talbain

Effective July 1, 2009
Set # Card # Card Title
DS3P 02 Lord of the Makai
SC9P 05 Olcandan's Mentoring
SC9P 14 Chester's Backing
SF07 #43 Bitter Rivals
SF08 #40 Fei Long's Forward Kick
SF09 #19 .::::Chun Li::::.
SF08 #69 Juni's Spiral Arrow
SNK03 #65 Rejection
SC06 #70 Forethought

Now, I have a few questions - one, are these cards currently banned in Legacy? Are there any additional cards banned in Legacy? Basically, since FFG is serious about getting Legacy going again, I would like to know the answers to these questions so I can build some Legacy decks.

I think this list is fine, some cards may be alright now but that's about it, and I would add Blood Runs True to it. Otherwise, it's all good. Thoughts?

VikramS said:

News to me.

Me too. But no Vik, it's just one big ol' list to the best of my knowledge

VikramS said:

Was it really that hard to find?

VikramS said:

Yes

VikramS said:

Not at this time.

VikramS said:

VikramS said:

Myself and a few others would like to see some cards come off the list. (Promo Zas among others)

I've finally dug out from my pile at work, I've got gaming for a 15,000 person convention to work until the end of the month. After that it's getting the new TFR (tournament floor rules), and the AGR (Advanced Game rules) revision published. Following that (my current ETA is to have those documents published by end of November.) if it hasn't already been done, my goal is to start working on the banned list for legacy.

Something that I would like to possibly see is almost a rolling 3 to 6 month banned list for legacy, where cards will go on and off the list at different times to keep the legacy meta fresh.

Antigoth said:

Hey, that's MY line!

i've been talking to kirk polka and ryan riley about a new list for legacy, we have some pretty good ideas i think.

we all said we want kunai to go for sure, this fixes evils brokeness on alot levels.

we all said that we were fine with lotm, chesters and olcadans coming back for legacy. lotm is a worse whereabouts unknown imo, chesters is a bit iffy but the 4 dif keeps it in line imo and olcadans is needed against void and some other big wall decks.

we also all agree feline spike being unerrated for legacy is fine as well, esp if kunai goes.

me and havoc also feel that css could come back, haven't talked to kirk about this yet.

Scott Gaines said:

While everyone's entitled to their opinion, I strongly disagree with these. Also, Chain Throw needs to go more than Kunai does. If you're playing Legacy, there's tons of answers to Kunai. Evil has always been strong; removing Kunai is going to cripple Life and Water more than it is Evil.

Spike errata'd is what it should have been printed in the first place (the entire card should have been Felicia Only).

People who play the current Standard have a different mentality about how the game plays now. If you unban CSS, when those people play Legacy, it just goes against that mentality. I just feel like we're working so hard to get away from gray wars and CSS doesn't help us keep that distance.

Again, not an attack on you, just my opinion, dude.

I'm with ROTBI on this: Chain Throw is worse than Kunai. Spike should stay errata'd.

I'd also ban Absurd Strength, but I always hated that card.

I would also ban Blood Runs True.

Also, I like everything on the current banned list where it is: on the banned list.

I realize that a lot of "broken" combos are available in Legacy, making decks with these cards only slightly stronger (or not stronger) than other decks without them. But I have very strong views about innate power level, and these cards represent the absolute silliest costing for what they do. Specifically, Chain Throw is the most overpowered/undercosted throw for its stats and abilities; Absurd strength is the most overpowered/undercosted damage boost/momentum hate; Blood Runs True is arguably the most overpowered/undercosted CCHax; Feline Spike is the most overpowered/undercosted multiple attack.

-------------------------------------

If you want real fun, Vik, try Highlander Legacy (minimum 60-card deck, no more than 1 copy of any card). You can do some really fun theme decks, and it's really hard to unbalance.

Blood Runs True does ind33d need to go.

I also believe that Chain Throw should go over Kunai. James' Worlds Ibuki deck didn't run Kunai. Ukyo used Kunai more than any other character, and without Chain Throw, he wouldn't be able to loop his attacks that he would abuse with Kunai.

Then again, everyone and their mom used Chain Throw to loop. Chain Throw was the enabler for a lot of deck styles and combos.

Really the thing about Legacy is a lot of cards that were broke in standard are a whole different thing in legacy, Kunai clears a card and if not it goes to momentum no matter what even if negated, you just have to share a symbol with it to get free momentum puts away pycho focus way too easily to be abused,

Many people may disagree with me but I feel Yoga Mastery is a nessicary evil that needs to stick around

BRT is fine there are far worse things in legacy

Lord of the makai is good but not as broke as it was in standard

Feline spike's errata doesn't really matter a whole heck of a lot because the only person who would really make it a problem is promo Yun-Seong but he probably has better things to do than feline spike

Chain throw without Kunai makes it far harder to loop and just makes it a great attack

Absurd strength is pretty good but I do not see the reason to hammer it

Something that definately needs to be on the banned list though is terrible prize support for Legacy events :-P lol...

I've always wondered if it might be better to have two legacy banned lists? One "hardcore" list for people who want to play with the BRTs, Yoga Masteries, etc. to see who can come up with the most ridiculously unfair deck possible, and then another "casual" one for people who just want to be able to use their older cards and have a decently fun time doing so. The latter list would probably have to be massive though -.-'

I would personally not remove anything from the Legacy ban list - ESPECIALLY not any of the characters - and I would add Chain Throw and ***Tira*** to the list.

Evil only really abuses Absurd Strength when used on Chain Throw... unless you're Tira, in which case, every attack is Absurd fodder. Now, hear me out for a minute. Chain Throw is at its silliest when combined with Absurd and Kunai, but Chain Throw on its own is just stupid in general. It's far too good at what it does, most Ibuki builds skip Kunai altogether and just use CT to pick other CTs back up as well as picking up the prior turn's Kasumi-Suzaku. CT also encourages you to cut your attack count back drastically due to its very nature - a single Chain Throw can lead to getting back ALL the other Chain Throws in your momentum, as well as one other attack on top. Without Chain Throw, Kunai really loses its bite because the single most significant abuse of Kunai is looping and re-looping Chain Throws.

Tira is a flat out broken character. The only real ways to "stop" her from doing what she does are 1. Response negation (Inhuman Perception is about the only reliable one, which costs you a card out of your hand, and you're up against Lost Memories and her own Inhumans), 2. Overwhelming Strength, 3. Throws. No character should be able to completely nullify the mechanic of complete blocking for her opponent and partially blocking for herself.

I'd also keep a close eye on Shinobi Tradition. It's not outright broken, but it IS silly.

Absurd can stay because it's still the only really solid and stable solution to momentum shenanigans (that your opponent doesn't see coming like Mortal Strike and can't blow up so easily), and without Chain Throw and Tira, it becomes a much more significant card for Fire and Earth, two resources which have much more difficulty withstanding the Wall of No that Legacy control decks tend to put up... so they need the speed.

The only other card I really don't like for Legacy at that point is Kung Fu Training, simply because of the abusive synergy with Absurd Strength on ALL THREE of its resources.

Edit: You can also make a really good argument for banning BRT but I'm still personally not really convinced the card is ban worthy. It's a *****, but so is every ******* Legacy control card. BRT doesn't have Void or Death, so leave it IMO. It's Evil's only functional means of pushing attacks besides Kung Fu, and has to be on the board to do it.

Chain Throw is the only reason I've ever bought more than one box of any set in my life. I loathe and despise that card with all my being

For those who don't know, we play legacy a ton in our neck of the woods (Austin, TX). I think the the big picture that some people miss concerning Legacy is that it's supposed to open up a lot of fun and different possibilities. That being said, it gives you a world of answers as well. If you really wanted to you could run, Yoga Mastery, Pieces of Eight and No Memories. There has never been a standard deck that could do that (sure it's overkill, but that's beside the point). The point is the pool is so big, it really let's you diversify your style. Whereas in the current standard, throws will almost always hit if your name isn't Steve Fox or King; in Legacy tons of decks can squash them.

Absurd Strength and Ikari Warrior crush Kunai, Wherabout Unknown, and even to a degree Lord of the Makai. Yoga Mastery gets owned by Lost Memories, which gets owned by Inhuman Perception, which gets owned by Rigorous Training, etc....

That being said, Chain Throw is simply a card that does too many things, for too little of a cost, to be realistically controlled/dealt with.

I've been hit by every big name kill card there is (except CSS) and while it's not "fun" to lose per se, Chain Throw is the only card I've been hit with and felt like my opponent did not earn the victory (only Ira Spinta loop comes close to that). When I was hit by Feline Spikes for 24 damage, I thought, "Well, at least my opponent took the risk of having 1-checks in their deck".

While I surely do not agree with many of the bannings that have been made, we abide by those, and ONLY those when we play legacy (no additional bans) and everyone has a good time.

EDIT: Lol, at typing almost the same thing as Tag at the same time he was.

Okay, just an opinion survey then - basically, with what is being said, would any of you really have a problem if the following cards were banned in addition to what we have already (taking cards off the list is a different issue): Chain Throw , Kunai and Blood Runs True ? I think we can all agree these cards are very ridiculous, and leaving stuff like Shinobi and Absurd in the card pool keeps Evil just dandy. I'm inclined to leave the list intact as well, with Spike's errata (god I hate that card) and whatnot like it is - minus stuff like Zas. I just also think these 3 cards leaving would balance out the environment a bit more.

Agree or disagree?

I would personally disagree, if those 3 are lumped in all together. Because Kunai is not (nor has it ever been) banworthy. To say Kunai is banworthy is to say Felicia4 was banworthy, and I've never once heard those words spoken or seen them typed.

I'd be fine with the other two going. Obviously, no legacy cards are going to ever get errata, but I've said for awhile that BRT could do with the simple line: Not playable during the block step of your attack.

Promo Ukyo... That + Psycho Focus+ Chain Throw+ Scourge of Zues TURN 1 in theory. I mean honestly.

As for Kunai... If Chain Throw goes, then it's lost half it's power. And besides, how else (outside of Vega) is life gonna get momentum?

VikramS said:

I'd agree only because I don't want to look for my Chain Throws and Kunais in case I start playing Legacy. I don't know where I stashed those playsets and to be frank I don't want to know.

Wasn't there some ruling done on ***Tira*** back in the day to where it did not matter if she changed her opponent's block zone (or couldn't)? I looked at the current rules and the only thing I could find was "8.3.2.6 Once a block is successfully played, a block effect is generated." which I would assume that the block state (complete or partial) happens the moment the block is played and is not affected by changes afterwards (except negation). The only other thing is "8.3.2.8 Effects that change the zone of a block after it has been played will not make the block illegal.".

her response is to ready her and then change the zone of a block. to change the zone you had to commit "a foundation" which you can commit characters for costs = jank

@saikyo: You're probably thinking of the ruling that she could change an off-zone block to an 'illegal' zone (ie, a Low block vs a High attack, when a printed Mid block was played) and it will still generate a half block effect. Tira can still change a block zone to be a partial block, unless an ability such as Tycho generates an automatic full block (to which Tira may still respond, but it won't do anything other than ready Tira)

the way i see it is that it really depends on how hard you want to control the game in legacy....

You could either make it as degenerate as possible and then i say yeah ban chain throw but nothing else or you could go hardcore bannings to make it playable for all and then ban BRT, Chain, maybe kunai, Absurd, Tira, Etc...... to make it a balanced game

Also ive been in favor of having two banlists for a long time one that lets you do whatever you want and another that is for people who want to try and have a sensible game.....Magic has a similar thing to this and i believe it works pretty well

As for running legacy events i also would like to see the winner of say worlds and nats legacy events choose a non legal card and make it legal for standard play......of course there would have to be some thinking by all parties when making these desicions but there are alot of balanced cards that could possibly be brought back by this

Whacky double post of doom.

Personally I'm opposed to seeing BRT go, I really don't feel the card is all that bad.

That being said... I would be willing to try banning BRT, Chain Throw, & Kunai for 6 months. If it works, and people flock back to playing legacy like never before, then Booyah, they stay on.

If little to nothing change about the game, then bring them back after six months, and try something else.

Or alternatively - we create a restricted list. Where only one of a given card is allowed in a deck. (which given peoples desires for 4 or nothing, would effectively ban the card)

Antigoth said:

Why not go in pairs? Restricted means 2, Full means 4, Ban means ban.