Seems like another ancient one right up there with Atlach that's impossible to beat with a low number of investigators, and even with a high number I don't see it.

Realistically you can hope for +6 combat per hand. Let's give our hopes up even more and say that every investigator has a base 6 fight. Let's go even more out there and say that not only does every base 6 fight investigator have a +6 weapon per hand, but that they have both a physical AND magical version of each. If you manage to get these AND go into final battle with everyone blessed, THEN you could pull it off.

But good lord how is that supposed to happen? And this is without the epic battle deck (new house rule: no epic battle deck until we've beat an ancient one without them). How on earth did people beat him? Clue-stuffed shotgun Joe?

The one good thing about Zhar's attack is that it is predictable. You know which investigator is the next one to die. Knowing that, you can give your best weapons to the investigators farthest down the line.

The real challenge, of course, is getting your hands on both physical and magical weapons.

In my most recent game against Zhar, I was driven to final combat. There were 6 investigators, so we needed a ton of successes to win. Thankfully, we shredded through his Magical Immunity side without too many casualties (Sudden Death on Tommy was at an awful time, but he got to retaliate by passing his personal story). When Zhar switched over to Physical immunity, we had like one magical weapon, an attack spell, and "Enchant Weapon" on the Elephant Gun. This was our primary means of taking Zhar out. Unfortunately, we had some bad rolls and wound up losing, but Zhar only had 4 tokens left. Not incredibly close, but still respectable.

i've beaten him twice, I think. Both times we had a little bit of help.

One time we had completed "sealing the beast's power" mission. The other time a (blessed) Norman Withers had completed his story and ripped 2 doom off of Zhar before combat. Don't remember all the details of the fights though. One game might have had Tommy in in to die and hit Zhar for another doom as well. And if i recall, in the other game we may have had an AO attack cancel item too. Anyway, a lot of the time it comes down to turn order. If your spellcasters are the first to go, you're probably screwed, unless you have lots of magic weaponry hanging around.

Even with the above help, it still came down to the wire. First time we had one investigator with 1 hand left, second game we had just Harvey with both hands left.

So it's only possible with specific investigator personal stories and a specific mission in the unique item deck?

=(

I don't think I like this latest trend of super impossible final combats. Being extraordinarily difficult is one thing, but 0.3%-5% success rates?

Just played Ghatanothoa for the first time though. I really liked his design. A slumbering ability that's challenging but fun without being frustrating, and a final combat difficulty about on par with Cthulhu, which is fine.

On the other hand, we just unanimouslyvoted to remove Tsathoggua from the deck. Utterly impossible to beat in final combat, and his slumbering ability makes the game kind of boring.

hey, time out, that isn't what I said. I said that's how *I* did it. I'm sure it can be done in other ways too. Lily Chen/ Marie Lambeau both have stories that can slam Zhar in final combat, Marie even has a 3rd hand -a free extra round of combat, woot! Throw in a warding statue, Mandy, a liberal application of blessings and a lot of heavy firepower, I'm sure other teams could make it work. Of course it's difficult, and it's probably easier to seal, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

Edit: incidentally, Tsothoggua is one of the toughest AOs out there final-combat wise, maybe *the* toughest. I've never beaten him in final combat. Nevertheless, I still find that I really enjoy playing against him. His slumber ability is far from 'boring' IMO, rather it's challenging and makes investigators think in different ways.

awp832 said:

I don't see how. It simply removes all trophy options from the players. Instead of having to choose "should I go buy one of these, or is there something more important that needs to get done?", there is no choice to begin with.

*shrugs* i dunno. Rather than gaining clues at the science building you have to collect from the board, or try the general store. Rumors such as 'the stars are right' take a bit of innovation and luck to pass. Risk taking an encounter at an unstable location to pick up an ally? Or try to win the game before the rumor fails? More than anything; you're not screwin around with allies or deputy, big T makes you focus on the game, and I kinda like that.

I'm with you on Zhar's final combat. I keep looking at it with wonder in my eyes. But people manage it. I'm sure they have some powerful synergies going on, but there are a number of recorded instances, so it's possible. Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth as well. There are many more documented instances of defeating those two, because they've been out longer. As long as the final combat is possible, people find ways to make it happen. Big weapons, blessings, and attack cancellers are probably the most important factors in your "average" final combat victory.

There are even reported final combat victories against the biggest three "undefeatable" Ancient Ones: Quachil Uttaus, Chaugnar Faugn, and Tsathoggua. While QU was deafeated by single player Joe Diamond, CF was defeated by an actual team (albeit a powerful one, clearly). The victory against Tsathoggua has been on the stats for a long time, but I don't know what it featured. They're possible, but very unlikely, victories. Just seal them, huh? This game isn't really what could be called "fair", but isn't that part of its charm?

I'm in agreement with awp about the Ape. Inevitably, clues go dry, and you're caught having to poke around locations that are supposed to have clues. This injects a new kind of focus and excitement into the game. God forbid a rumour (or something else) shows up and you need something particular. It provokes more exploring, and not spending trophies makes it that much more likely that the game will end by exhausting the monster or gate pieces (still hella unlikely). Besides, you need all of those trophies when he wakes up!

Ultimately, while I really like him, don't feel like you have to, and don't play against him if it's really not fun. I think you're just not looking at it the right way, though.

If I may ask, what kind of limitations do you find fun about this game? Do you like playing against Cthulhu or Hastur? How does Cthugha's game strike you?

Quoting myself from another thread:

"I've beaten Zhar. And didn't gear up (aka prepare for final combat), though the Mythos kinda did that for me, namely getting "All Quiet In Arkham" on the turn before Zhar woke up, which saw all investigators Blessed. Of course, I only needed 1 more turn to seal his double-ass, so I'm kinda pissed I got a win stolen. With 4 investigators (which I use), 88 hits and investigator devoured every other turn (and also using only 1-hand for the second attack). Even with good weapons, and importantly "discard after use" ones for the early investigators, it went down to the wire, Roland was the only one left, had the Zhar token already, just managed to pull it off."

One way to defeat Zhar is to eat lots of strong chili before you let him chew on you. Hopefully he will choke to death afterwards. Alternatively, this could give Zhar a taste for chili instead of human flesh, which probably isn't as good as it sounds since he will then enslave humanity to farm his chili fields... Still, some might find this an acceptable alternative.

flamethrower49 said:

Cthulhu's slumber ability isn't that terrible, one of the hardest to bea tin combat though. Haven't played Cthugha yet.

Hastur...I dunno. He doesn't combine that well with Innsmouth's further drain on clue tokens. He either encourages you to wake him up as soon as possible (bummer if you're the "final combat is absolute last resort" kind of player) or to win by closing all gates, which is nearly impossible with a low number of players. It's kind of a crapshoot with him.

Shub-Niggurath's slumber ability is tough, but fair.

I think Eihort and Ghatanothoa have tense slumber abilities that can be really fun. Ghatanothoa is probably my favorite right now. The idea of riding your motorcycle to safety while all your friends are left in the dust and devoured is hilarious.

I'm just not wild about ancient ones that are virtually impossible (Solo Joe Diamond doesn't count); a 10% chance of winning final battle should be the minimum. They might as well just be Azathoth and say "you lose if he awakes". A single victory since Dunwich? Tsath's discarding all clue tokens was an interesting idea, but they took his attack way too far.

Not too crazy about ancient ones that favor a certain player size like Zhar and Atlach. Atlach carries over into his slumber ability since it's impossible win by closing all gates without a large number of players; if you don't have at least 5 people then there's no point in even trying.

Hope he looks the other way and run?

According to the latest stats report, Zhar holds these stats:

Overall difficulty: 64.2% (1st place!)

Times awoken: 69.8% (2nd place!)

Difficult to beat in final combat: 89.2% (5th place)

Zhar is one tough cookie, no doubt. Very hard to avoid combat, and extremely hard to fight during final combat has earned him the #1spot. Only Cthugha, Quachil Uttaus, Tsathoggua, and Azathoth are more difficult to fight (and for good reasons!).

Cthulhu, btw has 38.4% difficulty overall (16th place), and 86.5% final battle difficulty (8th place).

GrooveChamp said:

Whereas I think 10% should be the maximum chance of winning.

Many, many people here say they consider a Final Battle victory to be a draw, and decry the strategy of ignoring gates in favour of gearing up with the intention of winning that way. What the designers want, I think, is for Final Battle to feel like a genuine win. You should do anything you can to avoid it because you have so little chance of success, but when you do win it's a victory dragged from out of the (often literal) jaws of defeat.

For the most part, I agree with you, Jedit. I just it's a slightly different thing when you're talking about Zhar or (to a lesser extent) Rhan-Tegoth. In the case of those ancient ones, they both have abilities that make them wake up quicker, leading to a sooner endgame. Combined with the fact that Zhar is much harder in final combat than (say) Hastur, and I can see some protesting against Zhar. I'd say that is what gives him the top spot in the standings. Short slumber, rough combat. I think he'll sit up there for a while.

I'm just fine with usually being unable to defeat the 13 doom Ancient Ones in final combat (Hastur has his own issues). It's also reasonable for the 12 doom Ancient Ones, just to a lesser degree (CF and QU are just a little crazy). 11 doom Yibb-Tstll and Zhar are a bit unreasonable - at least Yibb doesn't try to wake himself up earlier.

i doubt the game designers were too concerned with making final combat 'feel like' a win. I suppose it's not fair for me to speak for them either, but let me just say:

If *I* was designing AH, I would have approached it from the following standpoint: Final combat *is* a win, so lets balance these AOs to make the ones fast to wake up easier to kill, and the ones slow to wake up pretty darned tough.

If you want tougher final combats, IMO, that's what Epic battle is supposed to be for. A host of nigh-impossible AOs isn't the answer. Zhar and Hastur really share the same problem... on opposite spectrums. Zhar wakes up early and has a darned near impossible combat, Hastur wakes up late and has a relatively easy one.

To be honest, I think power creep may have something to do with it. In the base set, Shrivelling was the king. There was nothing with a better bonus. If you weren't a spellcaster or didn't have sanity to spare, the best you could hope for was a .45 automatic and an enchanted blade. Enter Dunwich: +5 single hand weapons become available. Honestlty, their drawbacks are more than balanced with their strengths... except for in final combat, where their drawbacks cease to matter. Flamethrower and Fetch Stick have similar mechanics. Rare 'no-hand' items also throw off final combats. Mission: Sealing the Beasts power enters play. Enter Dark Pharoah: Some allies that are downright rediculous, Tom Murphy's +2 combat boost suddenly doesnt look so hot. Certain Exhibit items (Eye of Light and Darkness, Mask of 3 Fates, Chime of Ra) can give a massive boost in final combat. Enter Kingsport: Elephant gun and Brazier of Souls make a +8 combat bonus from "hands" possible to attain in one fell swoop. Daisy can drop the san cost of a spell to 0, and get Shrivelling garunteed first turn if she likes. Enter King in Yellow: Inner Beast adds another effect that gives a 'no hand' bonus to combat, Azure flame adds a magic shotgun, and Storm of Spirits helps low-fight casters like Harvey by a mile, Gladius of Carcosa and Cursed Sphere add more 'big' magic weapons. Enter Black Goat: Call AO, Crowbars. Some items were just created to be broken. Magnum is another +5 one-hander. Enter Innsmouth: No new items, although Zoey is often an AO bane, and certain personal stories (Harvey, dexter, Lily, Norman, Marie) can be a huge final combat help if passed.

After all that, Hastur, Yig, Nyarlathotep and Ithaqua start to look especially helpless. Even some of the more dangerous base AOs like Shub and Cthulu start to fall. New AOs with harder combats was the answer FFG came up with.

Niiiiiiice. Very well put, awp832! Which is why those older Ancient Ones need "upgrades". I'd like them to be official game sheets, but, scattered about, I've read several "advanced" versions of each of them that work, like Mask-Spawning Nyarl. A serpent-y expansion for Yig would be great too.

On topic, I've never beaten Zhar face-to-face. I've sealed him, and I have given him a beating, but if he shows up, only he remains standing.

awp832 said:

I'm with you here. The only real "too easy" problem was with some of the ancient ones in the base set. Then epic battle cards came in, though to make an easy ancient one truly challenging, you probably have to follow the optional rule of removing green cards based on seals since otherwise 95% of final combats would never last to see the tough red cards.

You're right, stronger items came with stronger enemies. Old weapons were a joke against new monsters, old monsters were a joke against new weapons. Some ancient ones were bumped up to impossible. You can say 10% might be a bit high, but 0.3% is way too low. 2-3 player games are no longer possible with Atlach or in final combats with Zhar & Quachil.

I can live with tougher stuff, but I think a better solution would have been expansions listing new rules for the easier ancient ones instead of making later ones nigh-impossible. If the game was still too easy for hardcore players then there's always the black goat herald and difficulty variant cards.

Our 8 player team has beaten Zhar in final combat once. Fortunately that had been a faily easy game with the game giving us lots of nice stuff to pass around. However I think that may have been the same game that saw Silas being devoured during the setup. (first mythos card required the first player to draw an innsmouth look card, resulting in being devoured before the first turn) It was unbelievable bad luck, but also awesome in a way.

The whole doom track mechanic supports awp832's theory that some base game AOs were designed that winning by combat was the more plausible route. Fewer doom spaces means the AO wakes up proportionally easier. More doom spaces means proportionally harder to kill. There are exceptions, of course.

However, I would never play again without Epic Battle, I'll say that.

Argonel said:

Urg! You too? I just played a game where Roland was devoured by the very same mythos card before the 1st turn. The funniest part is that in his personal story, he sarcastically mentions that demented fish-men is the only thing he hasn't encountered yet.

"Hey, look a mirror. WHOOPS I'm a fish monster!"

Played a 4 player game against Zhar tonight (Innsmouth, Dark Pharoah, King in Yellow all mixed in) no herald.

We were literally one turn away from winning (5 sealed gates while I was playing Silas and had just gotten the last thing I needed to pop my storyline and seal the final gate on the following upkeep) when the gate got blocked by a seal, the deep rising track filled, and we had to fight Zhar.

Now we were not prepared at all, but the fight was surprisingly close. We were playing as (from 1st player down) Hank Samson the farmhand, Ursula the Explorer, Silas the Sailor, and Mhn Thi Phan the secretary. We had a tommy gun we were passing down, Hank was blessed so we got that boost for a couple turns 3, we had 1 attack cancel item) so we did pretty well early fight. Tore through his magic immunity with at least two of us still standing. Unfortunately we had bee ncaught offgaurd by the fight and didn';t have enough magic stuff to stage a desperate final shot. Mihn did have a bunch of spells but we were all caught at 1 sanity for one reason or another. Still even with all of this massive failure surrounding our preparations (or lack thereof) we still got him down to arond 6 spots left on his second doom track.

I think the trick is to have a 4 or 5 max players fighting him, and keep an eye to your money and trophies. His attack may be instant death every other turn but unlike many others he can't kill a group of investigators in one attack. So, if you have 4 players you know you have 8 turns get ready to be ablke to do that knd of damage. You don't have to lose focus of the real goal of the game (closing/sealing gates) to be ready for Zhar. Just be protective of your equipment. Spend your trophies as much as possible (unless you need them for a gate closing victory) and keep the importance of being geared up as something in the front of your mind as you play.

P.S. Fighting Zhar was cool but nothin could have been better than sacrificing the Sailor to win the game.

Ok, this is now the official "how are you supposed to beat this Ancient One?" thead.

Quachil...how? Automatically devours the first player every attack, physical AND magical immunity, -3 combat. What in the world can a non-solo clue shotgun Joe Diamond do to win in final battle? Even if every investigator had the max base fight of 6 and was blessed the entire time (which is impossible right there) you still wouldn't even come close. A full team of 8 fight six blessed investigators would still only remove 6.76 doom tokens before losing (smaller teams would fare even worse), not a single person losing their blessing the entire time. That leaves 5.25 doom tokens, or 42 more successes, which would require 84 more dice/clues to win.

So in order for an 8 player team (the larger, the better the chances against Quachil) to statistically have a chance at winning, every single investigator would have to have an average base fight of 6 (not going to happen), be blessed for the entire final battle (definitely not going to happen), and go into final battle with 10 1/2 clue token each (impossible to happen).

To top it all off, he only takes 12 doom token to wake up! Hastur is slapping his forehead at 13.

So how is such an impossible victory supposed to happen? Some sort of never going to happen magical combination of specific investigator personal missions and specific unique items?

GrooveChamp said:

I've been puzzling over this... it seems so completely lethal that it's almost pointless. It's even worse than you say, GrooveChamp. I worked the stats out a while ago, accounting for every possible Combat bonus you could get from all the expansions. Even with blessings, Grapple, and all 48 available clue tokens on Joe Diamond with a shotgun, you end up with a slightly worse than 50% chance of getting the number of successes you need before QU devours everyone. It just doesn't seem possible to actually achieve that sort of victory; even if you planned for it right from the start, you'd need a phenomenal streak of good luck in order to get all the cards you need and not lose any of them. (Although I can't remember exactly how I worked it out so it's possible I got some parts wrong. But I don't think I missed anything very significant.)

It's actually the removal of Allies that probably makes the single biggest difference against QU. Basil Elton and the Messenger would each buy a turn for the whole group, and there's about +12 points of non-immune Fight to be had off Allies as well. But you can't get any of it! Has anyone beaten QU in the final battle? If so, I'd be very interested to hear how it happened... I'm assuming that it would have to be done using some sort of obscure combo (unless I've overlooked anything obvious).

According to the last stats 5% of final combats against Quachil ended up successes, higher than Tsath (who is nigh impossible, but still more possible than Quachil)! Unless it was some kind of cheese like a solo clue hording game I'm not buying it. The only possible combo I can think of is picking every investigator with an ancient one weakening personal mission, completing the weakening the ancient one mission, getting the cancel an ancient one's attack item, and getting a major spellcaster to cast calling the ancient one IN ADDITION TO having max base fight with martial arts + grapple and blessings for all. But expecting a team to pull that off is nuts, especially for a 12 doom count ancient one who's going to devour 1-3 players throughout the game.

Honestly at this point I wouldn't be surprised if it was some kind of practical joke or bet between designers to come out with more and more over the top impossible ancient ones and see if the message boards still complain that it's too easy.

I do remember that QU was beaten in final combat, in a 1-investigator game, where Joe Diamond was picked after seeing the GOO. I think nobody needs to be told what went down in that game (Hypnos was even Guardian). Couldn't find any other final combat triumphs over QU with a quick glance at the session logs.

Also, aren't you guys forgetting Zoey? She turns Immunity to Resistance, she can use weapons .