We ran the game last night and had a blast.

One thing I wasn't sure about is when you declare a Force power but it doesn't quite work.

In this case a PC used move with the size upgrade. They wanted to move the bad guy up into the air.

From what I remember from the beta I called for an opposed check. Discipline versus Athletics.

The PC passed that check (it was a great roll) but only rolled one Force pip (needed two).

So the use failed but it felt bad to say nothing happened so I let him pull his weapon away.

In general if a PC declares something that might cost 2, 3, 4, Force points but is a few short after the roll (but passes the opposed check) should you let them do something else with the Force power/points they rolled?

Thinking back I would say no. I did warn him he needed to roll two points.

But that might limit what a player tries and that's no fun.

Conversely what it I say I’m moving one stormtrooper but roll well on the Force dice and could activate a second move. Can I do that even though I did not say I was going to?

With activating Force powers and spending Force points generated, the way it's meant to work is that the player declares what power they are using (Enhance, Move, Sense, etc), rolls their Force dice (along with any other type of check needed), and once they've determined how many Force points they've generated decide how to spend them.

So for your example of using Move, it'd go something like this:

Step 1) Player declares they are using the Move power

Step 2) Player rolls their Force die, but only gets a single LS pip for one Force point.

Step 3) Player decides how to spend that Force point.

Now admittedly the PC won't be able to accomplish their desired intent of lifting the target into the air, since they needed two Force Points, but they could still use Move to lift something else into the air (or even attack with it if they've got the appropriate upgrade to Move). The only time a Force power is truly considered to have "failed" is if the PC didn't generate any Force points (mostly by rolling DS pips and opting not to convert them into Force points), but it still costs the character their action, much the same way a failed combat check costs the attacker their action for that character's turn.

Thanks. That makes sense in general but I think there is a slight hitch in some cases.

Some applications of Force powers require a skill check but only in certain uses. If you want to use Influence to make someone do something you have to declare that before the check becasue you have to make a skill check. You could roll 4 white pips but still fail the skill check.

In that case you would have 4 white pips to do something else with Influence but it would be different from what you initially said and you'd be doing it on someone that just withstood your use of the Force so that's a bit lame.

In the beta I think it says most uses of the Force are opposed if it's a big adversary (it was a bit wishy washy here) and usually you need to know specifically what they are doing to know how to build the opposition pool.

Yeah, so in those instances, you just revert to the Basic Power, or do something else with the Force points (if you can). Sometimes a failed check is a failed check, nothing much you can do about it. But say if you're trying to Influence the bad guy: your mind trick fails because there was no success on your Discipline check, but you can use your 4 Force Points to give the bad guy some strain! Makes whatever happens next a little easier...maybe a stun bolt to the back...

That's a good call but I think even the basic power of Influence can be ruled an opposed check by the GM if the target is a nemesis or Force user (again that was just a beta sidebar so the new rulebook might clear this up). I guess you have to make calls, which I'm not opposed to. On one hand I don't want the player to miss out of a bunch of Force pips but on the other hand it feels odd to change the results from the intent too much.

It's just a mechanical issue with requiring two things for one action. I'll just have to give thought to being consistent. A small price to pay for a more open rule system.

That's a good call but I think even the basic power of Influence can be ruled an opposed check by the GM if the target is a nemesis or Force user (again that was just a beta sidebar so the new rulebook might clear this up). I guess you have to make calls, which I'm not opposed to. On one hand I don't want the player to miss out of a bunch of Force pips but on the other hand it feels odd to change the results from the intent too much.

Here, I'd be careful, since

1) It's just 1 piddly strain per Force Point and

2) Influence already has codified rules for making an Opposed Discipline check, and it takes place specifically when you're trying to do the classic "Mind Trick."

So requiring an Opposed Check for this "lesser" result is, IMO, unnecessary and overkill. YMMV.

PS: Is it "threadromancy" if the thread in question is still on the front page?

Actually the basic strain is very powerful with the upgrades that do multiple strain per point and 2-3 Force Rating. You can do a lot of uncancelled strain that ignores soak to a PC who has already probably spent strain on parry or reflect and you can do it at range. I'm not doing that to a PC without a check.

Actually the basic strain is very powerful with the upgrades that do multiple strain per point and 2-3 Force Rating. You can do a lot of uncancelled strain that ignores soak to a PC who has already probably spent strain on parry or reflect and you can do it at range. I'm not doing that to a PC without a check.

Well, what's nice about the Force and Destiny core rulebook is that a Force-senstivie PC can opt to require an opposed check anytime they're targeted by an enemy's Force power.

So if a bad guy wants to use Influence to inflict strain, a Force-sensitive PC can call to have it be an opposed check, using the PC's Discipline dice pool to set the difficulty for the enemy Force user's own Discipline check.

Well, what's nice about the Force and Destiny core rulebook is that a Force-senstivie PC can opt to require an opposed check anytime they're targeted by an enemy's Force power.

So if a bad guy wants to use Influence to inflict strain, a Force-sensitive PC can call to have it be an opposed check, using the PC's Discipline dice pool to set the difficulty for the enemy Force user's own Discipline check.

Yes exactly. And that's what we do. And in keeping with my original post about failed checks and "almost" checks, if the Adversary tries the basic Influence on a PC, fails the skill check, but gets 3 Force pips, can the Adversary do anything with those?

I'd say not.

But if it's a PC doing the same, are they out of luck too? They spent a lot of XP for a two-factor attack when they could have just attacked with a weapon based on one factor.

Or what if they succeeded on the check and have some pips but not enough for the range? Can they change the target to the stormtrooper next to them?

There are a lot of possibilities:

-Failed check but got Force pips

-Made check but no Force pips

-Made check but not enough Force pips to activate kickers required

The last one is the hardest for me.

"I try to move the two crates off the cliff."

"Oh, you made the check and got the pips for range and size but you only have enough for one crate."

Let the PC do this?

or

"I try to move one of the crates off the cliff."

"You made the check and got the pips for range and size and a second crate."

Let the PC do this?

If so, the PC is only ever going to say the minimum and then maybe change the range, magnitude, targets, etc. from there after the roll and contrary to their stated intent.

At our table...

Regardless of player intent, the way we conceptualize it is that the Force User in-character reaches out and tests their connection with the Force (determining the points available) and then chooses the course of action.

At our table...

Regardless of player intent, the way we conceptualize it is that the Force User in-character reaches out and tests their connection with the Force (determining the points available) and then chooses the course of action.

That seems like a simple way to go. So you have them roll their Force dice and after seeing the result they can pick the power and effects? And if a skill check is necessary do that after the Force dice too?

I wonder why the written rules are so different.

Thank for the reply.

At our table...

Regardless of player intent, the way we conceptualize it is that the Force User in-character reaches out and tests their connection with the Force (determining the points available) and then chooses the course of action.

That seems like a simple way to go. So you have them roll their Force dice and after seeing the result they can pick the power and effects? And if a skill check is necessary do that after the Force dice too?

I wonder why the written rules are so different.

Thank for the reply.

No problem. We just worked out an approach that suited us.

For me as a ref it depends on what they are trying to do. My group were on top of a five story building, trying to get to the top of a nearby seven story wall. The warrior in the group tried to force leap to the top but failed to get enough points to activate the range upgrade. As a result he leapt of the top of the building but ended up short of the top, whereas the Niman Disciple was trying for use Move to pick people up and place them on the wall just kept trying until he succeeded.

The warrior had initiated the action as part of the force use, and the disciple had built up the power required to pick up and carry his compatriots before he moved them.