Just came across "Atomics" section in the "Into the Storm" expansion for "Rogue Trader" rulebook and ..well, the section looked really strange.

First of all - even traditional macrocannons in WH40K universe are said to deliver power, equal to tactical nuclear ordnance with each shot (for example - Imperial Navy's standard Sunsear laser macronnon is said to deliver 15 terajoules of power per each shot, and thats equals roughly to 3,5 kilotons TNT equivalent, in line with tactical scales nukes of today.

Second are torpedos, that, per their description are implied to sport some "pure fusion" thermonuclear warhead.

Than come the nova-cannons, delivering payloads WAY more powerful than any conventional modern-day nuke, making even an AN-602 "Tsar-bomb" pale in comparison.

So - what do the weapons in "atomics" section represent ?

Someone at FFG had a brain fart and thought they were writing for Dune. I ignore that section as it tends to conjure up player tactics that completely rule (a.k.a. ruin) the game. It also creates headaches for those dynasties that find radioactive minerals, and spend more time looking for buyers than they do actually mining the stuff. Just assume that fission is everyday and your game will run smoother.

Equip IG regiments with nuclear dampeners and it also solves other problems. I have all kinds of logistics vehicles common to warfare that I assume nobody even knows what they do, let alone how they work. They just bring'em along because the Tactica Imperialis says to, and experience shows that those who don't obey the Tactica Imperialis tend to lose spectacularly. "According to the Tactica Imperialis, Chapter XVI, p. 572, After destroying your enemy's Chung XLVIIc Command Vehicle, launch your Deathstrike Missiles immediately for best effect." There is an addendum in Vol. CIX, p. 388 that says, "Experience has shown that this tactic is less than effective against the Tyranid swarms due to the intense attention shown to Deathstrikes by spore clouds."

I wouldn't put FFG entirely on the hook for this one. I seem to remember several stories/material from GW's older writings that used Atomics in the way that FFG described them. Of course, with the amount 40k stole/borrowed from Dune, and the limited originality of early GW materials, it's not a major surprise. Still, Errant's handling of them and nuclear material is likely the best.

If you want/need a super weapon of that kind, just assume it's some esoteric atomic annihilation (ie anti-matter) device.

Sorry Quick, I never let authors off the hook for what they write, unless it's in quotes and has a proper citation, and it still requires a (sic) behind the misspelled words. I'm such a **** Tracy. Hehe. I couldn't help but make them **** me out.

Just assume that fission is everyday and your game will run smoother.

If you want/need a super weapon of that kind, just assume it's some esoteric atomic annihilation (ie anti-matter) device.

Well, such rules (as presented) could be used for vortex weapons instead. Because, lore-wise, vortex weapons are indeed "notorious doomsday weapons", are greately feared (upon detonation they tear the time-space continuum itself and armour offer no protection against it) and are mercifully rare, unless you are with Adeptus Mechanicus or the Inquisition.

I seem to remember several stories/material from GW's older writings that used Atomics in the way that FFG described them. Of course, with the amount 40k stole/borrowed from Dune, and the limited originality of early GW materials, it's not a major surprise

Got the point. However, the basic setout in Dune's universe (considering pre-Paul Atreides times) are radically different from WH40K - in Dune the Empire rules over all known universe, no hostile xenos are present and what is essentially private wars between Great Houses are heavily regulated and limited. This to say, atomics in Dune's universe are limited (however their manufacture and stockpile is tolerated) not because of their nature, but because of colleteral damage to civilians, industry and planets' ecosystems.

In WH40K, on the other hand, we have an all-out war for survival (simply put, if any hostile xenos races achieve triumph over Imperium it's a death knell for humanity (with the notable exception of tau, who intergrate humans into their empire as a client/servant race). The second thing is that WH40K has weapons that are like the nuclear ordnance of today (deathstrike missile launchers, starships' plasma torpedoes, possibly so-called "magma bombs") or even exceeding it (life-eater "virus" (my guess, not actually a "real" virus, but self-replicating combat nanites designed back in "Dark Age of Technology" to dissolve any organic matter), cyclonic torpedoes (ignite the planet's very atmosphere into roaring thermonuclear conflagration) and nova-cannons shell (likely, impact against a planet would be utterly devastating).

In Dune, each Lord is allowed to own and operate nukes, sort of like a country (and when you lead a whole PLANET, that seems fitting.) The big reason this is not a problem is because the Guild is not loyal to any one world, but to their profit margin, seeing as they almost quite literally eat that profit. Since they don't have loyalty to anyone save themselves, and nominally/loosely to the Padasha Emperor ("even the Emperor cannot move without the blessings of the Spacing Guild, my Baron"), they can openly scan any freight being loaded aboard their highliners, and forbid the transport of nukes. My memory of Dune illustrates the "family atomics" as "dirty bombs", for the most part; an aspect of their arsenal they retain, and occasionally use, but that they haven't re-refined into a decent option since the Butlerian Jihad, thus, these old, leaky, dangerous munitions are rather easy to sense. I see the Dune family atomics as mostly something akin to what a lot of us see America's nuclear arsenal as; a deterrent. If you are Baron Harkonnen, you COULD pay the Guild to ferry your house troops to Caladen, all the way from Geidi Prime, and try to lay siege to House Atreides, finally getting revenge for generations of bad blood, and as the current owner of Arrakis, you might even be able to pay enough to out-bribe Duke Atreides' attempts to pay the Guild NOT to bring your troops, but if you do, and those forces get nuked outright, once they land, it's a whole new, long, process to get the next unit sent. Reinforcements in Dune are the biggest limiter in their wars, alongside paying the Guild to ALLOW you to conduct them. The atomics make forays into your own world unappealing, in my opinion, so you won't look to just crush me, and you don't have ships to do so from orbit.

In 40K, I see the atomics as some kind of messy ordnance one can use that replaces more exterminatus ordnance "regular" people can't. They are rather nastily destructive, but they also seed the area with fallout, causing lingering problems for those who survived. Still, their damage output is nothing compared to cyclonic torpedoes, virus bombs, or a magna melta, so the Imperium, at its higher levels, might not care that you use them; thee WORLD you aimed at will survive. They are a bit rare, though, as I suppose plasma generators are the primary fuel source for things, so nuclear power isn't really needed, and few people work on that field. The military has "better" stuff, and no one else knows enough, or has a strong enough need, to care, so the few you can get are often the few that there are. Again, all of this post is more my opinion, than anything I can put a page number citation to, so if you feel differently, or know better, you can correct me. i haven't read Dune in a long time, or most of the rest of it, at all, and my take on 40K is at least as tainted by "who was writing the fluff this week?" as most anyone else's.

Since they don't have loyalty to anyone save themselves, and nominally/loosely to the Padasha Emperor ("even the Emperor cannot move without the blessings of the Spacing Guild, my Baron"), they can openly scan any freight being loaded aboard their highliners, and forbid the transport of nukes

AFAIK it is even simplier - The Great Convention heavily regulate what is essentially "private wars" between Great Houses with the stress put on the part that civilian casualities and destruction of industrial assets should be generally avoided as per "rules of engagement". Those Great Houses who break the rules are subject to full-scale Imperial retribution (Padishah Emperor himself nominally have permission to employ nukes in enforcement actions, initiated by the Imperial Throne, however the most important part is "nominally" - emperor's sardaukar still could be transported between star systems only by the Spacing Guild. The Gulid itself also employ atomics - but for a very specific purpose - each highliner have a number of nuclear demolition munitions installed and a special officer of the Guild instructed to set them off if anyone attemp to highjack the colossal spacecraft, inevitably sacrificing himself and destroying the heighliner with all hands and passengers.

They are a bit rare, though, as I suppose plasma generators are the primary fuel source for things

So that's the point- per their description standard Imperial Navy's torpedoes are essentially equipped with pure-fusion thermonuclear warheads. There are also nova-cannons with payloads way ahead any "our time" nuclear munitions and we can only guess how disastrous even a single impact of nova-cannon shell may be for a planet.

And yet I've never had a player want to teleport a nova cannon shell onto a rival's bridge. And they think they are so originally clever...

And yet I've never had a player want to teleport a nova cannon shell onto a rival's bridge. And they think they are so originally clever...

Offtopic: As far as I am concened, the rules don't cover such occasion - so it's GM's discretion then. As for my own judgement - if the teleportations sucesses than the shell's detonation should result in instant and utter destruction for the vessel in question. Don't even have to be on the bridge- anywhere inside the ship would do the trick, since nova-cannon's shell have an explosion radius of several thousands kilometers in space and ignores ship's armour even at comparable great ranges from the epicenter.

Yeah, I don't think the argument will ever be if the teleport-attack WOULD work, as much as, thankfully, most GMs decide that it SHOULDN'T and DOESN'T work, either because of the temperamental qualities of their little-understood teleportariums, the potentially poor accuracy of the device, on occasion, the energies being emitted by a primed warhead, and things like void shields/Gellar fields. Void shields can be a little weird, compared to their general equivalent in other media, where shields in Star Trek can stop beaming, and where beaming in Star Wars is almost non-existent, barring one Jedi (the Dark Woman, Anya Kuro, and her's is short-range phasing, I suppose), one race (the Aang-Tii, and Jacen Solo), one portable, short-range relic (Magwit's magic rings), and the occasional "warp gate" KOTOR era occasionally used (made by the Kwa and the Gree, if my nerd-hat is working).

Depending on your build, space combat in RT can be one-sided, in your favor, and easily, without any sort of "let's beam this WMD over to their bridge/enginarium/ordnance dump, and blow them up from within, in one shot", and my opinion is, if your ship has ONE piece of archeotech, I'd bet dollars to throne gelt it's going to be the teleportarium. It almost renders the whole of ship combat moot if ally uo need is one guy who is 'rather good with Tech-Use", and enough other angles while about the brokenness of Explorators?Tech-Priests, as it is. Now, he can destroy a whole SHIP in one attack? Void shields, it's iffy if, mechanically, they would stop this, and Gellar fields, I believe, are shut off, for the most part, while you are in realspace, though I'd think they could deflect a "warp-based attack". Maybe it's better not to figure out how/why this doesn't work, and just fiat that it doesn't, and be happy, as the players with the huge time investment, that it doesn't work on YOU, either.

Yeah, I don't think the argument will ever be if the teleport-attack WOULD work, as much as, thankfully, most GMs decide that it SHOULDN'T and DOESN'T work, either because of the temperamental qualities of their little-understood teleportariums,

I rule it doesn't work due to safety mechanisms built into the teleportarium itself - potentially someone who really understood a teleportarium might be able to override the safety but A - no one understands it that well anymore and B - there may be a very good reason why its blocked - i.e. if attempted it explodes in the teleportarium...

In terms of wrecking ship combat though I think the virus torpedos are actually worse - horribly effective and leave the ship unharmed - at least atomics leave no goodies so people would soon realise they are throwing away a ton of potential loot and stop doing it.

Additionally you can argue it destroys both the warp engine and the main power so potentially damaging their ship via explosions (which has to be in range to teleport) and creating a warp rift that could consume their ship.

Nukes, vortex, virus, regardless, I just ask my players if they REALLY want that tactic to work. If they relied in the affirmative then I guess I'd have to let it work...once. Next encounter it's rock falls, everyone dies. I've never been taken up on the offer. It must be the evil glint in my eye, or maybe it's the, "MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! that accompanies the question.

If these cheesy tactics work, then everyone uses them. They don't become the exception, they are the rule. I never pretend that my players' characters are the only intelligent life in the galaxy. I reserve that role for someone else...though the Eldar are always claiming it, especially if there's a monkeigh around to hear them.

and things like void shields/Gellar fields

Lore-wise, void shields should be first brought down before attempting a teleport attack. For example, during the Siege of Terra Horus lowered his ship's shields on purpose to let it be boarded.

I rule it doesn't work due to safety mechanisms built into the teleportarium itself

Like I said erariler, AFAIK such attacks are not in the rules, so their possibility or impossibility is only GM's discretion. ))

It's an interesting and thematically enticing prospect.

Ever since Stargate for me at least.

Theres a lot riding on the attack and for the attacker there is risk, you send over an armed nuke, they disarm it, enhance it and send it back, or worse they don't send it back and you forever live in fear of the day when all your pict-screens have a laughing skull on it before your Dynasty experienced a setback.

Whether it works or not is up to the GM, FF never said you should use it, tbh, its 40k, sure there's a mega-doomsday device, it would be silly to assume not, and as Errant Knight says, as soon as you crack open that can of worms "This **** just got real", it's just not the most original plan ever, I would be more inclined for one-hit kill son ships depending on the players ingenuity.

Also I was convinced a while back by a similar threat that Sacred Atomics are not standard nuke warheads for a number of reasons i'll not go into.

Anyway my directionless addition to the thread is for now complete.

Nukes, vortex, virus, regardless, I just ask my players if they REALLY want that tactic to work. If they relied in the affirmative then I guess I'd have to let it work...once. Next encounter it's rock falls, everyone dies. I've never been taken up on the offer. It must be the evil glint in my eye, or maybe it's the, "MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! that accompanies the question.

If these cheesy tactics work, then everyone uses them. They don't become the exception, they are the rule. I never pretend that my players' characters are the only intelligent life in the galaxy. I reserve that role for someone else...though the Eldar are always claiming it, especially if there's a monkeigh around to hear them.

Sort of my argument for tank-killing guns working, or lots of other things; it's not so much "you want to be able to do this?" as it is "you want me to be able to do this to you?" My feelings, anyway. As soon as you push for broken, or even "a lot better than the book seemed to give", if it works so well FOR you, it will probably be as effective ON you.

and things like void shields/Gellar fields

Lore-wise, void shields should be first brought down before attempting a teleport attack. For example, during the Siege of Terra Horus lowered his ship's shields on purpose to let it be boarded.

I rule it doesn't work due to safety mechanisms built into the teleportarium itself

Like I said erariler, AFAIK such attacks are not in the rules, so their possibility or impossibility is only GM's discretion. ))

Safety feature? An Imperial device with a SAFETY feature? That's funny. Yeah, the book leaves it to you. If they don't think of it, all the better, we didn't hand them another idea. If they DO ask, the book doesn't say, so even more so, the GM needs to okay it, and hopefully won't.

It's an interesting and thematically enticing prospect.

Ever since Stargate for me at least.

Theres a lot riding on the attack and for the attacker there is risk, you send over an armed nuke, they disarm it, enhance it and send it back, or worse they don't send it back and you forever live in fear of the day when all your pict-screens have a laughing skull on it before your Dynasty experienced a setback.

Whether it works or not is up to the GM, FF never said you should use it, tbh, its 40k, sure there's a mega-doomsday device, it would be silly to assume not, and as Errant Knight says, as soon as you crack open that can of worms "This **** just got real", it's just not the most original plan ever, I would be more inclined for one-hit kill son ships depending on the players ingenuity.

Also I was convinced a while back by a similar threat that Sacred Atomics are not standard nuke warheads for a number of reasons i'll not go into.

Anyway my directionless addition to the thread is for now complete.

Ah Stargate. This is something I liked in Andromeda. In that series, ships didn't have shields, and used depleted uranium, and other ridiculous substances to armor their craft. If you tried to beam in a WMD, the ship's AI could simply activate it with a thought, or just beam it back out. Silly kind of "don't bother me" response to it, but it worked for that show.

GM needs to okay it, and hopefully won't

Offtopic: And that may really depend, I personally witnesed the case of GM 'okaying" an Imperial Inquisitor requesting military assistance from the Eldar to deal with Chaos incursion onto Imperial planet (yes, Yanden craftworld lent its support in form of troops and a farseer). XD

My take on the teleportarium.

It looks kind of like a transporter from Star Trek, but you can only teleport things from the teleportarium pad to a place, or from a place to the teleportarium pad. Teleportarium beacons (moderately rare/difficult to build items) can help raise the likelihood of a successful, on target, teleportation if you have one to lock on to at the other end. There's only space for about 20 people per teleport, so you can't fit "Hab Block Sized shells" into the teleportarium. You can fit hulking sized vehicles like the sentinel or landspeeder into them. Maybe even a single rhino, but it'll require a drive test to avoid damaging anything driving a multi-ton armored vehicle around and on top of all the delicate equipment. As for atomics, while you can try it, the radiation involved in atomics runs the risk of a catasrophic mishap on an attempt to teleport it to or from anywhere.

I'd also consider whether the 40k atomics (which I also say utilize atomic annihilation/antimatter rather fan fission explosion) aren't also macro cannon sized shells, since they are generally fired from macrocannons, but that's not something I worry about too much.

I never really had a big problem with the way atomics are written up in the RT books. They make sense to me. They're not often used, because fission is almost entirely obsolete, and fusion is common as **** throughout the imperium. They're wasteful on a massive scale as far as the imperium is concerned, but they're basically a poor man's exterminatus device.

They also make sense in how destructive they are in space battles.

A macrocannon shot is like a tactical nuke when it hits a -planet-, not when it directly impacts an enemy ship. You have a massive shell sure, but it's not converting itself and everything near to itself into thermal energy upon impact. There's no atmosphere to create the tactical nuke 'boom' that is caused when a macrocannon barrage hits a planet.

But a nuke directly striking a ship is going to mess things up BADLY. Far worse than any single macrocannon salvo is going to. Because it's all that power concentrated into a single area (when macrocannons in the books are largely described as basically using spray-and-pray for the purposes of dealing damage, lobbing massive clouds of gigantic bullets at a foe and hoping enough hit to deal some serious damage).

An atomic strike, when it hits, is basically a large strength blast smacking right into the face of the enemy vessel. All at once, all that power concentrated at a point.

And the reason it doesn't just rip open the ship then and there is simple. The ship STILL has all of the bulkheads, armor, and shockabsorbers meant to take goddamn apartment complex sized bullets enmass and keep on ticking.

But get one -inside- a ship. Get one inside of a vessle, past the shockaborbance devices, past the armor plating. It's like somebody turned a macrocannon broadside to face the inside of the ship and fired all at once. That's going to leave a mark. No armor, no voidshields, and each hit is an automatic critical hit.

The reason most people can't just make them is pretty much a combination of why only a few places can make grav plating anymore, and why we can't make damascan steel anymore. Atomics were rendered obsolete long before even the dark age of technology began in full. Most places don't have -any- technological innovation, and those that do STILL have plasma fusion technology so they never need to discover or even touch radiological materials, which aren't exactly all that common nor desirable for purposes outside of energy production via fission (or fusion if you have to do it the way we do it today, which is using a fission bomb to trigger a fussion reaction).

At the end of the day, I see no conflict in the writings of FFG on this set of things. It makes sense when you take into consideration the ENVIRONMENT in which you deploy weapons such as these drastically changes how dangerous they are. Macrobatteries are significantly more deadly when deployed against a place with an atmosphere than against another ship.