Good thing that we can all agree to wait for the card to come out and the FAQ and Rules to reveal how our game pieces will work.

I'm reminded about the Scum Dials issue that existed months before the Scum ships were released and the issue was a non-issue.

Jacob

Good thing that we can all agree to wait for the card to come out and the FAQ and Rules to reveal how our game pieces will work.

I'm reminded about the Scum Dials issue that existed months before the Scum ships were released and the issue was a non-issue.

Jacob

Actually, it was an issue. FFG reversed it at the last moment due to complaints.

Good thing that we can all agree to wait for the card to come out and the FAQ and Rules to reveal how our game pieces will work.

I'm reminded about the Scum Dials issue that existed months before the Scum ships were released and the issue was a non-issue.

Jacob

Actually, it was an issue. FFG reversed it at the last moment due to complaints.

Reversed it?

Since it was never 'issued' it was never reversed. Perhaps they changed their minds on what they intended to do, due to complaints, but they didn't change a ruling.

There was a bunch of people on the forums here threatening to quit. All based on speculation, not on the actual ruling. The point is, even now there's speculation on a potential issue. I'm sure FFG will resolve this, there's no reason to argue about a ruling. In fact, there's no real need to argue about much of what's argued here. Even now you're arguing that this was an issue, when in reality it doesn't really matter. I'm arguing back because I think some people here are too quick to jump to a 'sky is falling' reaction on things that are really non-issues.

Jacob

Good thing that we can all agree to wait for the card to come out and the FAQ and Rules to reveal how our game pieces will work.

I'm reminded about the Scum Dials issue that existed months before the Scum ships were released and the issue was a non-issue.

Jacob

Actually, it was an issue. FFG reversed it at the last moment due to complaints.

Reversed it?

Since it was never 'issued' it was never reversed. Perhaps they changed their minds on what they intended to do, due to complaints, but they didn't change a ruling.

There was a bunch of people on the forums here threatening to quit. All based on speculation, not on the actual ruling. The point is, even now there's speculation on a potential issue. I'm sure FFG will resolve this, there's no reason to argue about a ruling. In fact, there's no real need to argue about much of what's argued here. Even now you're arguing that this was an issue, when in reality it doesn't really matter. I'm arguing back because I think some people here are too quick to jump to a 'sky is falling' reaction on things that are really non-issues.

Jacob

The ruling was issued and then reversed. I believe that the FAQ that accompanied Wave 6 had 3 different versions released in two days. The first of which prohibited cross faction dials.

It wasn't reversed so much as the first FAQ wasn't supposed to have been released in the first place. The supposed outrage never really entered into it.

I'm not wading through 200 posts.

I did. It was awful.

What, the most inane debate on the internet has petered out?

Why am I the last to the party?

Wait the taco vs burrito argument has stalled?

It was over a long time ago..once the chicken taco entered the arena it was all over.

Pics?

Good thing that we can all agree to wait for the card to come out and the FAQ and Rules to reveal how our game pieces will work.

I'm reminded about the Scum Dials issue that existed months before the Scum ships were released and the issue was a non-issue.

Jacob

Actually, it was an issue. FFG reversed it at the last moment due to complaints.

Reversed it?

Since it was never 'issued' it was never reversed. Perhaps they changed their minds on what they intended to do, due to complaints, but they didn't change a ruling.

There was a bunch of people on the forums here threatening to quit. All based on speculation, not on the actual ruling. The point is, even now there's speculation on a potential issue. I'm sure FFG will resolve this, there's no reason to argue about a ruling. In fact, there's no real need to argue about much of what's argued here. Even now you're arguing that this was an issue, when in reality it doesn't really matter. I'm arguing back because I think some people here are too quick to jump to a 'sky is falling' reaction on things that are really non-issues.

Jacob

A designer stated in a direct way that cross-faction dials would not be allowed.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?%2Ftopic%2F114166-scum-and-villainy-most-wanted-expantion-question%2Fpage-2#entry1224252

By the time the FAQ was released, the FAQ corroborated that this was at least the decision at one point in time (else they wouldn't have written it into an FAQ). A newer version of the FAQ then countered the statement of the designer and the first posted FAQ.

You may believe what you wish. Either FFG just up and changed a decision already made for no outside reason, or they actually did hear the complaints based upon "speculation" (if you define a response written by a designer speculation) and decide they needed to reverse the direction. I like to believe that the latter is much more likely, but everyone is welcome to their own delusions.

Either FFG just up and changed a decision already made for no outside reason, or they actually did hear the complaints based upon "speculation" (if you define a response written by a designer speculation) and decide they needed to reverse the direction.

Are those the only two options?

You can put him on Chirpy.

You can put him on Chirpy.

You can, but I don't believe that will be ideal. There won't be any defence die most of the time, and Chirpy doesn't need the help generating damage. Palps only purpose would be to help Soontir/Whisper/etc, and while that's good, it's not maximum value.

Kenkirk, on the other hand...

Either FFG just up and changed a decision already made for no outside reason, or they actually did hear the complaints based upon "speculation" (if you define a response written by a designer speculation) and decide they needed to reverse the direction.

Are those the only two options?

I was highly tempted just to leave an insincere reply of "Yes", but I know how the snarkiness gets around here nowadays.

They are pretty broad options, so they cover a lot of ground, and they cover the most likely ground. FFG decided on their own, or they responded to complaints.

Entirely possible that someone wrote the decision incorrectly into the FAQ, and the designer didn't know the ruling and looked it up in a pre-release version and then decided to release a ruling he barely knew even though they rarely "pre-release" any rulings at all. It is possible that Obama called them and said "I don't know if you are allowing cross-faction dials or not, but I only want to buy 1 Most Wanted pack, so hook me up." Or any other of the infinitely large number of possibilities that aren't nearly as likely.

jkokura's statements about there not being much point to arguing just seems odd to me. Sure, some stuff is utterly ridiculous (like this thread - just wait on a ruling), but plenty of other discussions are valid (balance concerns, cross-faction dials, official playmats, etc). FFG has admitted they peruse the forums and the vast majority of reports say they have excellent customer relations, yet we should expect that complaints on the forums never lead to FFG re-thinking a decision? Even though we've seen what seem to be one or two examples of that happening? Therefore complaining about something prior to release is utterly worthless as jkokura seems to imply?

I was highly tempted just to leave an insincere reply of "Yes", but I know how the snarkiness gets around here nowadays.

Probably a wise decision, considering the company you're in.

Entirely possible that someone wrote the decision incorrectly into the FAQ, and the designer didn't know the ruling and looked it up in a pre-release version and then decided to release a ruling he barely knew even though they rarely "pre-release" any rulings at all. It is possible that Obama called them and said "I don't know if you are allowing cross-faction dials or not, but I only want to buy 1 Most Wanted pack, so hook me up." Or any other of the infinitely large number of possibilities that aren't nearly as likely.

One of FFG's senior VPs told me that the first release was a mistake, and shouldn't have made it to print. That pretty much precludes the possibility of post-release outrage being the impetus for a second FAQ (which was more or less the impression I walked away with from our little chat). It's possible that the vocal minority here on these forums, who represent a fraction of the consumer base, had an impact on FFG's decision making before the FAQ was released. That's assuming quite a bit of influence on our part, which may be a stretch considering how little influence we've had with FFG on other fronts.

jkokura's statements about there not being much point to arguing just seems odd to me. Sure, some stuff is utterly ridiculous (like this thread - just wait on a ruling), but plenty of other discussions are valid (balance concerns, cross-faction dials, official playmats, etc). FFG has admitted they peruse the forums and the vast majority of reports say they have excellent customer relations, yet we should expect that complaints on the forums never lead to FFG re-thinking a decision? Even though we've seen what seem to be one or two examples of that happening? Therefore complaining about something prior to release is utterly worthless as jkokura seems to imply?

I didn't say there was no point to arguing, it just seems fruitless to have so many people acquire angst over something that may, or may not be a thing. If the ruling was and always had meant to be that there was no cross faction dial usage, I could see people getting upset. It seems to me that people got upset before any information was out, and instead of doing something fruitful (like emailing FFG's customer support staff) they got on here and said 'I'm quitting'.

Likewise, instead of doing something productive, like noticing a potential ruling issue on some cards (Moff and Palpy), and seeing that things could go either way because there are two arguments to be made either direction, and then emailing FFG's customer support to inform them of you thought that this should be clarified, people come on the forums and express a little angst for a while.

I'm not saying that arguments aren't worth having, I just think they're worth having over things that are actually issues. This isn't an issue yet. Some people interpret the rules one way, others interpret them the opposite way. There's no need to ridicule people's thoughts on the issue, just wait and see what FFG say.

Jacob

Now I'm picturing the Emperor sitting in the turret manning an Anti-Pursuit Laser.

He gets a kick out of it. It's like the videos of senior citizens playing Mortal Kombat and GTA:V.

What, the most inane debate on the internet has petered out?

Why am I the last to the party?

most inane debate on the internet?

did you just discover the world-wide-web today ?

Yeah, I've seen a lot of worse that could bring entire boards to their knees in flame wars back in the nineties for example. Frenzy is red, Rumble is blue for instance (on the Transformers usenet groups), do Balrogs have physical wings is another.

Let's look at Magic: The Gathering (after all those years that is the best thing you could refer to in such cases in my opinion):

A card that destroys a "creature" also destroys "enchantment creature" even though it only states one of the listed types, just like cards that destroy enchantments can kill it.

Another one - protection from white colour also gives you protection from (white)(red) cards because they already fulfill the condition. It doesn't matter if it has red, blue or all five colours - it still meets the condition with the white symbol.

Bla bla, bla bla bla - bla bla. So, bla bla bla bla, bla bla bla! Bla bla, bla bla bla bla bla bla. Bla bla bla bla bla...

Wow, that's quite some way to come off like a total ******, congratulations, sir!

I was highly tempted just to leave an insincere reply of "Yes", but I know how the snarkiness gets around here nowadays.

Probably a wise decision, considering the company you're in.

Entirely possible that someone wrote the decision incorrectly into the FAQ, and the designer didn't know the ruling and looked it up in a pre-release version and then decided to release a ruling he barely knew even though they rarely "pre-release" any rulings at all. It is possible that Obama called them and said "I don't know if you are allowing cross-faction dials or not, but I only want to buy 1 Most Wanted pack, so hook me up." Or any other of the infinitely large number of possibilities that aren't nearly as likely.

One of FFG's senior VPs told me that the first release was a mistake, and shouldn't have made it to print. That pretty much precludes the possibility of post-release outrage being the impetus for a second FAQ (which was more or less the impression I walked away with from our little chat). It's possible that the vocal minority here on these forums, who represent a fraction of the consumer base, had an impact on FFG's decision making before the FAQ was released. That's assuming quite a bit of influence on our part, which may be a stretch considering how little influence we've had with FFG on other fronts.

Well, I don't think we have much to argue about then. The picture I was trying to paint was an outrage over the designer's response that led to a change. My only reason for mentioning the first FAQ was that it showed is it was pretty likely that was the decision at some point (and probably not that the designer's response was mis-quoted/misinterpreted, etc).

There really was not much time for much outrage between FAQs. We got somewhat official/somewhat unofficial information prior to release, and it is well within the realm of possibility that complaints led to them reversing their decision. And since it is a very simple way to get from A to B, and also a very common way for businesses to reconsider decisions, it is not only possible but pretty likely this was the reason.

Maybe. I know that we had absolutely zero impact on the mat decision; that was a mistake from the outset, and never intended to be a thing, let alone make its way into the tournament rules.

jkokura's statements about there not being much point to arguing just seems odd to me. Sure, some stuff is utterly ridiculous (like this thread - just wait on a ruling), but plenty of other discussions are valid (balance concerns, cross-faction dials, official playmats, etc). FFG has admitted they peruse the forums and the vast majority of reports say they have excellent customer relations, yet we should expect that complaints on the forums never lead to FFG re-thinking a decision? Even though we've seen what seem to be one or two examples of that happening? Therefore complaining about something prior to release is utterly worthless as jkokura seems to imply?

I didn't say there was no point to arguing, it just seems fruitless to have so many people acquire angst over something that may, or may not be a thing. If the ruling was and always had meant to be that there was no cross faction dial usage, I could see people getting upset. It seems to me that people got upset before any information was out, and instead of doing something fruitful (like emailing FFG's customer support staff) they got on here and said 'I'm quitting'.

I understand your point, but in that particular case, you were wrong. FFG had officially(accidently?) ruled cross-dial play was illegal. People complained. FFG released an FAQ reversing the(accidental?) ruling. This wasn't assumption, but fact. Unlike the silly x1 or Moff J arguments, this one actually needed to be fixed, and it was. Would it have been changed if no one complained? Who knows. Same goes for ordinance, phantoms, autothrusters, ect.

jkokura's statements about there not being much point to arguing just seems odd to me. Sure, some stuff is utterly ridiculous (like this thread - just wait on a ruling), but plenty of other discussions are valid (balance concerns, cross-faction dials, official playmats, etc). FFG has admitted they peruse the forums and the vast majority of reports say they have excellent customer relations, yet we should expect that complaints on the forums never lead to FFG re-thinking a decision? Even though we've seen what seem to be one or two examples of that happening? Therefore complaining about something prior to release is utterly worthless as jkokura seems to imply?

I didn't say there was no point to arguing, it just seems fruitless to have so many people acquire angst over something that may, or may not be a thing. If the ruling was and always had meant to be that there was no cross faction dial usage, I could see people getting upset. It seems to me that people got upset before any information was out, and instead of doing something fruitful (like emailing FFG's customer support staff) they got on here and said 'I'm quitting'.

Likewise, instead of doing something productive, like noticing a potential ruling issue on some cards (Moff and Palpy), and seeing that things could go either way because there are two arguments to be made either direction, and then emailing FFG's customer support to inform them of you thought that this should be clarified, people come on the forums and express a little angst for a while.

I'm not saying that arguments aren't worth having, I just think they're worth having over things that are actually issues. This isn't an issue yet. Some people interpret the rules one way, others interpret them the opposite way. There's no need to ridicule people's thoughts on the issue, just wait and see what FFG say.

Jacob

I agree the Moff/Palpatine discussion is totally pointless. There will be a ruling, neither of which is likely to cause outrage.

However, you did paint a much broader brush. You said "there's no real need to argue about much of what's argued here." and you used cross faction dials to illustrate that point. It seems to me that cross faction dials are in fact a counter to your statement that "there's no real need to argue about much of what's argued here."

I think we can broadly agree that arguing card interactions prior to release is pointless. But I can't agree that arguing other things, such as cross faction dials, prior to release isn't worth some discussion.

What, the most inane debate on the internet has petered out?

Why am I the last to the party?

Because you are like the Emperor at the end of ROTJ: late.

I understand your point, but in that particular case, you were wrong. FFG had officially(accidently?) ruled cross-dial play was illegal. People complained. FFG released an FAQ reversing the(accidental?) ruling. This wasn't assumption, but fact. Unlike the silly x1 or Moff J arguments, this one actually needed to be fixed, and it was. Would it have been changed if no one complained? Who knows.

You're absolutely right, we don't know. That's why we should take great care not to infer a causal relationship that may simply be pure coincidence.

I understand your point, but in that particular case, you were wrong. FFG had officially(accidently?) ruled cross-dial play was illegal. People complained. FFG released an FAQ reversing the(accidental?) ruling. This wasn't assumption, but fact. Unlike the silly x1 or Moff J arguments, this one actually needed to be fixed, and it was. Would it have been changed if no one complained? Who knows.

You're absolutely right, we don't know. That's why we should take great care not to infer a causal relationship that may simply be pure coincidence.

We also shouldn't assume that there is no possibility of a causal relationship, and therefore stop bringing up issues because of it.

I'm a little surprised we went a whole 7 pages without anyone asking the question: If I kill the Emperor, shouldn't I just win?

I do feel this is a legitimate question, from a fluff perspective. Or, at the very least, if I kill the Emperor AND Vader...I win?

I wondered the same thing...

I'm a little surprised we went a whole 7 pages without anyone asking the question: If I kill the Emperor, shouldn't I just win?

I do feel this is a legitimate question, from a fluff perspective. Or, at the very least, if I kill the Emperor AND Vader...I win?

The empire will continue in some form even without Palpy and Vader.

Nope sorry...