Hi Guys

In the game in which I GM players have suggested that spellcasters are too weak in relation to other characters. All melee = ST + Weapon DMG + cards effects, Range = AG + Weapon DMG + cards effects, but Spellcasters have only INT + card effects. So the question is this: Are they underpowered in combat? If so is this fair since they have other non combat skills? Or is it imbalanced unfairly? And if so how to fix it?

My party have suggested a house rule to add a spellcasters INT + WP + card effects. If they do need a slight boost I thought the easiest house rule would be to simply add the DMG rating of the Wizards staff to any spells total DMG. Thoughts? Has anyone else met this issue and if so how have you handled it?

Thanks in advance for your suggestions

Noely

PS. Apologies If this topic has been discussed before but, I can't find it.

I've not had any of my players suggest they couldn't be effective as magic users, having had a bright wizard, light wizard and priest of sigmar so far. There is a need to choose spells carefully (spells that can ignore armour soak, for example, are better than a Pierce effect) and the wizards have been careful to maximize their Ints.

Sure Rank 1 Bright Flameblast only base damage is 4+ Int, but it's an attack against single challenge instead of Defense (effectively ignore all defense reactions, armour defense) with easy scale ups in damage and crits.

A wizard can often get more fortune dice on spells than most fighters on attacks (spec, wpn and stat for fighter vs spec, multiples stacking career/item, and stat) for wizard.

Add additional spells to their spells allowed from any 1-2 secondary source: Example: Amythest wizard can take two spells from any other wizard or priest list (example Taal and another one from Sigmar). This helps diversify. We have used this rule with great success and it also helps get more use out of your product that you spent all this money on

The requirement is that those secondary spells must be of one Rank less than your primary emphasis.

jh

Most melee or ranged attack actions are roughly on par with Rank _2_ spells. So wizards start off with slightly weaker combat actions at Rank 1, but if they survive long enough to get the big Rank 3+ spells, they become _much_ stronger. It's not really worth playing a wizard for a one-shot, but if you're playing for 20+ sessions they eventually outpace the other characters. The gap gets huge at the later ranks, as there are a few area-effect attacks that can wipe out multiple Nemesis-level targets in a single action. As others have said, careful spell selection is very important.

It's really easy to min-max a wizard, since Intelligence is not only their attack stat but also the stat that's used with such a wide variety of skills. It's worth noting that there are several Talents that let you roll Intelligence instead of some other attribute for various other skill rolls. So even at Rank 1 when their attack spells are kind of sucky, wizards get a lot of spotlight time and are very effective overall. If you're good at Strength, all you can do is smash things. If you're good at Intelligence, you can find clues and interact with people (as well as smash things with magic).

My party have suggested a house rule to add a spellcasters INT + WP + card effects. If they do need a slight boost I thought the easiest house rule would be to simply add the DMG rating of the Wizards staff to any spells total DMG. Thoughts? Has anyone else met this issue and if so how have you handled it?

In regards to that specifically: I'd tread with caution there. Many of the spells have other advantages to counterbalance the low damage. Sure, with a Rank 1 spell you're doing less damage than most melee or ranged attack actions because you don't have a weapon bonus, but you're often also avoiding dodge and/or defense and/or armor soak. If you add + WP damage to the Rank 1 spells to make them more competitive with other non-spell attack cards, you'll have a problem when the wizard levels up and has access to higher-Rank spells that do more damage or hit multiple targets.

Also, keep in mind that spells have certain other less-tangible (or at least less-obvious) benefits over weapon-based attack cards. If you're someplace where you can't reach your weapon (attacked in your sleep, captured and locked in a dungeon, or attending a nobleman's ball) non-wizards find their options and power-level greatly curtailed, but wizards still operate at full strength. Archers have to worry about ammunition, which can be expensive or heavy for the better ranged weapons but is free for wizards (though they have the extra hurdle of quick-casting to help balance that). Spell attacks may be stealthier or at least leave less damning evidence (in the eyes of the city watch, at least) than hacking someone apart with a sword. Etc. There's a lot of little ways that wizards come out ahead even with Rank 1 spells, if the player is thoughtful and creative.

There's a lot of trade-offs involved in the choice to be a caster -- they start out a little weak in damage, but they've got a lot of flexibility and will eventually be more powerful than the other characters. They don't quite have the "Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards" trope as strongly as old school D&D, but their power level is hard to judge accurately at lower Ranks.

Hmm

The discussion rumbles on in our group. I wonder if we're missing something. I run a fairly low fantasy game and this is the first magic user in our games. He isn't high level yet but as a Celestial Wizard he and I are wondering about the super powerful attacks of which you speak are.

In our game we use the Core Rules and the POD. The player suggested that perhaps you are referring to Bright Magic Order. But outside of this how do the other orders stack up at high levels? And is this covered somewhere that we missed? e.g. Hero's Call?

I'd be grateful for your input. And R B Bergrstrom if you could clarify with some examples of Spells and their order then that would be great. I'm keen to get to the bottom of this.

Noely

In general the most powerful attack spells are found in the bright order. The celestial order lean more toward dice manipulation in any situation rather than combat, through the different portent spells and some other spells that see the future. These can also aid in combat, and often help both the wizard himself, or other characters in the party. There's aslo some neat movement manipulation through flight, teleportation and astral projection. Besides, they are often better in Int and WP than most other characters, giving them an edge in a lot of skill checks.

Obviously there are some combat spells, both defensive and offensive. but the damage output will probably not compare to that of a Bright order, or other combat characters. The celestial order has a few ok damage spells, but they won't outshine a combat character. Allthough, a fun thing about many of the celestial attack spells is that they have long, or even unlimited range, something few others have access to.

Most Wizard orders add versatility and options you would not get any other way, but they are seldom as good in combat if the focus only on their wizard careers. If you want to have a "Combat wizard" I'd suggest either taking at least few out of career points in weapon skill, or even go into the soldier career (or similar) and improve weapon skill, strenght, get some regular combat actions and so on. Then a celestial wizard might use their portent cards to manipulate dice in combat, use curse to weaken foes, armour spells etc to improve their own defences etc.

Indeed, it's not D&D, a wizard has different tricks to pull depending on their school. If you want your best trick to be "bang, it's dead" play a Bright Order mage - that's the closest you're getting. If you're playing a different order you may not be as effective directly in a fight (at least not at first, the higher level light wizard in my campaign was very effective) but you have other things you can do. The Light Mage player in my game was fine, for example, often being the reason another PC was effective enough - that's feature of Celestial Mage too (everyone wants you to cast Harmonic Convergence and First Portent, Curse the main target) - yes Lightning and Shooting Star are not stunning attacks but they also don't require you to get up close and personal (Lighting is Long range and Shooting Star is "see it" range), and again if you want to be a combat monster, be a Bright Mage.

Hmm

The discussion rumbles on in our group. I wonder if we're missing something. I run a fairly low fantasy game and this is the first magic user in our games. He isn't high level yet but as a Celestial Wizard he and I are wondering about the super powerful attacks of which you speak are.

In our game we use the Core Rules and the POD. The player suggested that perhaps you are referring to Bright Magic Order. But outside of this how do the other orders stack up at high levels? And is this covered somewhere that we missed? e.g. Hero's Call?

I'd be grateful for your input. And R B Bergrstrom if you could clarify with some examples of Spells and their order then that would be great. I'm keen to get to the bottom of this.

Noely

Basically every order has one either high-damage single-target spell, or a multiple target AoE damage. The Area of Effect spells often let you sidestep Defense by announcing the weakest henchman as your primary target. Bright and Celestial Order have more attack spells than the others, but they're also 2 of the 3 Orders that had PODs published. Only having 1 or 2 really good attack spell choices does seem limited, but you have to remember this isn't D&D. There's no reason why your wizard can't swing a sword (or by a melee action), and the penalty for a little armour isn't too horrendous either as long as you choose your spells carefully.

When you're looking at spells, the green and red side are often VERY different. So you might dismiss something at first glance without realizing that the other side of the card rocks. If you're not seeing awesomeness in the Celestial Order attack spells, you're probably only looking at the Green side.

I'll list Max Damage by attack spell below. I'm listing only notable spells of either high damage or AoE, generally Rank 3+. First-rank spells are usually weaker than non-spell attack cards, but higher-rank spells are very competitive. Sure, they aren't quite Reckless Cleave, but what is? I'm treating all relevant Stats as if they were 5s, which they probably will be. (Admittedly, that may be over-selling the three spells that do Int + WP + Fel damage by a point or two, but I'd already done the math before realizing that, and I don't want to flip through my card binder again to figure out which ones they were)

For comparison:

Melee Strike with a Hand Weapon = 12 damage.

Reckless Cleave with a Hand Weapon is 18 damage, plus 2 criticals. Most GMs agree that card is seriously over-powered.

Most other melee attack Actions are roughly ~14 damage, though it varies from card to card.

Amber Order

Amber Talons: 16+ damage (depending on stance depth), +1 crit, then hit a second target for ~14 damage (the second target can be someone with a higher defense than the original target and they can't do anything about it).

Amethyst Order

Caress of Laniph: 16 damage ignoring Armour (plus 1 crit), _or_ 18+ damage (+1 damage per boon) plus 1 crit (but having to deal with armor as normal), depending on which side.

Bright Order

Bolt of Aqshy: 26 damage, plus 3 criticals

Flamestorm: Multiple targets suffer 11 dmg + a critical, then it happens again immediately, and then it happens again at the end of every round

Piercing Bolts of Burning: 18+ dmg, ignore armour soak, plus 1 critical and bonus wounds equal to its severity

Fireball Barrage: Multiple targets suffer 19+ damage (depending on stance depth), plus 2 criticals, plus every foe in medium range gets the scorched condition (which also inflicts damage over time)

Celestial Order

Lightning: 9 damage ignoring all Armour, plus a critical, and a second target takes ~7 ignoring Armour.

Comet of Cassandora: Multiple targets suffer 17 damage ignoring armour

Urannon's Thunderbolt: 15 ignoring Armour, plus a critical, plus knocks them back (either hit a wall for 4+ unsoakable wounds, or fall off a cliff if there is one)

Meteor Swarm: Multiple targets suffer 21 damage

Gold Order

Arha's Quicksilver Spear: Two targets suffer 15 damage, Pierce 2, and a crit. Since this doesn't target Defense, there's nothing the victims can do to dodge etc.

Grey Order

Penumbral Pendulum: Multiple targets suffer 17 damage, and then next turn they suffer it again

Jade Order

Lance of Nature: 14 damage, 3 criticals

Fury of the North Wind: Multiple targets suffer 12 damage each, and 1 stress and 1 fatigue each (basically 14 damage vs non-Nemesis NPCs)

Light Order

Daemonbane: 16 damage, but only to Daemons. Light Order kinda gets shafted unless they're facing their preferred enemy.

And that's not mentioning the NPC spells at all. Some of them are pretty strong (but others are terribly weak).

Ok thanks guys And specially to R B Bergstrom for going above and beyond with the research. You make the case very strongly for not tinkering with the current system for fear of breaking it still further at some point in the future. Just one question though. I couldn't find the Comet of Cassandora which you mention. Any ideas what I"m missing?

I couldn't find the Comet of Cassandora which you mention. Any ideas what I"m missing?

I think it was in Hero's Call. I don't have my cards readily available today to be sure, but that's the set I'd expect it to have been printed in.

If you've got that and still aren't seeing it, flip the cards over. Sometimes the green and red sides have different names. (I don't think this one does, but again, I'm not near my cards at the moment.)

Personally its not the Power I find lacking in the 3rd edition magic system its the lack of additional supporting magical mechanics that's missing, from Lesser magic's to Ritual creation and really Rituals and to a lesser extent the development of new personal spells based on the Wizards ability to manipulate its wind that's missing though the latter I'd avoid unless the GM is willing to spend time with the player and knows if something becomes exploitable or comes out far beyond what was intended the players aren't going to moan at changes to said effects.

Rituals where handled excellently in 2nd in my opinion the rules were pretty simple highly flexible and my players always put way harsher conditions into play than I'd have done alone making for great personal investment, they do require a huge amount of GM input which should be down outside of game time because no single player should dominate a GM's attention like is required for such developments. In addition you've got the rules for potions wasn't keen on these in there direct format but I like the idea of making charms, magical poultices, poisons or wards and the like much in the style of Santeria Vodoo. For general spells though I do really feel the lack of lesser magic while often trivial is something that provides wizards a huge amount of utility and theme. Also Familar binding or creating, summoning full stop really or the creation of Golems, Wicker Men, pursuits of greater Necromancy, Blood Magic, Elemental Pacts or Spirit Pacts. Also the creation of forging magical items (other than Dwarfs) beyond those attuned for channelling.

Essentially the core of college magic is in place in 3rd edition, alone with the Divine Faiths found in the Empire but Witch Craft, Hedge Wizardry, Seers/mysticism Dark Magic (NOT DHAR MAGIC -used by Dark Elves which is something Else entirely) Waaagh Magic, Lores of Skaven Magic, Lores of Chaos Magic, Lores of Minor Evil Deities, High Magic, Gut magic, or Geomancy are barely if at all covered by the rules currently nor are various lesser spells along with the previously missing Ritual and Developed magical pursuits that in my opinion are the entire point of playing a Magic user as it provides on going learning and development to both the player and the character in a far more immersed way.

Just my thoughts on the subject anyway. Thanks for reading

crimsonsun

I just want to add, that Wizards alsow have alot of other uses instead of fighting that other characters can never do. Like magical sight, or, Piety and have cards like loock into the future, make roots grow stuff that are realy cool and can be very effectiv if are uses strategic..