The only solution would be to have 4 different Joust starters. Having 2 factions in each starting box. Then it would be possible to put "full" playable deck in the box and also have those extras, for those who need full 3. But then there would be many "not" useful cards to casual players. So Starter box has always been casual player friendly, who newer ever buy more that one box.

I expect, and hope, this will be a more pure singleton experience like that of Conquest (rather than 1e GoT or Netrunner) as that made a complete core playset a much more enjoyable environment in which to play.

Conquest never caught on here, but that was more on the LGS and the huge delay in shipping (caused by the California dock workers union strike) rather than any fault of the purchase scheme. People who play card games know that they are expensive walking in.

At least this way we have to buy three core sets anyway (don't lie to yourself and say you didn't have at least three 1e cores by the end of everyone... I had 6), and we get a much wider selection of cards with which to play for the few months we'll be wading in the GoT shallow end before the first cycle begins to come out.

I'm heading to Gencon with one goal. Three core sets of GoT in my possession. Nothing else matters.

there are only like 20 singletons in netrunner and a like 60 2 of. basically you will be adding 100 cards, now a normal 60 card thing costs 15$ and most of it is mark up and so on and so forth. so realisticly each of those cards costs no more than 2-3c to make so they will increase their manifucaturing costs by like a dollar maybe 2 to put a playset of everything. even if it is 10c then it is still 10$ increase.

i dont necessarily like to buy 3 sets of tokens and boxes and things i wont need but on another hand it is probably more for the noobs. they buy it break the seal off one of the decks and start playing. if there were full playsets then there should explanations of what cards to add or remove for a tutorial game. also it is easier to balance the beginer decks + easier to keep down effects that are too powerful out of the expirience for new players. imagine if some premade deck in magic came with 4 day of judgments... that would be super frustrating for new players.

and to the homeboy that cant afford them but wants to go to tournaments and pwn people. it just costs money bro.when you see an ffg game just know that the price is to play on the kitchen table. if you want to play competitively just x 3.

personally i dislike it, i think that ffg should look into subsidizing or at best breaking even and making their money off expansions and such. it is a very tried and true business model that i just dont understand why they dont do. like lets say they make 3x more from a core than from a expansion. if you have 3x the users ebcause you basically gave them the core for free you will be swiming in a lot more money in like 2 expansion sets.

i think that ffg should look into subsidizing or at best breaking even and making their money off expansions and such.

I believe they already do that (or come very close). A deluxe box costs 29.95 for 165 cards (0.175c/card) or 55 unique cards (0.54$/card), while the core costs 39.95 for ~250 cards (0.165/card) or ~220 unique cards (?) (~18c/card). Given that each unique card costs more, as there are art (and design) costs, and that the core set includes a rules guide, learn to play guide, tokens, a larger box and more weight (and larger shipping costs), and that *retailers* are generally too small to afford shelf-space on a 0-profit product (so some markup has to happen at the store), I strongly suspect Core boxes are the lowest profit margins for FFG - and they involve some big up-front costs (lisencing/templating/designing the rules system) that probably only become worthwhile if they can sell CPs/Deluxe boxes.

Chapter packs, with 20 unique cards (0.74c /unique card, 24.9c/card) are where their real profits likely lie.

i think that ffg should look into subsidizing or at best breaking even and making their money off expansions and such.

I believe they already do that (or come very close). A deluxe box costs 29.95 for 165 cards (0.175c/card) or 55 unique cards (0.54$/card), while the core costs 39.95 for ~250 cards (0.165/card) or ~220 unique cards (?) (~18c/card). Given that each unique card costs more, as there are art (and design) costs, and that the core set includes a rules guide, learn to play guide, tokens, a larger box and more weight (and larger shipping costs), and that *retailers* are generally too small to afford shelf-space on a 0-profit product (so some markup has to happen at the store), I strongly suspect Core boxes are the lowest profit margins for FFG - and they involve some big up-front costs (lisencing/templating/designing the rules system) that probably only become worthwhile if they can sell CPs/Deluxe boxes.

Chapter packs, with 20 unique cards (0.74c /unique card, 24.9c/card) are where their real profits likely lie.

cards are at most 4c to manifacture but probably around 3-4c. Retailers pay at most 8$ per (which is why coolstuff sells for 10 for instance.) My point is that including an additional 100 cards (for which they do not need to make new art or licencing) is at most 4$ extra. But you are correct that they probably make zilch on core sets. Since stores get the core sets for probably 25$ at most + distributor takes a chunk + shipping + manifacturing... the manifacturing is the lowest chunk most of the time.

point is i wish they could subsidize a little and make cores 30$. I think that will easily double their playerbase and with games there is a critical mass that can turn it from a niche into a big thing.i also think that they should start doing premade decks like magic does. you buy it for 20$ and it comes a complete deck with a few tokens that you can take to a tournament. this will make it easier for new players to get into the game and such.

i think most of their games (especially some of the stuff this year and last year) are just incredible and deserve to be played by everyone everywhere and I feel that a little bit of business this or that can make it huge. also they should try and lower the fiddly stuff. i think one of the biggest things keeping this down is the amount of token needed for every game.

i think most of their games (especially some of the stuff this year and last year) are just incredible and deserve to be played by everyone everywhere and I feel that a little bit of business this or that can make it huge. also they should try and lower the fiddly stuff. i think one of the biggest things keeping this down is the amount of token needed for every game.

Tokens. LOL, ain't that the truth.

"... you will be swiming in a lot more money in like 2 expansion sets"

"I think that will easily double their playerbase"

"this will make it easier for new players to get into the game".

"I feel that a little bit of business this or that can make it huge"

"one of the biggest things keeping this down"

Unfortunately it's really easy to armchair quarterback business decisions. Such speculations are usually wrong. If they were right, they'd already be doing it. Particularly with pie-in-the-sky projections about losing money up front but making it up on volume and repeat purchases.

Sorry. FFG has repeatedly said that AGOT2E represents the cumulative lessons learned from producing all their LCGs. So if there's some strategy that you think they should be doing and they're not, there's probably a reason for that.

I reread this and actually I came across as harsher than I intended. What I mean to say is there's a great temptation to extrapolate from a single data point--one's self--and extrapolate generalities. "I would want X," therefore "lots of people would want X," and therefore "X would be a good business decision." And that is not a conclusion that can be reached on the basis of one person's desires and some scratch-paper cost calculations. I don't want to be unkind, but you don't have their knowledge of production constraints, costs, licensing fees, and their years of experience in the market.

Whether I need to buy one or three Core sets to play this game, I'm going to buy it regardless. I just hope we won't have to wait until October to buy the Second Edition.

I reread this and actually I came across as harsher than I intended. What I mean to say is there's a great temptation to extrapolate from a single data point--one's self--and extrapolate generalities. "I would want X," therefore "lots of people would want X," and therefore "X would be a good business decision." And that is not a conclusion that can be reached on the basis of one person's desires and some scratch-paper cost calculations. I don't want to be unkind, but you don't have their knowledge of production constraints, costs, licensing fees, and their years of experience in the market.

no worries, it doesn't matter for me as i spend several hundred (sometimes thousands) of dollars on games a month. i love a lot of games that just don't make it big as they should (based on quality etc.) and just want FFG to succeed. as you said i am probably wrong but there have been a few decisions, particularly with Imperial Assault, that have really limited the amount of players and such.

their games are awesome and i feel their are not as successful as their quality and given that we are talking about things like star wars, lord of the rings and game of thrones this stuff should be selling like hot cakes. i mean if 1% of the people that watch agot played this game you would literally be able to catch a game at the bus stop.

given that we are talking about things like star wars, lord of the rings and game of thrones this stuff should be selling like hot cakes. i mean if 1% of the people that watch agot played this game you would literally be able to catch a game at the bus stop.

Are they for sure only including one copy of each card in the Core Set? I was really hoping they would give the full 3 copies..

According to their website, based on the recommended packs of sleeves, the box will contain 201-250 cards.

The cards spoiled so far range from 001 - 211, so the box will contain at least 211 different cards.

This makes it "very unlikely" that the Core Set will contain 3 copies of each card, more likely the exact opposite.

My guess, based on the informations we have, is that

the box will have 223 cards total ,

with 211 different cards ,

and 12 duplicates (2 plots, 2 neutral, 1 per faction).

This would allow the creation of 4 (reduced) out-of-the box melee decks containing 45 cards, by combining all the cards of any 2 factions (20 cards each) with 5 neutral cards, and a plot deck of 7 cards for each player.

Are they for sure only including one copy of each card in the Core Set? I was really hoping they would give the full 3 copies..

We don't know the exact numbers, but it will likely be similar to the Conquest core, which was mainly single copies of cards with a few duplicates. There's no chance the core will contain a complete playset.

According to their website, based on the recommended packs of sleeves, the box will contain 201-250 cards.

The cards spoiled so far range from 001 - 211, so the box will contain at least 211 different cards.

This makes it "very unlikely" that the Core Set will contain 3 copies of each card, more likely the exact opposite.

My guess, based on the informations we have, is that

the box will have 223 cards total ,

with 211 different cards ,

and 12 duplicates (2 plots, 2 neutral, 1 per faction).

This would allow the creation of 4 (reduced) out-of-the box melee decks containing 45 cards, by combining all the cards of any 2 factions (20 cards each) with 5 neutral cards, and a plot deck of 7 cards for each player.

This basically makes sense. There is a bit of wiggle room (from 223 to 250) for additional duplicated cards, in- or out-of faction, but what you describe seems the most likely scenario (the next likliest would be 4x50 card decks, which would require 243 cards total, and still seems permissable.

The min. deck size is definitely going to remain at 60 though, yes? Not 50?

The last we heard on that subject officially was an interview done by 2C1C with Mike Hurley just after Worlds 2014. At the time, he said the decksize was still 60 - but that was obviously before testing. We havent seen anything on the subject since, to my knowledge... but I m also not sure if that s the kind of thing that changes in testing.

Yeah, until FFG releases the rules document (or something like 2C1C or Quill and Tankard can spoil it) we don't know for sure what the legal deck size is anymore. Even if it is 60, I wouldn't expect us to be able to make those with just one Core. There're so many factions to support, and the original Thrones Core just featured four 45 card decks.

A single Conquest core let you build two usable decks at one time but they were short of the 'legal' deck size. My guess is you will need two cores to field a true deck at tournament level. That said, demo decks or starter decks are a great way to focus on mechanics of the new game and, as cards cycle into play faster, you can learn the new abilities and interactions before moving up to a competition level.

You wouldn't be very short with a single Conquest Core Set (and you'd certainly be able to make a single legal deck with the neutrals in 2x). You need a second Core Set to really deckbuild, though.

For AGoT 2nd Ed, we have 18 distinct neutral cards (excluding the agenda) and 19 distinct cards for each faction (some of which will be loyal). So far, we have seen 5 loyal Lannister cards and 4 loyal Stark cards, so let's assume 5 for each faction. That'll bring us to decks with 19 (main faction) + 14 (allied faction) + 18 (neutral) = 51 distinct cards. Unless at least 3 cards in each faction (including neutral) are in x2, 60 card decks won't be possible.

You could build a tournament legal deck with just a single core of Conquest. In fact, several people had to do exactly that for Gencon.

Also, the only faction combination that wasn't legal size with 1 copy of each neutral was Ork with Chaos allies. Every other combination of factions are either 50 or 51 card decks if you take 1x of each neutral and all copies of non-loyal cards. Any faction can make a legal deck in Conquest with 1 core if you have access to all the neutrals for the deck.

The emails I've gotten regarding the Kingslayer tournament at Gen Con haven't given me any insight as to what decks are possible with one core set.

I have to assume with deckbuilding basically consisting of Faction A + Non-loyal Faction B + All Neutrals, that we're going to have a lot of "Any Given Sunday" results where a lot of it's going to come down to who best can pilot their plot deck...

we're going to have a lot of "Any Given Sunday" results where a lot of it's going to come down to who best can pilot their plot deck...

That's a huge part of the game, though, don't you think? Like, all else being equal, the better plot timing will quite often determine the victor, at least in Joust.

Nah. 1.0 card pool had vast oceans of completely non viable deck builds. I certain was completely unable to build a competitive deck at all, piloting or no piloting.

You could build a tournament legal deck with just a single core of Conquest. In fact, several people had to do exactly that for Gencon.

Also, the only faction combination that wasn't legal size with 1 copy of each neutral was Ork with Chaos allies. Every other combination of factions are either 50 or 51 card decks if you take 1x of each neutral and all copies of non-loyal cards. Any faction can make a legal deck in Conquest with 1 core if you have access to all the neutrals for the deck.

Actually, there are 4 combinations that result in 49-card decks (using only 1 set of neutrals), and Nazdreg/Chaos isn't one them (it's one the 2 combinations with 51 cards). Since the doubled cards are always non-loyal and each faction has 29 cards (including signatures and doubled cards), the relevant factor is how many loyal cards the allied faction has. Chaos has only 5 loyal cards, so combinations with them give 51-card decks (29 from main, 16 from ally, 6 neutrals); Space Marines, Orks, Dark Eldar and Tau have 6 loyal cards each, so combinations with them result in 50-card decks (29 from main, 15 from ally, 6 neutrals); Astra Militarum and Eldar have 7 loyal cards each, so combinations with them result in 49-card decks (29 from main, 14 from ally, 6 neutrals).