So my little acolyte group have found flamers. Is there a good way to counter this ? The flamethrowers seem to destroy any human type enemy without much trouble and the limitations of roll20 mean that if I want a game with close combat I have to use very high resolution. A lot of big bad evil guys don't seem to have any defense against flame.

A few ideas:

The best defense against flamers is range. Just shoot them from way back.

Use environments with flammable/explosive stuff. If they insist to use flamers in enclosed spaces, just set the room on fire and let them deal with that.

Try charging into melee and position the enemies in a way that, if they want to use the flamer, they'll have to shoot their fellow acolytes.

Flamers destroy lootable equipment of the enemy. If they burn the neat powersword of the enemy to cinder, I guess they'll think again when using it the next time. It may also destroy useful information/evidence. Just make it harder on them, because they'll destroyed the important map/document/whatever the enemy was holding.

Out of battle consequences: Most people won't look very favourably upon people who set everything on fire they encounter.

All of the above. Plus they're not easily concealable. Why are you walking around town with a flamethrower? What's wrong with you!?

"Flamers destroy lootable equipment of the enemy. If they burn the neat powersword of the enemy to cinder, I guess they'll think again when using it the next time. It may also destroy useful information/evidence. Just make it harder on them, because they'll destroyed the important map/document/whatever the enemy was holding."

-madmaexx

This one I've done before. They lost a plasma pistol and a lot of information when they flamed an elevator full of guys. The problem isn't just flamers. It's hand flamers too, which can be easily carried indoors.

http://imgur.com/OPVZZAu

My problem right now is that they shut down a lot of powerful enemies. It's been suggested to be that marines at this point wouldn't stand a chance against them because they'd just flame them and then ping them to death.

I don't see how a marine at -16 damage could be bypassed by flamers, except with a very lucky hit. No damage, no burning condition.

-Make your adversaries do call shot and target the cans of the flamers.

-Don't forget your adversay roll agi to see if they get hit, then they can dodge the attack.

-If your acolytes are low on subtlety, let your cultists/ennemies equip themselves with anti-flames gels and other stuff that can help extinguish fire or make them harder to be put aflame.

Targeting the flamer itself doesn't exist in rules. It would have to be house ruled.

Anti-flamer gel seems like something you'd only see at the end of a long investigation into the same organization. It's not a bad idea. It's again a house rule.

I do let the adversaries dodge and make their agility rolls to avoid being set on fire. Sometimes they do avoid it. It's just that you are dealing with a template that is harder to dodge than a single bullet. The main thing is large showpiece bad guys often get flamed once and they are out. This last session the BBEG dodged a shotgun blast, then spent the rest of the battle on fire due to a hand flamer that he couldn't dodge. The hand flamer gave him roughly a 32% chance of honestly just death .... I've only ever seen one guy manage to put himself out. The rest have all burned to a crisp.

Subtlety loss has already been mentioned. While the Imperium seems rather relaxed in regard to side arms, a flamer is a weapon of war. Full stop. I do not need a role to have an "undercover" cell of acolytes being confronted by squad of enforcers, hailing them with weapons at the ready and demandin them to put down their weapons. Unless, of course, they act openly as agents of the Inquisition.

Flamers jam 1-out-of-10 times (10%) you use them (9 on the damage role). Keep that in mind an enforce it.

Flamer do NOT "auto-hit" a target. Everyin in the cone gets an Agility(+0) test. If that one is failed, It is a hit. Test again, if that one is failed, the npc is on fire. Make the tests. Yes, a lot of people will burn up. No, some might shoot back. THIS IS NOT DODGING! The rules test states an Agility test, not an evasive reaction.

Flames produce eat up air and produce heat and smoke . I used in close quarters, I would ask for Toughness test in the aftermath of the people and give a point of Fatigue to everyone who fails them.

Smoke gives a penalty to vision/ranged attacks. The second or third round after a flame was used, the penatiels for that might kick in.

Wanton destruction is bad for your Influence bonus at the end of the mission. Do not turn it into a negative, but only giving them "the token +1" is okay if they REALLY behave like arsonists.

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Throw flame bombs at them . Flame bombs and Awareness boni are the standard "added goodies" for my cultist/rebel/mutant NPC if the group isn´t subtle.

Arm there enemies with flamers, too. While I do not understand WHY the core rulebook states a flamer as a "common weapon in many gangs and cults" (really, WTF?!) I don´t see any fool play with having one of them in a mob of gangers/cultists. Pack the guy into the "second line", so that his comrades get it first.

(Houserule) reduce effective range: I made it clear to my players that only half of the "flamer range" is "straight line and everyone inside is in the target zone". If it goes furher then that, the nuzzle is lifted and the burning promethium is sprayed in an arc, going down as Radius (2) at the spot that the weapon was aimed at. If somebody isn´t having the Weapon Talent, this trick is not in their arsenal.

Do not fight in tunnels all the time: The flamer is "overkill" if all enemies are in the cone of fire. Next time a cult lair needs cleansing, make it two story building complex with a wide space in the middle. The building complex is entered through an arcway leading into the open middle square. From there, stairs lead up to walkways connecting all the different flats/habs.

The cultists are NOT sharing the same flat. Sure, 2 or 3 might share common quarters, but we are talking a dozen of them here. If your group isn´t subtle (and having flamers at the ready is NOT subtle) they might be able to catch one of them while these are preparing. Then, the other will open up fire from doors or windows. Add some civilians into the mix, it if it fits your needs.

A word about the damage of a flamer & the resistance of your "BBEG"

Consider your BBEG´s to have

Toughness: 40
Agility: 40
AP: 4
Touched by fates: 1 or 2

First and formost, this will "soak" 6 points of flamer damage (even after damage reduction)
Second, your chance of not getting hit are 40% per flamer attack (read above)
Thirst, your chance of not lighting up like a christmas tree are 40%.

The chances get even better if your BBEG uses HIS fate points to re-role failed roles for not getting hit/not lighting up. Please not that the 1d10 damage from being on fire is only bypassing armor, not the TB .

Yeah I have been doing flamers wrong then. I was using flame, but not spray. This should even things up a bit. Overall, two flamers in the squad will likely be problematic either way.

The real problem for me though is lockdown effect of an enemy being on fire.

Flamers jam 1-out-of-10 times (10%) you use them (9 on the damage role). Keep that in mind an enforce it.

Flamers jam a good deal more than 1 in 10 since they jam if any of the damage dice roll a 9. The more targets you hit, the more likely a jam. (5 targets gives you a whopping 40% chance to jam) Which is a dumb rule and makes no sense. I house rule flamers to still require a BS test solely for the purposes of seeing if it jams.

Being on fire is effectively a game over. There's not much you can do about that short of reworking the on fire rules or just never using them.

You know what's great about flamers with the canister loaded underneath like a supersoaker?

You're essentially holding a firebomb into a fire when you use them point blank.

Have fun with that.

I think what I'm seeing though is that this is a real problem for Dark Heresy GM's and not just me, so that's actually a real help.

I'm very officious about following rules and presenting the characters as they are in the campaign books. I do GM rule some stuff.

I do follow the rules for jamming flamers. So far none of jammed. It's just been poor luck. I do watch the rolls for a jam.

Astbestos marines

Ok, seriously:

Hereteks with not enough meat left on them to burn. Combat servitors that keep on comming untill they are ashes and bionics. Snipers. Chaos cultists with their own flamers. (More fire! bwahaha-ahem. would you sign up for a flamer duel?) Radical Inquisitor in power armor.

Fire Extinguishers?

The real problem for me though is lockdown effect of an enemy being on fire.

Yep, this is a real problem.. as being on fire SHOULD be. If you would have an excuse to use Combat Servitors, this would be less of a problem, so. I would have no second thought about having them simply fighting on, as most of every ordinary human reaction is supressed/exchanged for what was programmed into them.

But the cure regularly is to change the overall combat situation. What will your next session/mission will be all about? Where will your troupe be playing (world/location) and which is the general opponent? There should be a solution that does not need asbestos armour or anti-ignition-gels or such.

As I understand combat servitors are also effectively stunned by being on fire. They party has actually killed a gun servitor via setting it on fire. It is still bound by the rules of having to try and put itself out and it has garbage initiative and willpower to say nothing of potential for mindlock. You may give no second thought to them continuing to fight while being on fire, but the rules do not support this.

The next mission will involve them on a shrine world full of tunnels. It's chapter III of Forgotten Gods. As I understand they are going to be dealing with a lot more cultists and probably some minor demons.

This is the same group that shut down a demonhost by stunning it with a krak grenade and running it over with tractor.

Part of the problem though is a marine .... has to keep trying to put himself out once on fire and it's not that hard to catch one on fire.....

I would have the marine take damage as normal, but otherwise outright ignore being on fire until his fatigue threshold is reached, whereupon he simply collapses, if not dead already. But before that, even lit up like a torch, he acts normally. Makes him scary, but not unbeatable.

(...)

The next mission will involve them on a shrine world full of tunnels. It's chapter III of Forgotten Gods. As I understand they are going to be dealing with a lot more cultists and probably some minor demons.

This is the same group that shut down a demonhost by stunning it with a krak grenade and running it over with tractor.

Part of the problem though is a marine .... has to keep trying to put himself out once on fire and it's not that hard to catch one on fire.....

The Daemonhost you mentioned was lacking the "Stuff of Nightmares" Trait, then

@the next mission.

Oh...that one... I pitty you. Would you like to provide us with the Toughness Bonus and armor of your NPC, along with their relevant roles? I cannot promise anything, but perhaps I can frame some encounters in the tunnels that will give your characters some challenge while using there flamers, at least in the long run. Making flamer ineffective in a tunnel encounter is...hmm... nothing done easily and perhaps... a bad point to start with it. But I will see what I can do

What kind of tunnels? If they are in sewers/mines/imperial Industrial plants/underhive, then there could be pockets of flamable gass! Each time they use their flamer there could be a chance of things blowing up. (Things meaning the guy with the flamer and everything around him )

What kind of tunnels? If they are in sewers/mines/imperial Industrial plants/underhive, (...)

No, not that kind of tunnels. More the the dark "I am made of stone" kind of tunnesl with no industrial residue, gas pipes or such

@fog1234

I have read through the final part of said "mission"... and you are not that screwed. After all, you are not intend to fight the characters off inside that tunnels but to give them a nice creepshow ride, perhaps having them ecounter enemies when their subtelty fails them. In regard to the real scene to engage the BBEG...

• the room is large (400 square meters), so you can make it like 20 x 20 meter. This is still flamer range, but gives your opponents enough space to spread over, to avoid getting killed in one blow

• at the beginning, you have about 50 people in said room....

• you can add to groups of guards (using those with the "O" at the start). A group of 2 each, each at opposites walls of the rooms. Your characters -might- whipe one, but not both. And they seem well armed

• give the "leader" an Energy Field from the core rules. Do so. Trust me. It is not out of place with such a person and it will safe you some headaches

• have the group of "body guards" a seperate one (from the two mentioned)

• Ask a willpower test from your characters when they wittness the scene that is going on there. Every degree of faiilure is leaving them stunned for a moment, and giving the two guard groups a +10 on detecting them (if they were stealthy to begin with).

• Only give the characters three rounds before the ritual is completed. With more time, they WILL kill the leader of it.

If you are interested, I will try to come up with some encounters for the tunnels that are spooky and/or good obstacles

Yeah I'd be interested to look into some new encounters. If you are lucky it will end up in a photo essay, but my standards are very high.

I would recommend using the Mind Lock rules for (+20 Int) instead of Willpower on any servitor caught on fire, thus staying within the rule of rules. Servitors really should not be stunned by flames in the same way as humans, there is no in-universe reason a lobotomized automaton would care about being on fire unless it is equipped with some sort of automated fire-extinguishing drill, though the inputs could confuse the systems.

Or just put them up against enemies with Frenzy, as they would not care too much.

Flamers are powerful at close range, but any prepared enemy with guns can keep them away almost indefinitely - just have a few of them putting down suppressive fire, while others shoot straight. Flamers are intended to be weapons of terror and carnage against the fearful and unprepared, but their pitiful range really limits their use against the worst of the worst. A bare 20 meters absolute maximum range versus the potential 400 meters of the common Autogun? I put my money on the bullets there.

The catacombs are dark. Very dark. So each time they use a flamer, I'd give the guards an Awareness check (+10/+20) to notice them. As these guards are not stupid, they won't charge into the flamer range. But as they also know the catacombs very, very well, they'll set up ambushes, try to attack from the back, do hit and run attacks. A surprised PC can't fire back for 1 round and is at +30 to hit. The Guardians of the Catacombs could have a literal blast with them.

Also you might to want to give the Guards some Flashbangs. They work absolute wonders in dark places. In such an environment I'd give the PCs a penalty to the resistance roll.

Mind lock would just mean that the servitor does nothing. I certainly agree they should't be stunned with flames, but the rules don't reflect this. They more imply that the servitor burns down and might be mind locked instead of stunned meaning they wouldn't even get a slim chance to put out the fire.

Well in real life flamethrowers are limited by the fact that they only have a few seconds of ammunition and require the soldier to walk around with an explosive backpack.

If I were a heretic with minimal supplies and the inquisition was approaching with flamers, here's what I'd do:

1) Grab the spare prometheum tank from my getaway vehicle.

2) Hoist it over the entrance to my lair on a pully.

3) When the flamerhappy folks step through, tip that puppy over their heads.