The most deadly part about Hydra to me is the extra deep ones token. Combining her and Dagon would be pretty hectic in that regard. The deep ones track is NOT friendly to low player games, which is what we usually do.

In regards to Hydra; yes, her abilities combine extremely well with Dagon, but she is more formidable than you might think on her own.

Played a game yesterday against Abhoth + Dagon and Hydra, a formerly unattempted combo, now: an undefeated combo =). Each monster surge gave us a minimum of 6 monsters: 4 (players) +1(Hydra) + 1 (child of Abhoth). No cultists for easy-kills either, ouch!!!

We were doing ok until late game when a couple of investigator deaths put monsters in the outskirts, and a few surges in a row added 2 terror, ripped all of our clues away and woke up Abhoth on doom, nasty. Granted it was the pairing that was the killer on that one, but difficult monsters thanks to Hydra/Abhoth were hounding us all game. When Ursula is looking at a Gug and thinking "maybe that's the 'easy kill' I need for my 3rd trophy.... " you know you've got problems.

Anyway, I'm rambling, but I still think that Hydra alone is at least as challenging as King in Yellow, or Dunwich Horror, and more so than Dark Pharoah. This puts her somewhere in the middle of the herald-difficulty list.

Hi,

I find myself buy BGoTW because I like the box and then, try to find a purpose to being a member of the cult and for the herald difficulty. Well, here is my conclusion: It is possible to beat the game very easilly but it could be either a very short winning game a humiliating defeat.

There is this one spell: "Call the Ancient One" using X monster thropies as a casting modifier and that will end-up calling the AO with removing X doom token. Mix that with the others spell : "Milk of the S...[i dont remeber the name well]" and "flute of the gods" to fastly gain monster tropies and call the AO with half his doom token. Clues required...

Being member of the cult could give you the opportunity, if you get the good cult encouter (pick investiguator that could choose in two encounter ), you may choose one spell of your choice.

Briefly, I have my team looking for spells.

Another good choice: When there is too much monster on the board, hexagon ant all, Milk of the S.. can be used to put them all in a corner, sacrificing one investiguator sanity to clear all gates to coodinatre a massive "Enter the gate to seal them at the same time a few turn later"...

My stats with base game + BGoTW : 2 win, 1 lose up to now using those strategies with 4 investiguators.

Lslx

Lslx said:

So you count final combat as win then?

(me so sad)

True, I've used that spell once, but Glaaki pisses me off, so I'll let one lapse fly. Otherwise, I want to win.

Get a hanky, Dam. This guy looks like a new player. Final Combat victories are just as good for new players, because they're learning the ropes; especially when using a tough-ish expansion like Black Goat.

I count final combat as win. A big win. Difference is, Epic Battle and various anti-gearing rules make a final combat victory a BIG deal. Since picking up Kingsport (with Epic Battle) I've won 13 out of 81 final combats (16%), and in none of those games I've done much gearing up (save the one or two weapons purchased over other items, and a blessing or two out of the church).

Thematically, I regard final combats on par with closing all gates: the entity is "driven away" for a few more milennia, but not banished like with six seals. Of course, if you want to get technical, as I continue to play this game, ALL of the Ancient Ones come back for more sooner or later

Then there's that one "combat win" against Bokrug. Hey man--he left me of his own volition! He could have mashed me into a pulp if he wanted, too.

Tibs said:

Hey, it's easier to mould their minds early ! Grognards are hard to change. I mean, look at me .

Tibs said:

Another reason I don't like EBs, they are supposed to make the final combat harder + unpredictable, not give away gimmie wins against impossible odds (fully-laden Bokrug with -8, double Immunity, 18 doomers and 4 attacks). Though Bokrug is the only one with that kind of lame card (argument could be made for Nyarly's "Join Me" I suppose) I think.

Hi,

I know it's been only a few months I own/play the base game (+Kingsport + BGoTW)... How much till I'm no more new player, Grognard Dam?

I always try to reach "High score", an old habit I have from old Pac-Man days... So I try to not to use Elder signs until I'm sure I can't win without them or when the terror track begin to rise... One point is one point! That make the sealing gates a little bit more clue-gathering pattern.

So, Please enlight me, why battle the AO is not a good victory? It it because there is too much hasard vs good sealing gate planning? I could agree to that since I'm the most unlocky to dice roll, I always try not to roll dice.

Lslx

A lot of people think that if you spend the whole game preparing for the final battle against the Ancient One, you'll probably get a very easy and hence cheap win.

Yeah, the true spirit of the game is to prevent the coming of the AO, rather than trying to kill it. Lovecraftian beings are, traditionally, unkillable. That is why expansion AOs are much harder to fight, Kingsport came out with the (awesome) Epic Battle decks, and Kevin came up with a house-rule or two correlating your number of seals to your ease of a final battle victory, should one arise (the idea is that gearing up for final combat until the very last minute is discouraged thus).

Dam personally lives up to the idea above and only considers final combat a "draw;" nevertheless he doesn't gear up even if sealing to the last is futile.

Base-game AOs like Hastur can be complete pushovers if you gear up soon and try to wake him up on purpose, especially considering that the extra 3 clues to seal gates is a discouragement against sealing. With Epic Battle and Kevin's clue-spending and green Epic Battle card limits, players will no longer want to jostle Hastur awake

There's nothing wrong with you regaling a final combat victory. But once you get enough plays under your belt, become more familiar with Lovecraft (if you're not already), and begin to crave tougher challenges in your games, you'll get a few expansions and then appreciate final combat victories in the way they're meant to be appreciated: that it's a true miracle you survived!

The thing is I think the stuff that makes final battles harder (epic battle cards, seal/clue rule) is only needed for some of the base game ancient ones. The expansion ones are plenty difficult. I'd love to see some kind of rule that discourages "final battle buildup", but the likes of Atach and Chaugnar don't need any more beefing up.

I can't speak for Chaugnar (or any of the Innsmouth AOs--brutal!), but Atlach-Nacha was designed that final combat and sealing were both supposed to be extraordinarily difficult, leaving you only the practical option of winning by closing gates. Ironically though, Altach-Nacha is the only AO for whom I've seen a Sinister Plot card that hurts you more the fewer seals you have on the board. Nevermind the fact that you'll probably only enter battle with zero or one seals.

OK! I'm convinced. Most stories I remind have the plot turn around one of the monster from Monster cup that is a hell of a fight/Evasion/Etc...

I even might change my strategy to be more pacific with AOs... Remind me of old Sierra games when you get more points by defeating the treat without killing it... So, I do agree that in that case, BGoTW seems sort of impossible to finish without the big battle... I read all the cards and I cannot see another way from the new stuff to reach such a goal easilly.

What about the Kevin clue-spending house rules? I really don't wish to browse a the forum search engine result throught all forum threads...

Kevin's clue rule is that no investigator may spend more clues during a round of final combat than there are seals on the board. For example, if the AO awoke and you had 1 seal on the board, Joe Diamond couldn't spend more than 1 clue to add to his shotgun attack against Yig. That also means that if he does spend that one clue, he cannot spend any during the Speed check to defend himself from Yig's attack. If he wanted to spend more, he should have lain more seals.

Kevin's other final-combat rule suggestion was that when you shuffle the Epic Battle deck, you randomly remove a number of green cards equal to 6 minus the number of seals on the board. Therefore, if you entered final combat with 4 seals on the board, you would remove 2 green cards. With 1 seal, you would remove 5 green cards.

Both these rules together fortify sealing as the priority victory condition, and put final combat where it should be: absolute last resort.

Tibs said:

That's the double punch though. It's almost impossible to win by having all gates closed with only 2 players, completely impossible with Atlach's gate bursts. The double impossible comes from fighting her with only 2 investigators.

Two investigators is probably not enough.

This rule of thumb works out very well:

To even stand a chance at winning, use 2 investigators, plus 1 for every board expansion. Add another 1 if you want a more reasonable chance.

In a full-expansion game, for example, I recommend 5 as a bare minimum, 6 as a comfortable minimum. I routinely play with 6.

Tibs said:

I think three or four investigators for a fully expanded game is certainly viable, though it's obviously harder than with more. We generally use 4 for all expansions (except when we have either three or more than four players). I'll admit that one or two gets very difficult, though, at least against any of the tougher Ancient Ones.

As for Atlach-Nacha, we've found it's doable with two investigators, if very hard. Closing the gates won't work, but with a little luck and a lot of coordination, sealing becomes viable. (Your odds also improve a bit if you have access to For the Greater Good and Walking the Ley Lines from Dunwich. In fact, the additional gates that Innsmouth and Dunwich provide make Atlach-Nacha one of the rare Ancient Ones that might get a bit easier for a small group with more expansions.)

GrooveChamp said:

This paragraph seems to suggest that you're misreading the rules. The term "monster surge" does NOT refer to a monster being generated when a gate opens. A monster surge ONLY happens when a gate would appear on a location where a gate already exists.

Tibs said:

Yeah, the true spirit of the game is to prevent the coming of the AO, rather than trying to kill it. Lovecraftian beings are, traditionally, unkillable.

Unkillable? Maybe.

Undefeatable? Apparently you've never read "The Call of Cthulhu".

Justin Alexander said:

'Cos everyone knows Derringer + Knife (or, what usually happens, Shotgun) = a frickin' ship .

Dam said:

Well, maybe the final fight is more abstracted than the rest of the combats: you use the Derringer and Knife to steal a ship.

You can steal a bigger ship with a Carbine Rifle, obviously.

Justin Alexander said:

A doom token IS added nearly every turn, either by a gate opening or a monster surge occuring for BGotW. The main exceptions would be sealed gates (as pointed out) and the occasional special card that brings 2 doom tokens (yikes), an Act card, a gate burst, etc.

Has anyone sealed Yig with the Black Goat herald?

avec said:

Doesn't look like it, unless I missed a log. Saw 5 Yig + BGotW games, all final combat, 3 wins, 2 losses.

mageith said:

Combining Black Goat with Innsmouth = Doom token OR deep one token every turn. At best a gate burst will undo a seal =(