Just wondering what everyon'e opinion is on the Black Goat herald. To us he seems ludicrously difficult, to point where he's easily over twice as strong as any other herald. He seems like an over the top joke response to hardcore players complaining the game was too easy. Something league players would pick because it gave x2 final score or something.

The extra hexagon monsters alone would make him plenty difficult, but oh my lord a doom token for monster surges? Basically he means that a doom token will be added every turn except for seals which would statistically delay the ancient one from waking for an extra turn or two if you no longer have monster surges to buy you time.

We have yet to play a Black Goat game where the Ancient One was prevented from waking. We haven't even come close. It's either be fully healed up (even harder with the extra monsters and moving dark young) and ready to kill him in ~11 turns or a loss. If we drew a super hard to fight ancient one like Yog-Sothoth we just say forget it and reshuffle. I can't imagine how you'd even have a statistical chance of sealing 6 gates in time with Hastur. We had to make a house rule to ignore the monster surge doom token simply because it turned the game into nothing but an ancient one battle.

So how does everyone else find the Black Goat? Is there something I missed that doesn't make him ridiculous? His difficulty over the other heralds goes way beyond Hypnos being the best guardian.

Well, I think you may not be giving due credit to some really tough heralds out there, specifically Dagon. But nevertheless, Yes, Black Goat is rediculous, and certainly is a contender for most difficult herald. Your complaints are legitimate, and I often feel that BG turns Arkham in to an AO battle, which is one of the reasons I dont intend to purchase BG expansion. I think that your house rule is an appropriate one though, I've considered it myself. Hex monsters and corruption gives a different spin on the game that is fun and worthy of a Herald's ability.

Nevertheless, it's not impossible. Some tips: Select investigators like Zoey Samaras, Mandy Tompson, or Ursula Downs. As many investigators as possible who start with a *lot* of clue tokens. Wendy Adams is naturally, a good choice for an early seal and a -1 doom to boot (dont worry about failing her story I say... who cares?) Seal early and often. Dont waste any time. Avoid killing hex monsters if you can. Therefore, a nice alternate route would be to play characters with bunches of sneak. Wendy again, Trish, Mark, Joe. You don't need to fight monsters in this game. Many of the heralds penalize you for high terror, but BG does not. So let the outskirts fill, only waste your turns on killing monsters if you absolutely have to.

I think it's a very difficult herald that will typically massacre small teams (unless you aim to fight the final battle). You could probably take it out by sealing (occasionally) if you selected investigators (and no, I don't mean a daisy/kate team where you search for arcane insight— but just four or five overpowered investigators). A very large team (7 or 8) might also be able to deal with it.

Sigh, another hate-mail on BGotW. Look at the stats . BGotW makes the investigators lose 40% of the time, Ghroth 50%! Where are the Ghroth-whining threads? I'm 6-4-2 (win-draw-loss) with the BGotW (one game each with the AH + DH GOOs), with random investigators each time. Heck, I got my first win against Ithaqua with the BGotW Herald after an insanely tense final 3-4 turns.

I agree with awp832 in what he says about not fighting monsters, though that is my normal approach, only fight when you have to. Monsters don't win you the game, gates do, need to stay on the ball, so to speak, not get distracted by chits of various colors on the board(s). Of course, some you want to take out.

Oh believe me, we waste no time. Straight to sealing.

But we either go totally random with investigators, or randomly pick 2 with your choice of 1. It's a lot more fun than "power stacking" the teams. Otherwise we'd just pick Joe Diamond and have the handyman give him his shotgun for ancient one slaughter.

I have no idea how Groth has a higher loss rate; he is objectively weaker than the Black Goat.

I always found that the larger teams get, the harder it is to beat ancient ones in the final battle (especially ones that eat up limited resources like trophies), and only with very large teams do you have a shot at winning by having no open gates instead of sealing.

Now the Innsmouth board makes the Black Goat even more impossible. Every turn is a doom token unless blocked by a seal, but if it's blocked by a seal then you get a deep one token instead, and you can't afford to divert clue tokens from sealing to the FBI raid.

Oh well. The "no doom token on surges" rule works out well enough, and it's nice to actually have the chance to try out corruption cards. In ~20 games since Black Goat we have yet to have a single person even join the cult of a thousand (camping those spots for encounters is a BAD idea). I was just wondering what was going through the heads of playtesters when they designed the Black Goat. I honestly thought the doom token monster surge rule was part of the new difficulty variants.

Speaking of Dagon though, question: him and mother hydra cards mention that their effects are culmunitive with each other in games where they're both in play. Huh? Do they count as one herald together and always go in together? Are they talking about some unmentioned house rule with multiple heralds?

(also speaking of Dagon it's funny that I started playing the CoC Dark Corners of the Earth PC game right as I picked up the Innsmouth expansion. At first I thought every Innsmouth character looking like the exact same ugly hunchback was just the game artists being lazy)

Ah, okay I'm reading the stats thread and noticing all the Black Goat stuff.

I'm not sure I trust those herald/guardian stats though. The win percentages for all 3 guardians are nearly identicle, and I don't think anyone is going to argue that Bast is just as good as Hypnos.

Hard, certainly, impossible, not at all. It *verges* on impossible when you add Innsmouth, as you will then get a DoR or a doom every turn. Mix in a few more gate bursts and you're really cooking. Its especially unlikely you'll pull anything off against Yig with this combo, but its still doable if you call in the Feds.

I advise you not to give up hope. Take the losses on the chin and keep plugging away. Eventually youll seal something out for a win and it will all be worth it. Dont cheat yourself of that victory!

GrooveChamp said:

Most of my One of a Thousand Memberships have come from Corruption cards, very few from encounters. Moving Dark Youngs are so annoying. BGotW games are the one time I really hope I get Greater Banishment (in one game got it during setup, Pete was in the game and he got a draw a Spell encounter, so got to clear hexagons twice without combat). I think (too lazy to check), I got One of a Thousand in 10 of my 12 games with the BGotW Herald.

As I said in prior threads, the stats site will get more accurate over time, but Kingsport is a more difficult expansion than Black Goat and that carries a lot of weight. As more games are submitted where players will own and combine more expansions, the numbers will get more and more accurate. Chaugnar Faugn had the highest final battle difficulty but there's no way he's harder to beat than Quachil Uttaus.

I like a tough herald Dagon stings like the bee. In a terror-level intensive game, King in Yellow can be quite interesting. But a herald that so greatly shifts the investigators' chances to win from sealing towards final combat is often unwelcome. This is why I find it ironic that you like Black Goat so much, Dam, knowing how you don't count final combat victories as a full-out win (without Epic Battle, I don't necessarily disagree with you in most cases).

The thing about Ghroth is that he unloads all his pain up front. After that, his effect on the game is minimal, and even so, the investigators have control over further effects by choosing to sacrifice clues. With Black Goat, the "choice" you have to curb its surge ability lies solely in you rushing to close gates in an attempt to shift the statistics away from monster surges. But then the gesture is moot, because a gate opening on a closed (but not sealed) gate still results in a doom token.

I'll never turn down a game with Black Goat as the herald. But I will continue to regard the herald as I do many other components of Black Goat: not tested thoroughly enough.

Tibs said:

Do you ever turn down games at all?

Noting that I've contributed the second largest plurality of submissions on the stats page, and that most of those games are solo, then whenever other people offer to play Arkham, I am very excited. So, no.

Tibs said:

Sadly, I have to agree. Corruption was an AWESOME idea, but you so rarely get it to come into play, like exhibit items in Dark Pharaoh but even rarer. I can't imagine how testers thought it would ever come up outside of Black Goat herald games, and then it's pretty moot since you're just going to be quickly plunged into final battle anyway.

Tibs said:

See, I love the BGotW because I have to bring my best game. No lolly-gagging, get down to the nitty-gritty. I don't do starting equipment re-draws either (looking at you jgt7771 ). Finally drawing every Mythos card means something, normally surges mean free extra turn with no doomer to try and seal things.

Also, KH might be harder than BGotW, but since the latter didn't come with any GOOs, people presumably so GOOs from some big box when playing .

Oh, don't you drag me into this. I've always maintained that Arkham Horror is a "party game", despite the "horror" theme. Nowadays, more than half my games are with buddies, and take upwards of 5-6 hours, what with all the socializing. As such, I despise the Black Goat for being unnecessarily ACCELERATED. I'll play it when I'm alone, but with others, I would rather we not bottom out before the pizza shows up.

And since the Herald is the only way one is going to get ANY use out of the rest of the Black Goat set, I've "hacked it up" and adopted its cards into my Innsmouth box: Common/Unique/Spell cards (minus the silly "wake up the AO" ones), any Encounters dealing with Corruptions, Cult Deck/Memberships, and the Mythos Gate Bursts. I use the box to hold all the cards I don't use, and ALL the Epic Battle cards. Fits very nicely.

As for "starting equipment redraws"...first of all, I didn't come up with that one. (It was someone around here...was it Mageith?) And I'm not doing it to make my games "easier". If one of your Investigators draws two Tasks and a Mission...you still have three other Investigators to play with. If one of mine does...I have a VERY BORED PLAYER. And being very bored is NOT a good "hook" for Arkham Horror. (This is pretty much the same argument I use for Patrice: making a person into a "Clue warehouse" for other people equals a lousy time for that player. Not the same as when Patrice is just another sheet on the table.)

Bottom Line: I'm all about the lolly-gagging! And Arkham has spaces and spaces full of ways to avoid the nitty-gritty.

jgt7771 said:

The hook is that the investigator who drew those Tasks/Missions has real-life stuff to do, I mean, life does go on in the world, even while the GOO is trying to wake up. It's after the GOO wakes up that the rest of world takes notice . As to a bored player, heck 2 Tasks means they have a lot to do, why would they be bored ? Nobody is into trading equipment in your games?

As to Patrice, there is nothing stopping you from exploring places with her, even OWs. Nobody is forcing you to be a Clue-bank. Handing out Clues while doing your thang is still possible as far as I can see.

jgt7771 said:

Oh, don't you drag me into this. I've always maintained that Arkham Horror is a "party game", despite the "horror" theme. Nowadays, more than half my games are with buddies, and take upwards of 5-6 hours, what with all the socializing. As such, I despise the Black Goat for being unnecessarily ACCELERATED. I'll play it when I'm alone, but with others, I would rather we not bottom out before the pizza shows up.

And since the Herald is the only way one is going to get ANY use out of the rest of the Black Goat set, I've "hacked it up" and adopted its cards into my Innsmouth box: Common/Unique/Spell cards (minus the silly "wake up the AO" ones), any Encounters dealing with Corruptions, Cult Deck/Memberships, and the Mythos Gate Bursts. I use the box to hold all the cards I don't use, and ALL the Epic Battle cards. Fits very nicely.

As for "starting equipment redraws"...first of all, I didn't come up with that one. (It was someone around here...was it Mageith?) And I'm not doing it to make my games "easier". If one of your Investigators draws two Tasks and a Mission...you still have three other Investigators to play with. If one of mine does...I have a VERY BORED PLAYER. And being very bored is NOT a good "hook" for Arkham Horror. (This is pretty much the same argument I use for Patrice: making a person into a "Clue warehouse" for other people equals a lousy time for that player. Not the same as when Patrice is just another sheet on the table.)

Bottom Line: I'm all about the lolly-gagging! And Arkham has spaces and spaces full of ways to avoid the nitty-gritty.

Oh, don't drag me into this. OK.

The only redraw santioned by mageith is a mulligan on one skill (or what Emily can do when I'm not watching closely). Well, I do have about 20 "opportunities" strewn throughout my Common card deck that folks can redraw. Opportunities give a little incentive to do such things as Captain the white ship or take the bouncer job at Velma's or take a scientific voyage to the Mountains of Madness or get an experimental cure.

Almost all my games (80+%) are played with people and few are solo. I don't play Black Goat herald any more because its too fast and corruption cards confuse some of the gathered. In addition, no one can give a good explanation for joining the cult. However I have made up several heralds/scenarios that use corruption cards. And I have made up my own cards for cult encounters, some of which can lead to an alternate victory. No one has achieved this but two have died trying.

I suppose a redraw will usually make the game easier, but usually its reserved for not having to take the Master Occultist.

On the other hand, I've toned down both Patrice and Daisy because they are or can make the game too easy. And I play LESS expansions at a time in order to reduce dilution and make a harder game of it. At least I'm convinced its a harder game.

Many of the concessions I use, such as allowing players to choose their characters before knowing the GOO (though this is not really a concession since it is in the rules) is because I do play with groups of people and I want them to keep playing. You soloists can move along with bad characters as long as there are several other interesting ones, but I'd lose playmates if I forced that. Most of the gang has now played over 10 different investigators and seen the rest and have opinions on them.

Arkham Horror IS a party game! The threat of being eaten alive is not ordinarily an effective enticement.

Sorry, Mageith, didn't mean to call you out or put words in your mouth. It's just when I think "customization"...currently, I think Tibs and you. (I know I read that House Rule around here somewhere...)

You're right, Dam, and that sounds great in theory. But with that many Tasks/Missions, it just takes them too far away from the regular game, and doesn't really add to the "team atmosphere". And rarely does anyone want to trade for one of them.

I should just take Tasks/Missions out entirely, but I've already removed enough garbage cards from those decks that I don't want to mess with the crap-to-awesome-item ratio any more than I already have. Besides, for advanced players, there's still a chance that they'll actually accomplish it; Zebra finished his first with Finn in my most recent game, and I wager he would try another one in the future. But more than one? Sorry...just too much of a threat to The Fun.

jgt7771 said:

Hey thanks.

You can drag me into anything you want. I'm just not sure I should take credit for inventing the equipment redraw. But anything to make the game more interesting.

In fact I've attempted to take out the extra flamethrower and Tommy gun. One of them in a small town is probably more than is to be expected. It seems strange to me to see them just lying around.

So what was the thing with Dagon and Mother Hydra being in the same game at once? Is that just a house rule you can decide on to have multiple heralds?

GrooveChamp said:

It's not a house rule, it's listed on both Herald's sheet.

"Both Father Dagon and Mother Hydra may be used as Heralds during the same game. All of their effects are cumulative with each other. So, for instance, two uprising tokens are placed on the deep Ones rising track at the start of the game and after each time the Feds raid Innsmouth. "

GrooveChamp said:

As Dam said, Rules As Written...

But, hey, multiple heralds... Why not?

Mylo said:

Ghroth + RAW BGotW, any takers ?

Dam said:

Yeah, it was the "may" that confused me. You pick one and can decide if you WANT to include the other too? Good lord isn't Dagon enough by himself.

GrooveChamp said:

Dagon is a bad-ass no doubt, but Hydra, though I've seen it only once, looks very mild. Just +1 monster to Outskirts here and there. Of course, I'm still doing my IH GOO rotations, so no Cthulhu games yet.

Dam said:

Hydra's not very problematic alone, but in my experience her abilities combine with Dagon's in a way that really ramps up his difficulty. The increased number of monsters in the Outskirts, both from the improved surges and the direct additions (and the relative unpredictability of when they'll be added--with Hydra, it's not only during the Mythos phase) means that a lot more doom is added and a lot more clues are lost with the pair than with Dagon alone. And of course the shortened Deep One Rising track means that more precious clues will likely need to be spent there, too.

Add a few Personal Stories that fail to increase Terror or drain an investigator's clues and things can go south against the two of them very, very quickly.